To win a regional championship and to place well in a national championship? Can an "honest" team make it?
How good does an APA team need to be?
- Thread starter luckwouldhaveit
- Start date
I was captain of a team that made it to 3rd out there. We were pretty legit. We had no flags or dq's. Don't get me wrong, we were strong at 4 of our 8 numbers, but everybody on the team contributed with at least one win.
It can be done, but it takes a lot of luck and some good shooting by the whole team. Expecting a couple players to carry you probably won't get it done.
In our case, we ran into a couple teams that were short handed because of dq's. That definitely helped us out.
Good question
Short answer: Everyone, or at least 2-3 players need to bring their best game to the table every match. If your players have been playing honestly, and they're ranked accordingly, then you've got a chance if several players come in playing very well (for them).
Depending on who sees this thread, you might get a lot of negative feedback. Heck, you may be trying to start some, who knows? My input is from my experience as a PAINFULLY honest team captain and player, bringing my 8-ball team in 2007 and my 9-ball team in 2009. Going to Singles nationals this year for the 3rd time, so I've been lucky in my APA experience, and I've seen a good bit of what goes on out there.
You'll be really amazed at how under-rated SOME players are at the nat'l team championships. However, taking us as an example again, we were put out of the 9ball tournament last year by a team that finished 3rd, if I recall correctly, and we absolutely could have beaten them. We just didn't bring our best game that round (me included; I'm a 5 and I let an honest 4 come back some 20 points on me to win).
My best and only real advice is to stay honest, try to make it Vegas, and when you do, just have a good time!. Enjoy it, it's a fun trip and a great experience, even if you do come across douchebags who take it way too seriously and think they have to cheat "because everyone else does".
Good luck!
Short answer: Everyone, or at least 2-3 players need to bring their best game to the table every match. If your players have been playing honestly, and they're ranked accordingly, then you've got a chance if several players come in playing very well (for them).
Depending on who sees this thread, you might get a lot of negative feedback. Heck, you may be trying to start some, who knows? My input is from my experience as a PAINFULLY honest team captain and player, bringing my 8-ball team in 2007 and my 9-ball team in 2009. Going to Singles nationals this year for the 3rd time, so I've been lucky in my APA experience, and I've seen a good bit of what goes on out there.
You'll be really amazed at how under-rated SOME players are at the nat'l team championships. However, taking us as an example again, we were put out of the 9ball tournament last year by a team that finished 3rd, if I recall correctly, and we absolutely could have beaten them. We just didn't bring our best game that round (me included; I'm a 5 and I let an honest 4 come back some 20 points on me to win).
My best and only real advice is to stay honest, try to make it Vegas, and when you do, just have a good time!. Enjoy it, it's a fun trip and a great experience, even if you do come across douchebags who take it way too seriously and think they have to cheat "because everyone else does".
Good luck!
An honest team can't make it where I live! If your team doesn't have at least 2 under handicapped players (due to sandbagging) you can't win the city tournament to get to the regionals or nationals. It's a shame, but that's the way it is. I used to play league pool, but it just isn't any fun when your handicap is maxed out and you have to play someone who plays your speed and spot him a ton in order to win the match. I got sick of it after witnessing it over and over.......
As far as the regional championship, it depends on the number of teams that your area sends. But if the same teams go to vegas every year then that should tell ya something of your chances of going to Vegas.
Very true!
I agree. When I was in Vegas with my 8 ball team for the last National Championships,we were put one the one loss side by a team that had a few severely underranked players. I heard one player even went up 2 skill levels there. It's a tough pill to swallow but the teams that consistently make it to Vegas and place well will have underranked players.
Honest teams can make it but each player has to play the best to his or her potential. There also must be team harmony. Each player must support his or her teammates no matter what. I have seen many good teams break up because they have unnecessary drama. Hell I'm leaving my 9 ball team next session because all the drama has been unbearable sometimes.
In a word.... NO !
