How many cues do you make a year?

ratcues said:
I understand your point but you still need to be able to build enough AND sell enough. Just because a person can build 250 cues a year doesn't mean someone will be knocking his door down to buy them.
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I'm not arguing your point.I just dissagreed with KJ when he said there was no money in building cues.The profit margin is very high for most of the cuemakers.For the beginers its not as good. Like myself, i spend $100 on material,and i can get maybe $250 - $300 for my cue, as I'm new and don't have a name for myself. On the other hand, a cuemaker with a name can spend $100 and get much more for his cues. I have seen for myself looking through the cuemakers web pages looking at the cues and prices.
While i was at Valley forge i looked at some of the custom cuemakers cues
and what they were getting for them. I'm not trying to bash anyone, my only point is there is a pretty good profit margin in cue building, If there wasn't, i dont think Unique, hightower,bludwurth, brianna,l porper or anyother equipment maker could stay in business. For me, I'm very happy to get 150% on my money.
 
zx24 said:
i'm not arguing your point.i just dissagreed with kj when he said there was no money in building cues.the profit margin is very high for most of the cuemakers.for the beginers its not as good. Like myself, i spend $100 on material,and i can get maybe $250 - $300 for my cue, as i'm new and don't have a name for myself. On the other hand, a cuemaker with a name can spend $100 and get much more for his cues. I have seen for myself looking through the cuemakers web pages looking at the cues and prices.
While i was at valley forge i looked at some of the custom cuemakers cues
and what they were getting for them. I'm not trying to bash anyone, my only point is there is a pretty good profit margin in cue building, if there wasn't, i dont think unique, hightower,bludwurth, brianna,l porper or anyother equipment maker could stay in business. For me, i'm very happy to get 150% on my money.
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not true.
.
 
JoeyInCali said:
not true.
.
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I found this as an example on a AZ members website.
Very nice lookin cue. $100 - $125 in materials.
Not a bad return on your money.
cue.jpg

This is a Cocobolo and Birdseye Maple cue with six Birdseye half-splice points, Birdseye handle and Birdseye butt coller. With a butterscotch phenolic joint , butt cap and radial pin. The shafts are 13mm and come with Talisman tips. This cue weighs 19oz.

Price with 1 shaft $675.00
 
zx24 said:
I found this as an example on a AZ members website.
Very nice lookin cue. $100 - $125 in materials.
Not a bad return on your money.
cue.jpg

This is a Cocobolo and Birdseye Maple cue with six Birdseye half-splice points, Birdseye handle and Birdseye butt coller. With a butterscotch phenolic joint , butt cap and radial pin. The shafts are 13mm and come with Talisman tips. This cue weighs 19oz.

Price with 1 shaft $675.00
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For every one of those, there are 10 for a lot less with a lot more on it.
 
zx24 said:
For me, I'm very happy to get 150% on my money.
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The cost of materials is certainly not the only expense that a cue maker has. There is just a little thing called machinery and tooling, and it amounts to more than the price of a Hightower and a couple of drill bits... Subtract those tens of thousands from your 150% margin and see what's left.

On the topic of time, there is also significant set-up time involved with the machinery even before the first cue is cut. So when you say "it's only a few hands on hours," don't forget about the 2 weeks it took you to tweak your taper bar just the way you wanted, or all of the time it took to make that fixture to hold the forearm in your mill at the proper angle.

On the topic of materials, there is also some unusable materials that need to be paid for. For example, expensive exotic burls that check when drying, or ebony and ivory that cracks and cannot be used.

One thing is for sure, there are only a very few getting rich making cues. I would venture to say that most of us put the money right back into our machinery budget for that new lathe, mill, or CNC. It is a fact that most cue makers are not full time, and there is a reason for that. Very few can even make a living from only making cues, let alone getting rich from doing it.
Mr H
 
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zx24 said:
I'm not arguing your point.I just dissagreed with KJ when he said there was no money in building cues.The profit margin is very high for most of the cuemakers.For the beginers its not as good. Like myself, i spend $100 on material,and i can get maybe $250 - $300 for my cue, as I'm new and don't have a name for myself. On the other hand, a cuemaker with a name can spend $100 and get much more for his cues. I have seen for myself looking through the cuemakers web pages looking at the cues and prices.
While i was at Valley forge i looked at some of the custom cuemakers cues
and what they were getting for them. I'm not trying to bash anyone, my only point is there is a pretty good profit margin in cue building, If there wasn't, i dont think Unique, hightower,bludwurth, brianna,l porper or anyother equipment maker could stay in business. For me, I'm very happy to get 150% on my money.
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All you're looking at is the money spent on mtrls vs the money the cue brings when sold. Others have told you that there is much more to it than that but you choose to ignore what they are telling you. If you're not going to listen to them, you're certainly not going to listen to me. I'm not going to waste any time on trying to convince you otherwise. I'm content to let you find-out on your own.

Your avatar says you are a cuemaker apprentice. Are you working out of someone else's shop while they pay the bills? Do you own & maintain your own machinery?
I'm just trying to get a sense of how long you've been building, that would cause you to make this statement : "my only point is there is a pretty good profit margin in cue building". Talk to me in 10 yrs and tell me if you still feel this is true.

