Aiming systems

I could explain it in a 45 second youtube video...I gave the guys in the cte the info they needed to figure it out. Nobody but 1 or 2 guys put in the time to get there. I said from the beginning I wasn't going to post a dissertation (like the cte math thread, which is close but not quite).

There'll be a time when I post another youtube video. It might be soon.

Dave
 
Well I think CTE is the nuts. Tonight I ran a three pack using it. I decided to man up and figure it out this afternoon and I did and when I went to play I finally got it and was making balls from everywhere. The ONLY balls I missed were because I jerked my arm off line or jumped up - all because I didn't TRUST the shot because I was on an unfamiliar line.

Someone else in this thread (or maybe it was the other one) said something about CTE not accounting for cheating the pocket. Not true. Once you are sitting on the PERFECT line to make the ball dead center then you can EASILY see what you need to do to cheat the pocket to the left or right.

This system is like cheating. Seriously, that's how it feels to me. When I slice balls in from seemingly impossible positions and the people looking on are literally clapping it's a great feeling.

It's an even better feeling to be able to run out easily.

Why chase a ghost when I have something tangible to aim at?

I gotta give up major props to Dave Segal for trying his best to explain this to people. Honestly, I don't get the air pivots, and the hip pivots and the shot arc although I am sure I would if I tried. But when I use the basic center to edge I find that I automatically pivot into the line and it works. And BHE - Backhand english works perfectly with it.

I was making the most beautiful shots tonight. Feathering balls in with precision and bring the cue ball under other balls with inside english. Powering balls in on 4.25" pockets to force position.....etc..... it was great.

Even though I lost the set to the house pro 8:7 I still played great and didn't miss much.

So keep your ghost ball - I won't even use it for beginners. I will flat out bet that I can make more shots using CTE than any non-pro on this board who uses ghost ball. Lets set up dual web cameras and battle it out live :-)

I have $50 that says out of 16 shots in Colins's test I will make more than any ghost ball user on this board - any takers?????

We do it in real time using JustinTV and Ustream.

Or if anyone wants to up the ante a little I will bet a couple hundred on Spidey that no Non-Pro who has an AZ account and does not use any of the reference point aiming systems will beat him in Colin's test.

Here, I will go you all one better. I will PAY the first person who puts up a video of themselves equalling or beating Spidey's 15 as long as they tell us what method of aiminf they are using and how many tries it took to get that score. I will paypal you $50 if you can put up a video by the end of April that shows this.

Forget talking about it. Show us. And yes I will try it as well to see how I do. I'd like to keep my money if I can. :-)
 
I have $50 that says out of 16 shots in Colins's test I will make more than any ghost ball user on this board - any takers?????
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Why limit it to this board? Go wild and take on all ghost ball users. Did I read tony robles uses it?
 
JB Cases said:
I will paypal you $50 if you can put up a video by the end of April that shows this.
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I don't think it was 15/16, I think it was 16/17 because I shot one shot over (3 times instead of 2) and made it.

Can I get $100 if I get 16/16? I think I can.
 
enuf awreddy!

O.K. , O.K. I'll give CTE a try . At my age I gotta learn new stuff just to keep even.
 
"Gosh system 'A' didn't work for me as well as system 'B', so system 'A' must suck."

John:

I personally applaud you for implementing something -- even if you don't know the hows/whys/inner workings of it -- into your pool game to better your pool game, and are reaping the benefits.

While your excitement and exuberance for CTE is admirable, humbly, I need to remind you that what works for *you* is not a "be all, end all" for everyone.

I keep trying to remind folks like you that different people have different skillsets, different abilities, different... well... ok, "gifts" if you will. You keep making comments like, "Why chase a ghost when I have something tangible to aim at?" This leads me to believe that you're not quite getting it -- that you really don't understand how some people can really "see" that ghostball, clear as day.

I'd responded to Spidey in one of the other CTE threads about my personal ability to see that ghostball so clearly, that pool, for me is like playing whack-a-mole. Spidey may see the CTEL just as well as I see the ghostball. Spidey calculates his "fire control solution" based on that CTEL. I don't have to -- what I "see" is the solution, and I see it clear as day. I don't think you understand the concept of this; that you're grasping it. Instead, you're letting your exuberance for CTE get in the way of understanding that other folks have different skillsets than you do. I'm not trying to say you suck at ghostball; I'm just trying to say that folks successful with ghostball probably have extended capabilities with it over and above you.