Last time I was in Vegas I saw a team get literally thrown out of the room because they had at least two but I think three players go up two skill levels in the tourney. They were from Colorado I think. I team can be crooked, but they need to be good at it or else they can get bounced.
When I was playing APA (stopped 3-4 years ago) Our 8 ball team made it out to Vegas on 2 occasions both times we were eliminated in 65th place. We might have won the matches we got eliminated in if we had gotten some lucky rolls. The team was on the level- Never had anyone raised in handicap while out there.
In my opinion, based on personal exprience, if your team plays up to their handicaps, nobody makes any bonehead plays and you do not end up playing one of the teams cheating you could conceivably get to 32nd or so.
Any farther than that, you will probably be playing a team that is under-handicaped and get the worst of it.
In my opinion, based on personal exprience, if your team plays up to their handicaps, nobody makes any bonehead plays and you do not end up playing one of the teams cheating you could conceivably get to 32nd or so.
Any farther than that, you will probably be playing a team that is under-handicaped and get the worst of it.
Here are some thoughts on what makes a successful APA team as far as handicaps and skills go. This post is incomplete and only covers a few things since I don't feel like writing a book on the subject.
First of all, you need winners. It doesn't matter what skill level they are, there are players that are winners and those who are losers. This has to do with attitude, competitive spirit and brain power. A good example is an SL3 that has been around a long time, knows a lot of moves in the game (smart), doesn't do anything silly or disastrous in their matches and who comes to win and never gives up. The reason they don't go up is because they don't possess the stroke and skills to run more balls and decrease innings.
Ideally, you want a team built of all players who typically produce winning percentages season after season, but who don't go up in handicap.
Next, you want players who are strong in their handicaps but who are unlikely to go up. Much the same as what I've said above, but a different angle on it. You want an SL5 that is at the upper end of SL5 in skills, but doesn't have the ability to get to SL6. Say two equally handicapped teams match up. 3v3, 5v5 etcetera. One team has players that are all strong in their handicaps - that team should crush the other team.
Sandbagging, a big part of APA play. Successful teams have good sandbaggers. A good sandbagger is NOT someone who is great at dumping (any clown can do that). A good sandbagger is someone who knows exactly how much to dump to keep the team successful, and who knows exactly how much to kick it into gear and win without going up. Sandbagging is the art of applying your higher skills in a way that leads to success within the rack without altering your handicap level. The APA is infested with these people.
I've seen way too many bad sandbaggers. Guys that dump all season and then turn it up when it counts. They over do it and go up in SL and get disqualified because of that. These are the idiots that get burned and usually either go away or get dropped from teams.
Scorekeeping. This is an important part of sandbagging and is basically cheating, but this post isn't about ethics, it's about what makes a successful APA team. The APA is about sandbagging and cheating without getting caught.
All the successful teams are also masterful scorekeepers. They put effort into making sure that safeties are not marked and to argue and pad the innings. If you have 5 innings marked for a game, they always have 6 or 7. If you have 3 safeties marked, they have 1 or none. They'll argue that they're right, and usually the other scorekeeper agrees cause they fear looking bad as if they weren't paying attention to the match missing innings (this is the case most of the time). When they don't agree, they often meet in the middle, which still works out for the sandbaggers.
The sandbagger, in collaboration with the scorekeeper will work to keep innings high. Usually it goes like this, the teammate scorekeeper says to their own player "was that a safe shot?" ...this is a PREEMPTION question that isn't sincere. The player as they walk away from the table goes "No, I was trying to make that in the corner" ...this works 95% of the time as the other team is oblivious to such tactics, and even if suspicious, they don't want to argue it or the human nature of believing people or giving the benefit of the doubt.
I could go on and on, but I'll move on to other aspects.
You need players that can play under the pressure of going to Vegas or while at Vegas. Avoid recruiting chokers and people who crack. There are so many players look and play great during the season, but become completely worthless in regionals. We're talking SL5's that beat everyone down, and then in regionals have the ball pocketing skills of an SL3 or SL2 because of pressure. Confident people who are focused and hungry to win is what you want.