There's a lot more expense to building a cue than just the cost of mtrls.
It would be wonderful if all you had to do was buy $100 worth of mtrls and magically in a few hours you could roll it over for a few hundred. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Cheap cues are just that; cheap cues.
I don't build cheap cues. I don't build $250-300 cues either. The Chinese pretty much have that market covered. If you'd like to compete with them, then have at it.

You can disagree with me `til the cows cross the Rio Grande but it's not going to change the economics of cue building.
 
zx24 said:
I found this as an example on a AZ members website.
Very nice lookin cue. $100 - $125 in materials.
Not a bad return on your money.
cue.jpg

This is a Cocobolo and Birdseye Maple cue with six Birdseye half-splice points, Birdseye handle and Birdseye butt coller. With a butterscotch phenolic joint , butt cap and radial pin. The shafts are 13mm and come with Talisman tips. This cue weighs 19oz.

Price with 1 shaft $675.00
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Your absolutely correct. The mark-up is atrocious. Of coarse there's only about 600.00 of metal in a 20,000 H/D and a 300,000 house has probably less than 15,000 in lumber but who's counting. Say you've got 25 hrs. involved building that cue. That means you can build around 6 a month for a normal 40 hr. week. That's around 4,000.00 a month. A 1000 a week. That puts you over the poverty level, but, now subtract the monthly expenses. Materials about 650.00, rent 1000.00 gas/electric 450.00, phone 65.00, fire insurance 100.00, machinery up-keep and replacement 150.00 and then about 35% taxes on the balance. So now are 4,000 is down to less than a 1,000.00. That's about 250 a week and no health insurance, no retirement and of coarse, no vacations. Certainly not a bad return on your money.

I make my money doing cue repair. I've been doing it for 40 years and have a very nice following. The only reason that I build cues is to fill in the wasted time sitting around the shop waiting for more repair work to arrive. If I had enough repair work to fill my hours I would no more build a cue as to shoot myself in the foot. Well, let me decide, do cue repair for 50 to 200.00 an hour or build cues for around 3.00 an hour. Decisions decisions.

By the way, I had a lot more than 125.00 in that cue as that is the one I was working on when I cut off my index finger on the table saw.

Dick
 
Originally Posted by zx24 View Post
I found this as an example on a AZ members website.
Very nice lookin cue. $100 - $125 in materials.
Not a bad return on your money.
Click to expand...

If you are spending $100 and selling for $300 in the cue world, whether you want to admit it or not, it is costing you money to build that cue and sell it.
The only way it isn't would be if you're doing it for a little cash under the table and building it on someone else equipment and dime.

Try running it as a legitimate business...paying for your...TAXES...your own health insurance...taking a salary out every week to pay for your food, rent, auto expenses, cost of shipping the finished product and all the other incidentals that go along with actually putting that cue in someone's hands other than your own.

Then sit down and push the pencil on the paper and tell us how much "profit" you have left over to buy enough wood and materials for your next cue so you can do it all over again.

I believe you may be more confused than I originally thought when I started reading this thread.
 
The only reason that I build cues is to fill in the wasted time sitting around the shop waiting for more repair work to arrive.
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I thought that's what your TV, refrig and computer were for?
 
i am still trying to figure out how you can make a cue in only 3 hours "hands on"?to make a cue and it takes me 20+ hours to get them to the point where i am comfortable sending them out the door.i must be doing something very wrong.

i spend 5-6 hours on a cue after the final cut,and 2-3 of that is spent on the shafts alone.

by the way,i am only making plain cues with no points or inlays.
 
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BarenbruggeCues said:
If you are spending $100 and selling for $300 in the cue world, whether you want to admit it or not, it is costing you money to build that cue and sell it.
The only way it isn't would be if you're doing it for a little cash under the table and building it on someone else equipment and dime.

Try running it as a legitimate business...paying for your...TAXES...your own health insurance...taking a salary out every week to pay for your food, rent, auto expenses, cost of shipping the finished product and all the other incidentals that go along with actually putting that cue in someone's hands other than your own.

Then sit down and push the pencil on the paper and tell us how much "profit" you have left over to buy enough wood and materials for your next cue so you can do it all over again.



I believe you may be more confused than I originally thought when I started reading this thread.
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I have my shop at home just like most of you, So I dont pay any rent,just electricity. I have a normal job like most of you so i have health care and life insurance. I buy and sell in cash as do most of you so i dont pay any taxes.I didnt spend as much on equipment and material as you big timers
have but i would say $15k (cash)is close. I dont do any repairs. I started out with a set sum of money at the beginning. I put a big dent in it purchasing all the equipment and material getting started. For some odd reason I have more money coming in than going out, and business is slow as you all know. So PLEASE Dont try to tell me there is no money in building cues.
 
zx24 said:
I have my shop at home just like most of you, So I dont pay any rent,just electricity. I have a normal job like most of you so i have health care and life insurance. I buy and sell in cash as do most of you so i dont pay any taxes.I didnt spend as much on equipment and material as you big timers
have but i would say $15k (cash)is close. I dont do any repairs. I started out with a set sum of money at the beginning. I put a big dent in it purchasing all the equipment and material getting started. For some odd reason I have more money coming in than going out, and business is slow as you all know. So PLEASE Dont try to tell me there is no money in building cues.
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Another case of 'fuzzy math'.
Your own numbers are killing your argument.