Another thing; about your challenge -- I would love to take you up on it, if not for the following obstacles:

1. You already ruled me (and a good number of others out) with the "non-pro" proviso.

2. I'm not set up for video recording. (Yeah yeah, I know, "but Sean, don't you work in Information Technology as your day job?" And that's precisely why. In the interests of leading a balanced life, I don't take that sh*t home! I admire those like yourself that work in the pool industry. Quite frankly, I'm rapidly getting to the point where I'm sick of I.T., and I'm thinking of a career change to something more pool-related like Jude Rosenstock did, but I digress...)

The interesting thing is, the most vocal "prove it, show me a video of you doing such-and-such potting/pocketing challenge" types, are the CTE boosters. And it makes sense why -- certain closed-minded types challenged (or just plain wrote-off as nuts) those that embraced CTE, and thus they (the CTE embracers) are in a position to defend themselves. You said it yourself, when you described your first "aha!" moment with CTE, when you posted your experiences with it back in the RSB days. It's unfortunate that folks do this -- to poke issue at those that "break conventional" to try something new and like it. I personally support folks trying something new -- I've never made any bones about that. I just take issue with those that try something new, have success with it, and then go on to say that the previous way of doing things is "just plain flawed -- the whole system is broke" because it didn't work for him/her. And they do so completely in the face of pros that are still using the "old system" and are still having much success with it!

You probably won't get many (if any) bites on your challenge, because of your non-pro proviso, and because it appears the most vocal "break conventional chastisers" (i.e. the CTE doubters) are those that couldn't do any better on the challenge anyway. (That's not to say they're all keyboard Olympians -- some may be, while others may just have full-time careers that have nothing to do with pool, but instead are pool enthusiasts.)

A couple weeks ago, I ran a 126 in 14.1. My high run in one pocket is 15 and out (yes, an entire rack, starting from a ball pocketed on the opening break). The room I play at, Iron Willies in Yorktown Heights, NY, is working on getting set up for a video feed, so that they can stream the straight pool league and tournaments. Perhaps then I'll have video capabilities and can take you up on your challenge, even if I've already been disqual'ed.

On a personal note, it was a pleasure meeting and chatting with you at SBE. It's too bad that both of us couldn't hook up for some friendly 1P action (you due to your hectic booth schedule there, and me with the tournament). I'll PM you when I get a moment so we can chat.

Warmest regards,
-Sean

JB Cases said:
Well I think CTE is the nuts. Tonight I ran a three pack using it. I decided to man up and figure it out this afternoon and I did and when I went to play I finally got it and was making balls from everywhere. The ONLY balls I missed were because I jerked my arm off line or jumped up - all because I didn't TRUST the shot because I was on an unfamiliar line.

Someone else in this thread (or maybe it was the other one) said something about CTE not accounting for cheating the pocket. Not true. Once you are sitting on the PERFECT line to make the ball dead center then you can EASILY see what you need to do to cheat the pocket to the left or right.

This system is like cheating. Seriously, that's how it feels to me. When I slice balls in from seemingly impossible positions and the people looking on are literally clapping it's a great feeling.

It's an even better feeling to be able to run out easily.

Why chase a ghost when I have something tangible to aim at?

I gotta give up major props to Dave Segal for trying his best to explain this to people. Honestly, I don't get the air pivots, and the hip pivots and the shot arc although I am sure I would if I tried. But when I use the basic center to edge I find that I automatically pivot into the line and it works. And BHE - Backhand english works perfectly with it.

I was making the most beautiful shots tonight. Feathering balls in with precision and bring the cue ball under other balls with inside english. Powering balls in on 4.25" pockets to force position.....etc..... it was great.

Even though I lost the set to the house pro 8:7 I still played great and didn't miss much.

So keep your ghost ball - I won't even use it for beginners. I will flat out bet that I can make more shots using CTE than any non-pro on this board who uses ghost ball. Lets set up dual web cameras and battle it out live :-)

I have $50 that says out of 16 shots in Colins's test I will make more than any ghost ball user on this board - any takers?????

We do it in real time using JustinTV and Ustream.

Or if anyone wants to up the ante a little I will bet a couple hundred on Spidey that no Non-Pro who has an AZ account and does not use any of the reference point aiming systems will beat him in Colin's test.

Here, I will go you all one better. I will PAY the first person who puts up a video of themselves equalling or beating Spidey's 15 as long as they tell us what method of aiminf they are using and how many tries it took to get that score. I will paypal you $50 if you can put up a video by the end of April that shows this.