As a captain, you should be open to all possibilities to win and advance. One of those is dirty dealings. Become friends and associate with a couple of other teams and work in cooperation with one another. Say you're in 4th place at it's the last week, you match up against your friend's team who isn't in the running - agree to have them all dump their matches to boost you to the playoffs. Likewise, do that for them if they are in the running and you're already qualified or not in the running.
This depends how close you are and they are with their players. Loose lips sinks ships as they say. If that trust level isn't there, then it can be done another way, by agreeing only with the other captain to get all the matchups you want. This isn't a guarantee to win, but it's better than nothing. You get all the match ups, he doesn't coach his players for victory.
Moving on,,,,,You don't want any careless players. Careless players are players that overlook things or don't pay attention to detail. Doesn't matter what skill they are. Details matter. What I'm referring to is awareness. You want players with good awareness. Are they alert and aware of the game's situation? They should know when to ask for a coach and when to not, or to not at all if it is agreed that the captain decides when they need one or not. They should always be aware of 8-ball scratches, dangerous game-ending shots at all times. No matter the skill level. This includes racking. Every player should learn to rack the balls well. This means, not leaving certain balls loose which facilitated the 8-ball being made on the break easier.
Good teams NEVER throw away matches. They force their opponents to earn every single rack. Players must have good discipline to avoid all risks, meaning no 8-ball loss of games. No accidental caroms into the 8-ball sinking it early.
A team that can eliminate all unnecessary wasteful losses like mentioned above will literally add anywhere from 2-3 up to 4-5 more points in the season. When you miss 3rd place by 1-2 points, the difference could have been just cutting down on the give aways.
Best way to do that is through education. Captain and higher levels should teach the lower levels what to look for. Also, all disasters that go unrecognized should be stopped using coaching. If a player has a dead scratch shot on the 8-ball and they are allowed to shoot without a coach, it's the captain's fault. This is a team breakdown. That's letting a train wreck happen without hitting the brakes.
You don't want flakes on the team. You want reliable people that will be there. Avoid people with special circumstances. Can't play before 9, can't play after 9 etcetera. Those with work burdens, serious health issues. People who can't play late cause the smoke irritates their eyes. Need a team of people who all can play their best game if called upon to play last, which may be as late as 12 or 1am.
Finally, no drunks. We've all heard the "he plays better drunk" nonsense. Yeah right. Just like everyone drives better drunk right? APA is a league full of drinkers, but if you want success - get players, not drinkers.
There you have a real basic primer that covers the basics, but is far from complete nor covers all the topics of APA success. There are heinous tricks and other tactics I'll refrain from sharing. Just keep in mind that the APA is a sleazy league and the scum rises to the top.
If you want gentleman play and more integrity, consider joining the BCA or a different league.
First of all, you need winners. It doesn't matter what skill level they are, there are players that are winners and those who are losers. This has to do with attitude, competitive spirit and brain power. A good example is an SL3 that has been around a long time, knows a lot of moves in the game (smart), doesn't do anything silly or disastrous in their matches and who comes to win and never gives up. The reason they don't go up is because they don't possess the stroke and skills to run more balls and decrease innings.
Ideally, you want a team built of all players who typically produce winning percentages season after season, but who don't go up in handicap.
Next, you want players who are strong in their handicaps but who are unlikely to go up. Much the same as what I've said above, but a different angle on it. You want an SL5 that is at the upper end of SL5 in skills, but doesn't have the ability to get to SL6. Say two equally handicapped teams match up. 3v3, 5v5 etcetera. One team has players that are all strong in their handicaps - that team should crush the other team.
Sandbagging, a big part of APA play. Successful teams have good sandbaggers. A good sandbagger is NOT someone who is great at dumping (any clown can do that). A good sandbagger is someone who knows exactly how much to dump to keep the team successful, and who knows exactly how much to kick it into gear and win without going up. Sandbagging is the art of applying your higher skills in a way that leads to success within the rack without altering your handicap level. The APA is infested with these people.