$15,000 total investment.
$100 in mtrls. to build a $250 cue. By your thinking, that's $150 profit. OK, we'll go with that for the sake of this discussion.
That means 100 cues built & sold just to break even. Forget your profit, you haven't made any yet. Also consider that while building those cues, you haven't paid yourself one red cent for your time invested. As a matter of fact, you're now in the hole for the amount of electricity you've used.

How many cues do you actually make per year? Maybe 10?
I don't care if you're honest with me or anyone else on this forum. The important thing is that you at least be honest with yourself.
At 10 cues built per year, it will take at least 10 years before you make a dime and you'll actually have worked for free for those 10 yrs.
That's assuming you're getting your electricity for free also.

In post #16 of this thread you ask : "Are we counting the firewood too?"
This implies that you've trashed a few. Where was your profit in those?
You actually lost money on those, didn't you? Even if your question was hypothetical, you WILL trash a few.

Then, in your post #23 you state that "you can spend $100 on materials to build a cue and sell it for $600 - $1000 for a few hours work."
Yet in post #41 you state : "and i can get maybe $250 - $300 for my cue."
I'm not trying to trap you, I'm just going on what you've said.

Another flaw in your argument is that you're trying to convince established CMs who actually know better. But that's OK, march-on son, I'm beginning to find this amusing.

Then there's your assumption that 'most' CMs work out of their home. WRONG.
Another false assumption : "I have a normal job like most of you", again WRONG.
Also, "so i dont pay any taxes." Well, I can see where that would help but most full-time CMs actually do pay taxes. Dick's statement of 35% is pretty accurate.

Your numbers beg the question : who's kidding who?
 
Add to your cost of "overhead" the fee and penalties the IRS will levy against you after publicly admitting tax evasion, and I bet your profit margins will be alot slimmer than you think. You'll likely never see a profit.

Frank
 
I don't think the number of Cues a Customer builder builds is significant, and some Cuemaker like Richard Chudy do some fancy stuff that if they were doingsimple stuff their production would go way up in numbers.
 
zx24 said:
I have my shop at home just like most of you, So I dont pay any rent,just electricity. I have a normal job like most of you so i have health care and life insurance. I buy and sell in cash as do most of you so i dont pay any taxes.I didnt spend as much on equipment and material as you big timers
have but i would say $15k (cash)is close. I dont do any repairs. I started out with a set sum of money at the beginning. I put a big dent in it purchasing all the equipment and material getting started. For some odd reason I have more money coming in than going out, and business is slow as you all know. So PLEASE Dont try to tell me there is no money in building cues.
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Just what I figured.....trying to skate under the radar and be a cash under the table type.
Quit your "Real" job and try to make it float. Report back in 2 years after you've filed for BK and tell us how much profit you've made.
 
zx24 said:
I have my shop at home just like most of you, So I dont pay any rent,just electricity. I have a normal job like most of you so i have health care and life insurance. I buy and sell in cash as do most of you so i dont pay any taxes.I didnt spend as much on equipment and material as you big timers
have but i would say $15k (cash)is close. I dont do any repairs. I started out with a set sum of money at the beginning. I put a big dent in it purchasing all the equipment and material getting started. For some odd reason I have more money coming in than going out, and business is slow as you all know. So PLEASE Dont try to tell me there is no money in building cues.
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It's true that a hobbyist can make some profit on their endeavorer especially if they consider their work as recreation time. If you figure up your hours involved in building a cue and the actual amount that you spend on materials considering wastage, money lost from banking interest, time spent ordering materials and handling them and processing them and the actual time making all of the parts, building and finishing the cue and then trying to sell it and all the time on the phone and of coarse the time correcting the little things the purchaser is not happy with you are going to have a lot more than a few hours involved.

You do know that fire insurance is very high for anyone who does wood working and if doing finishing, it is much higher. I hope that you and all others who do cue building in their homes realize that if there is a fire and it can be proved that you have sold one cue then your home owners insurance is no longer valid and they do not have to pay.

As most builders on this site will agree, they are building cues because they love doing it, not just for the profit. This is R&R from their regular job and they can get a little of their investment back where as many other peoples hobbies for relaxation just cost money. You should have no trouble noticing that those on this forum who have tried to turn their hobby into a real job are struggling to say the least. There is never enough profit to be successful and make a living. They also thought they had seen how profitable selling a cue could be and just such few hours involved and decided to try making a living out of it. Once committed and they had to start producing more they discovered that there is many more hours involved than they had estimated and they can't produce enough cues to cover expenses let enough easily selling them. If you get a broker or dealer to sell them for you you now have a steady income from what you are producing but most, if not all of the profit is now gone.

Dick
 
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