Forget talking about it. Show us. And yes I will try it as well to see how I do. I'd like to keep my money if I can. :-)
Click to expand...
 
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CreeDo said:
Why limit it to this board? Go wild and take on all ghost ball users. Did I read tony robles uses it?
Click to expand...

I said non-pros.

Because pros have their game wired. At least it's wired to a much higher gear than the rest of us. So I think that they have aiming pretty much down cold by time they are recognized as professional class players.

It has been reported that Stevie Moore is a reference point aimer. For pro competitions based on pocketing balls I will put Stevie in as my horse against reported ghost ball user Tony Robles.

They can do the Colin Colenso test and each of them can have five swings and whoever has the best score wins.

Now me personally I am giving the whole board a huge handicap. Even if I aim every ball perfectly my mechanics are so bad that I will be lucky to have a 50% success rate in the test. But I am going to try it anyway.
 
I use the ghost ball method and I love it. It works for me. Its simple and it works. Why anyone would use anything else, I don't know. I see the shot and the shot to me is not just making the OB but also getting shape repeatedly.

Of course, I've shot alot, I mean ALOT of balls.

The challenge is useless. It proves nothing. You are trying to take the person out of the equation. Meaning that you beleive its the system that makes the shot and not the player.

I do not do set up drills. Why, cause I ain't never seen any of the setup drills come up drilling a match. Try CTE when you got to go rail first behind a ball to pocket a ball. I can see that type of shot, but then again, I practice that type of shot.

One of the other reason I use it is because of Babe Cranfield, a great player. His Arrow method is based on the ghost ball and it sure worked for him and it works for me.

Saying a pro has is game wired is just insulting to us that have our game wired. I've got my game wired. I know what works for me, I know why I miss when I miss and I know what not to do next time.

I would never show anyone any other way to aim.

People that tout this system and such are just looking for shortcuts, like cheat codes in video games. Well, there ain't none.
 
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Sean,

Real quick because I have to go to bed. I agree with eveything you said. I also agree that some people have a better sense of spatial relationships between objects.

If I ask you to draw me a five inch line or fold a piece of paper to exactly five inches then it's likely that you will be within a few mm of 5 inches. Other people might be off by as much as two or three inches.

I was a competitive diver - I understand visualization. I understand how ghost ball works and I can see the ghostball as well. In fact I use a ghost ball all the time in the double the distance one rail kicking system I use taught to me by Jimmy Reid.

But for whatever reason using the ghostball never worked well enough for me - perhaps it's my vision that is the issue in that I was seeing the ghostball just fine but not in the right spot.

Since meeting Hal I have asked a number of top pros how they aim. And I have found that they tell me many ways that they aim which don't involve using ghost ball. I have spoken with Rodney Morris about this and others because I was curious to know if Hal Houlse was full of crap or not. I mean I now that what he taught me works and works well. But he claimed that a lot of top pros use aiming methods that are the same and similar to what he teaches.

So being fortunate enough to know many pros I asked them. None of them had heard of Hal Houle but several of them told me of various methods they use to aim that I had never seen in any book or video on the subject.

My point being that although we are having this discussion and many people fall on the feel and instinct and hit a million balls side of the discusson, the fact is that these systems and methods have been out there for a long time, they just weren't put into any best selling books.

Now, back to the ability to visualize the ghost ball. I understand that you can do it perfectly and that it sits there in teh right spot and looks as real to you as any other ball.

I would ask you to consider that most people can also see the ghost ball but that they may see it in the wrong spot and think that they are in the right spot. If however these people are given an alternative, such as being able to line up the edges of the balls, i.e. have two points on a line to reference then they may be able to consistently get on the right line to pocket the ball for the first time in their lives.

I mentioned diving to you. We had a 12 year old kid on the team who could do more than all of us including the older members of the team. Everything came effortlessly to Travis. Where I and others had to train harder and imagine more he could just do it. Where it might take me a week to master a new dive he could do it in a few hours.

So I agree with you that people like you are lucky to have the ability to just see it. I submit that this doesn't work for the majority of people or else there would be a lot more like you.

In any event the thread was started to knock the reference point aiming systems and that's the only reason I jumped in to defend them.

Next time we will make some time to play some one pocket for sure. Shows like the SBE aren't ever conducive to hanging out and playing some, especially if you're working the show. But that doesn't stop me from wanting to.

Stay in stroke!
 
duckie said:
I use the ghost ball method and I love it. It works for me. Its simple and it works. Why anyone would use anything else, I don't know. I see the shot and the shot to me is not just making the OB but also getting shape repeatedly.