I've seen way too many bad sandbaggers. Guys that dump all season and then turn it up when it counts. They over do it and go up in SL and get disqualified because of that. These are the idiots that get burned and usually either go away or get dropped from teams.
Scorekeeping. This is an important part of sandbagging and is basically cheating, but this post isn't about ethics, it's about what makes a successful APA team. The APA is about sandbagging and cheating without getting caught.
All the successful teams are also masterful scorekeepers. They put effort into making sure that safeties are not marked and to argue and pad the innings. If you have 5 innings marked for a game, they always have 6 or 7. If you have 3 safeties marked, they have 1 or none. They'll argue that they're right, and usually the other scorekeeper agrees cause they fear looking bad as if they weren't paying attention to the match missing innings (this is the case most of the time). When they don't agree, they often meet in the middle, which still works out for the sandbaggers.
The sandbagger, in collaboration with the scorekeeper will work to keep innings high. Usually it goes like this, the teammate scorekeeper says to their own player "was that a safe shot?" ...this is a PREEMPTION question that isn't sincere. The player as they walk away from the table goes "No, I was trying to make that in the corner" ...this works 95% of the time as the other team is oblivious to such tactics, and even if suspicious, they don't want to argue it or the human nature of believing people or giving the benefit of the doubt.
I could go on and on, but I'll move on to other aspects.
You need players that can play under the pressure of going to Vegas or while at Vegas. Avoid recruiting chokers and people who crack. There are so many players look and play great during the season, but become completely worthless in regionals. We're talking SL5's that beat everyone down, and then in regionals have the ball pocketing skills of an SL3 or SL2 because of pressure. Confident people who are focused and hungry to win is what you want.
As a captain, you should be open to all possibilities to win and advance. One of those is dirty dealings. Become friends and associate with a couple of other teams and work in cooperation with one another. Say you're in 4th place at it's the last week, you match up against your friend's team who isn't in the running - agree to have them all dump their matches to boost you to the playoffs. Likewise, do that for them if they are in the running and you're already qualified or not in the running.
This depends how close you are and they are with their players. Loose lips sinks ships as they say. If that trust level isn't there, then it can be done another way, by agreeing only with the other captain to get all the matchups you want. This isn't a guarantee to win, but it's better than nothing. You get all the match ups, he doesn't coach his players for victory.
Moving on,,,,,You don't want any careless players. Careless players are players that overlook things or don't pay attention to detail. Doesn't matter what skill they are. Details matter. What I'm referring to is awareness. You want players with good awareness. Are they alert and aware of the game's situation? They should know when to ask for a coach and when to not, or to not at all if it is agreed that the captain decides when they need one or not. They should always be aware of 8-ball scratches, dangerous game-ending shots at all times. No matter the skill level. This includes racking. Every player should learn to rack the balls well. This means, not leaving certain balls loose which facilitated the 8-ball being made on the break easier.
Good teams NEVER throw away matches. They force their opponents to earn every single rack. Players must have good discipline to avoid all risks, meaning no 8-ball loss of games. No accidental caroms into the 8-ball sinking it early.
A team that can eliminate all unnecessary wasteful losses like mentioned above will literally add anywhere from 2-3 up to 4-5 more points in the season. When you miss 3rd place by 1-2 points, the difference could have been just cutting down on the give aways.
Best way to do that is through education. Captain and higher levels should teach the lower levels what to look for. Also, all disasters that go unrecognized should be stopped using coaching. If a player has a dead scratch shot on the 8-ball and they are allowed to shoot without a coach, it's the captain's fault. This is a team breakdown. That's letting a train wreck happen without hitting the brakes.
You don't want flakes on the team. You want reliable people that will be there. Avoid people with special circumstances. Can't play before 9, can't play after 9 etcetera. Those with work burdens, serious health issues. People who can't play late cause the smoke irritates their eyes. Need a team of people who all can play their best game if called upon to play last, which may be as late as 12 or 1am.
Finally, no drunks. We've all heard the "he plays better drunk" nonsense. Yeah right. Just like everyone drives better drunk right? APA is a league full of drinkers, but if you want success - get players, not drinkers.
There you have a real basic primer that covers the basics, but is far from complete nor covers all the topics of APA success. There are heinous tricks and other tactics I'll refrain from sharing. Just keep in mind that the APA is a sleazy league and the scum rises to the top.
If you want gentleman play and more integrity, consider joining the BCA or a different league.
Good insight, probably true many places
Bola has a lot of spot-on great insights about the type of player and the mentality that you need to foster if you want to win consistently.
It's sad to me that so many divisions are so dirty that they apparently inspire this kind of thinking. This is NOT necessary to be successful in every division/league. Period. Like SCC and other posters here have done, I'll quit if I ever decide that this is "necessary".
All I can do is lead by example. This type of paranoia is why there will always be people who think that I must be doing something underhanded; after all, I've been to Vegas 5 times in 7 years.
Sorry, I'll sell my cues LONG before I sell my integrity to win at POOL.
Bola has a lot of spot-on great insights about the type of player and the mentality that you need to foster if you want to win consistently.
It's sad to me that so many divisions are so dirty that they apparently inspire this kind of thinking. This is NOT necessary to be successful in every division/league. Period. Like SCC and other posters here have done, I'll quit if I ever decide that this is "necessary".
All I can do is lead by example. This type of paranoia is why there will always be people who think that I must be doing something underhanded; after all, I've been to Vegas 5 times in 7 years.
Sorry, I'll sell my cues LONG before I sell my integrity to win at POOL.
The old adage is that if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
The APA League I play in has such play. There may be some who are padding their innings, but if they are, it sure must be a small percentage. They definetely aren;t obvious. Pretty much everyone that I've seen or played with/against has been quite reasonable, and every dispute has been handled without too much drama.
Scorekeeping.... I do believe that could be tightened up some, but it doesn't seem as rampant as you (and others in EVERY thread about this) suggest.
Not everyone plays the same everywhere. This is the standard problem with these "APA" threads.
But my favorite of all favorites when this subject comes up.... "join a BCA or other league." When the numbers in those leagues rise to the levels of APA, those leagues will have just as many cheaters in them. Plain and simple. Cheaters will cheat, no matter whose League they are playing in. The greater number of players, the greater number of cheaters.
To the OP... My philosophy is this. I have to look at myself in the mirror each day. Cheating to do anything "in Vegas" isn't worth it to me. To others it obviously is. If we are luck enough to be able to go, I look forward to beating the cheaters. If given the opportunity. If not, I know how I did it, and will be glad for the experience.
Best of luck to you and your team.
I hate to disappoint you but you did indeed write a book. Your version is called fiction.
You do not need to sandbag and cheat to get to Vegas. I have done it 3 times since 1995 (2 8-ball, 1 9-ball) and I have not had a cheater or sandbagger on my team. One year we finshed 17th one year we finshed 65 th and the other year we went 2-2 and finshed 265 th.
To imply that you need to cheat is crap and that doesnt surprise me coming from someone who pushes the BCA at the bottom of the post. Perhaps you have a hidden agenda.
Having been to Vegas 3 times, I will say that I have never run into a team that has been full of sandbagges. I have run into a person or two playing above their head from time to time but that is fine with me. Just becuase they shoot a good game does not mean that they are sandbaggers.
It seems that all too often people use sandbaggers as an excuse as to why they didn't win. I, for one, would rather congratualte my competition on a match well played rather then make excusues why we didn;t win.
But then again, I am not filled with all the negativity that you. You want to whine and complian, go right ahead.
Bottom line is most of the teams that I see in Vegas are properly habdicapped and are pretty nice people to boot.
Well said
On this note, the solution is simple if you have a good League Operator.