Of course, I've shot alot, I mean ALOT of balls.

The challenge is useless. It proves nothing. You are trying to take the person out of the equation. Meaning that you beleive its the system that makes the shot and not the player.

I do not do set up drills. Why, cause I ain't never seen any of the setup drills come up drilling a match. Try CTE when you got to go rail first behind a ball to pocket a ball. I can see that type of shot, but then again, I practice that type of shot.

One of the other reason I use it is because of Babe Cranfield, a great player. His Arrow method is based on the ghost ball and it sure worked for him and it works for me.

Saying a pro has is game wired is just insulting to us that have our game wired. I've got my game wired. I know what works for me, I know why I miss when I miss and I know what not to do next time.

I would never show anyone any other way to aim.

People that tout this system and such are just looking for shortcuts, like cheat codes in video games. Well, there ain't none.
Click to expand...

In fact CTE works for those rail first shots to.

If GB works for you then great. I said the EXACT same thing in my opening post in this thread.

I don't know you but I'd bet that in the first 15 years of my pool playing life life I played as much or more than you did using GB. I played all over the world and frequently played for money. I didn't learn Hal's system until I was 32.

So I understand pool and I understand the million balls method. And I understand thinking you know all there is to know about pool.

When I was called to meet Hal I didn't think that he could show me anything of value.

In fact I spent the first half an hour that I was with Hal checking out the other side of the room at Paradise billiards in Denver looking for someone to get in action with and only half listening to him.

Luckily for me and my game I settled down and started to absorb what he was telling me.

Now you can dismiss what I have to say all you want to. That's fine. You are happy with where your game is at and so was I back then.

I learned something new that wasn't taught in the "Standard Book of Pool", wasn't covered in the billiard mags, wasn't on video.

Now, in the intervening 10 years Hal's methods have been discussed and dissected, they have been appropriated and used as the basis for other methods, other aiming systems have come to light. Pros like CJ Wiley and Joe Tucker advocate and teach aiming systems of their own.

So it's not as if it's all hype and smoke and mirrors. These systems have credibility, they work. Whether YOU want to learn them has no bearing on that.

Ghost ball is inferior.

The reason that it is inferior is because it relies on the person using it having the ability to imagine a non-existent object and to place that non-existent object in the right space and then subsequently when combined with it's evil twin shifted english, to properly calculate the amount of deflection and adjust for that.

Reference Point aiming is superior because the player gets to align the balls he is using and use parts of them that he can see to insure that he is lined up correctly. That coupled with the magic of Back Hand English allows the player to cancel out deflection and so reduce or eliminate the need to guess how much he needs to compensate for it.

Now I will let you in on a little secret about "the pros". The pros in the old days were a closed club. You didn't get in the club unless you showed talent and gamble. They didn't show you things out of the goodness of their hearts.

One of my friends ran with Buddy Hall for a while. They were on the road together for weeks and while driving down the road my friend would ask Buddy about how he played, what he did, how he aimed etc... and Buddy would not talk about it. Finally after being on the road for many weeks Buddy came out one day and offered ONE tidbit about how he aims.

This friend of mine told me about it and swore me to secrecy. When I learned his method it was another one of those moments where I knew that a whole other level exists in pool that I know nothing about.

Now you might know these thing that I didn't know. I have no clue who you are or what you know. But I can tell you flat out that my friend rolled into town as an unknown person and proceeded to bust some of the best players in town on the bar table without ever showing his top gear. And these players that he busted are BCA League national champions.

So when I say that the pros have their game wired. I mean that when they play they really do have their own game properly clocked due to the fact that most of them are privy to the higher levels in pool that players like me only get glimpses of.

You say my challenge doesn't mean anything? Maybe not but it's not my test it's Colin Colenso's. And I find it interesting that you dismiss it because it's not game situation according to you. Yet Joe Tucker wasn't too stuck up to try it and post his results on YouTube.

And you dismiss drills as well but Neils Feijen got to where he is by doing drills. That's World Champion, Neils Feijen.

So good for you that you feel great about your game and seem to feel you have nothing more to learn. If we ever end up in the same pool room at the same time I will be happy to gamble some with you and you can take my money to prove that your GB method beats my RP method.

Until then I guess we will just have to each do our own thing.
 
CreeDo said:
It's often taught to beginners but that's not because it's "for" beginners. It's taught because it's easy and correct and doesn't need hours of experience (which isn't to say you don't need hours to make balls. But you can see where you're supposed to aim right away).