1) Make sure your own score sheet is correct
2) If asked "how many innings do you have" or "4, right?", just answer like I do: "I've got ____ marked." The scoresheets don't have to match, specifically for the purpose of catching people who's scoring is out of line consistently with everyone else's.
Seriously. Keep your own ship in order, and don't worry about "agreeing" with the other team. It doesn't have to be a dispute, "The sheets don't have to match," usually ends the discussion pretty succinctly.
edit: On the "having a good League Operator" note, the idea of course is that your LO will notice the trend of disparate score-keeping of the offending teams and proceed with punitive action. My LO is not afraid to make it clear that that BS is not acceptable. He's no saint either; he once played on a team known to lay down to keep SLs low, and who quit after going to Vegas and having most of the team's SLs elevated. It's possible to change your outlook, believe it or not.
On this note, the solution is simple if you have a good League Operator.
1) Make sure your own score sheet is correct
2) If asked "how many innings do you have" or "4, right?", just answer like I do: "I've got ____ marked." The scoresheets don't have to match, specifically for the purpose of catching people who's scoring is out of line consistently with everyone else's.
Seriously. Keep your own ship in order, and don't worry about "agreeing" with the other team. It doesn't have to be a dispute, "The sheets don't have to match," usually ends the discussion pretty succinctly.
edit: On the "having a good League Operator" note, the idea of course is that your LO will notice the trend of disparate score-keeping of the offending teams and proceed with punitive action. My LO is not afraid to make it clear that that BS is not acceptable. He's no saint either; he once played on a team known to lay down to keep SLs low, and who quit after going to Vegas and having most of the team's SLs elevated. It's possible to change your outlook, believe it or not.
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Don't shoot the messenger. I'm not saying to do it, I'm pointing out what makes a lot of team successful in the APA. Some legit teams and legit players will get offended as if all that applies to them. It doesn't. For the few of you who battled it out the honest way and took the high road, great job. It wasn't easy making through the minefield of sandbaggers, cheaters and scum.
I don't play APA. But I know a lot about it because I once did. What a mistake that was. Then again, it wasn't - it helped me appreciate how much better other parts of the pool world are.
You're right, it is easy to get offended/defensive when you think you're getting knocked. I appreciate you making the above distinction both in your original post and this one.
Bola Ocho- Nice post, basiclly spot on.
I play apa, not because I like it, but because my dad plays and some close friends of mine play also. They are all around the 4 level and its about the only way I get to enjoy pool with them.I myself am a 7 so I basiclly play the other teams best player and let all my guys bang balls with the other teams players untill 1 team accidentaly wins the night. Its torture but hey- these guys arent going to play in big cash tournaments with me or anything so what the hell, 7 bucks a week.....
Anyone who truely believes you don't need to sandbag to win.....lol tell another one buddy.
Come play in our division, we give 3s break and run patches.
I play apa, not because I like it, but because my dad plays and some close friends of mine play also. They are all around the 4 level and its about the only way I get to enjoy pool with them.I myself am a 7 so I basiclly play the other teams best player and let all my guys bang balls with the other teams players untill 1 team accidentaly wins the night. Its torture but hey- these guys arent going to play in big cash tournaments with me or anything so what the hell, 7 bucks a week.....
Anyone who truely believes you don't need to sandbag to win.....lol tell another one buddy.
Come play in our division, we give 3s break and run patches.
:rotflmao1:
So true.
Sad part is, real SL3's often bang balls around for 10 innings per rack :yikes:
Great post Doc. What you say is very true. There are folks (like myself at one time) that played because they had friends or family in the APA and got dragged in or it was the only way to play pool with them. They couldn't come and play in an A tournament. Just a night out to get out of the house.
I've found 1-2 drinks before my match makes me more relaxed and play better.
My team are currently #1 and crushing the opposition. We are certainly not "scum". We play and score fair and no one is sandbagging. We always play to win. We practise. We're hungry for success and our excellent captain *really* wants to take us to Vegas. We're not there primarily to socialize and booze. We're there to win at pool and win our league. Maybe that's why we're winning?
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