Throw and whatnot can cause a ball to go on a different line than the one the ghostball suggests, but you have to know the line the ball's supposed to take before you can adjust for that stuff. It isn't useful to learn the "throw line" because that will change depending on spin, speed, and ball conditions. But the "ideal line" doesn't really change.
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I think its correct only for beginners, because beginners do not have the proper mechanics to execute in a manner that drives balls towards the hole. Then after their mechanics are pounded into them this way....they believe its the proper way to send balls.But if you observe the better players, they don't really aim.

I believe some of what we think is happening is incorrect. Like all that spin and throw stuff-should not be accounted for once you're able to hit the balls better. Years ago I was helping a friend set up his bar. To prove something to me he spun the cue ball with his hand as fast as he could and sent it towards another ball driving it into the corner pocket. he did it again and again with the same results-no effect transferred onto the object ball, well not that I saw.

I think whats more important is to know how to play certain shots to make your hole open. For example, outside in shots play to hit the long rail first on certain angles, that is if you're playing on legit equipment. On a straight in shot, if you send the cue ball to the object balls ghost position, the shot will be off-lined.
 
"...if you send the cue ball to the object balls ghost position, the shot will be off-lined."

Why would that be?
 
"On a straight in shot, if you send the cue ball to the object balls ghost position, the shot will be off-lined."

Me also...Why????
SPF=randyg
 
searcyD said:
Then after their mechanics are pounded into them this way....they believe its the proper way to send balls.But if you observe the better players, they don't really aim.
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Well, first, what do you expect to see better players do when they aim? Hold up a little sign? When you see a better player down in front of the shot, taking practice strokes and moving his eyeballs around... he is aiming. Just like you and I do. They don't use the force to make the ball. They aim like any other pool player. And sometimes even top level pros walk up to a shot and point their tip in a line where the CB and OB are gonna touch (in other words, a form of ghost ball).
-----
You sound like they're saying beginners are taught incorrect stuff that makes ghost ball work. But there's nothing to ghost ball. It just says put the cue ball in a place so that the cue ball and object ball will be in a straight line that points at the pocket. In most cases that will put the ball in the hole. Once the beginner starts noticing it doesn't ALWAYS put the ball in the hole, you can explain why and help him figure out how to adapt.

Like all that spin and throw stuff-should not be accounted for once you're able to hit the balls better. Years ago I was helping a friend set up his bar. To prove something to me he spun the cue ball with his hand as fast as he could and sent it towards another ball driving it into the corner pocket. he did it again and again with the same results-no effect transferred onto the object ball, well not that I saw.
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Are you saying you don't think throw exists? Then why do you advocate a little outside on rail cuts?

And what did you expect to see? The ball went into the hole and was only on the table for a second. You had no chance to see the effects of the spin. If you're saying you expected the ball to get thrown out of the hole and miss the shot... well, did he set it up fairly close to the pocket or far away? If a ball is close enough to the hole, it's going to drop no matter but. But I bet he didn't finger-pool those shots from 3-4 feet away. From further away, throw WILL kick the ball sideways enough to make it miss.

If you have any doubt of this spend some time on this site and watch the videos:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html

...and yeah, on a straight in shot if you send the CB into the ghost ball, the ball goes in. Ironically you picked the one kind of shot where ghostball always works 100%. I think you maybe don't know what ghostball is?!
 
CreeDo; Are you saying you don't think throw exists? Then why do you advocate a little outside on rail cuts? And what did you expect to see? The ball went into the hole and was only on the table for a second. You had no chance to see the effects of the spin. If you're saying you expected the ball to get thrown out of the hole and miss the shot... well said:
http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html[/url]

...and yeah, on a straight in shot if you send the CB into the ghost ball, the ball goes in. Ironically you picked the one kind of shot where ghostball always works 100%. I think you maybe don't know what ghostball is?!
Click to expand...

If you don't butcher balls, there will not be a need to account for throw.

Str8 in shots are the hardest of all shots. They account for most of my missed shots, prolly everyone else also. gotta go...talk later about this. bye.
 
"Then why do you advocate a little outside on rail cuts?"

A little sidespin on rail cuts could negate throw and cut the ball in clean.....SPF=randyg
 
I think the really good players who claim they are using systems might use a system to get in the ballpark which is fine but ultimately they are using their eye arm brain computer (memory) and "shot pictures"

This is what the "shot picture" needs to look like when I need low inside English for shape on this 27 degree cut. Looks good now pull the trigger.

Again, I'm talking about the REALLY good players.
 
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