CTE experiment, with civil discussion

dr_dave

dr_dave

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We have had many threads over the years dealing with the Center-to-Edge (CTE) aiming system. IMO, these threads have resulted in very little understanding and agreement concerning what CTE really is.

Here's an experiment I hope will help focus the discussion so we can try to arrive at a reasonable, clear, and complete description of CTE.

FYI, descriptions, demonstrations, and illustrations related to the CTE method can be found here.

The experiment involves the following three shots (A, B, and C):

CTE_shots.jpg

Shot "A" is about a 10-degree cut, shot "B" is about a 15-degree cut, and shot "C" is about a 20-degree cut. All three shots fit into the "thick hit" category of CTE (see my CTE page and Spidey's blog for more info). Also, the CB-to-OB distance is the same for all three shots, so the "shot arc" is the exact same for all three shots (see my CTE page and Spidey's blog for more info).

Here is the CTE aiming procedure for a "thick hit" shot, as I understand it:

1.) ALIGN: (for thick cuts): Start with your cue parallel to the CB-center-to-outside-OB-edge line (CTEL) with the tip pointing at the outside edge of the CB (per the 2nd CTE version on my CTE page).

2.) PIVOT: Then pivot your tip toward the pocket until it reaches the CB's center. The "effective pivot length" or "pivot arc radius" you use during the pivot should be the distance from the bridge to the OB (see Spidey's blog for more info).​

Since all three shots are "thick hits," and since the CB-to-OB distance is the same for each, the "effective pivot length" or "pivot arc" is also the same for each (assuming the bridge length is the same for all three shots).

Here's the question I want people to answer with the experiment: What do you do differently with the alignment and/or pivot steps of CTE to pocket each of these three shots?

Thank you in advance for participating and helping to provide more insight and understanding.

Regards,
Dave
 
What happened to the step between 1 and 2, to shift the cue parallel 1/2 ball? I could have swore you were at least shifting parallel a while back. Also, what exactly are you calling the outside edge of the OB?
 
Elephant Man said:
What happened to the step between 1 and 2, to shift the cue parallel 1/2 ball?
Click to expand...
That's part of step 1, which some people seem to do in a single step.

Elephant Man said:
I could have swore you were at least shifting parallel a while back.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you are talking about here. That must have been somebody else, unless I misunderstand you.

Elephant Man said:
Also, what exactly are you calling the outside edge of the OB?
Click to expand...
The outside edge is the edge away from the pocket.

Regards,
Dave
 
Secretary of State: “Hey, that’s good. You sure you ain’t the smartest guy in the world?”
Joe: “Okay, look. You wanna solve this problem. I wanna get my pardon. So why don’t we just try it, okay, and not worry about what plants crave?”
Attorney General: “Brawndo’s got what plants crave.”
Secretary of Energy: “Yeah, it’s got electrolytes.”
Joe: “What are electrolytes? Do you even know?”
Secretary of State: “It’s what they use to make Brawndo.”
Joe: “Yeah, but why do they use them to make Brawndo?”
Secretary of Defense: “‘Cause Brawndo’s got electrolytes.”
 
Wish this got posted yesterday so I could have tried it today while I was practicing. Now I won't be able to try this till Friday. I did use the thick hit pivot on a few shots today and they all went in.

Last week I did the same thing with the same result. The only difference between last week and this week is when I tried it last week I only pivoted the cue (kept my body lined up with one tip right/left, but cue lined up to CB center). This week I shifted my whole body to CB center.

I will actually have some real time to toy around with it on Friday (so long as my slum lord employers don't plan on me working 60 hours again).
 
dr_dave said:
We have had many threads over the years dealing with the Center-to-Edge (CTE) aiming system. IMO, these threads have resulted in very little understanding and agreement concerning what CTE really is.

Here's an experiment I hope will help focus the discussion so we can try to arrive at a reasonable, clear, and complete description of CTE.

FYI, descriptions, demonstrations, and illustrations related to the CTE method can be found here.

The experiment involves the following three shots (A, B, and C):

CTE_shots.jpg

Shot "A" is about a 10-degree cut, shot "B" is about a 15-degree cut, and shot "C" is about a 20-degree cut. All three shots fit into the "thick hit" category of CTE (see my CTE page and Spidey's blog for more info). Also, the CB-to-OB distance is the same for all three shots, so the "shot arc" is the exact same for all three shots (see my CTE page and Spidey's blog for more info).

Here is the CTE aiming procedure for a "thick hit" shot, as I understand it:

1.) ALIGN: (for thick cuts): Start with your cue parallel to the CB-center-to-outside-OB-edge line (CTEL) with the tip pointing at the outside edge of the CB (per the 2nd CTE version on my CTE page).

2.) PIVOT: Then pivot your tip toward the pocket until it reaches the CB's center. The "effective pivot length" or "pivot arc radius" you use during the pivot should be the distance from the bridge to the OB (see Spidey's blog for more info).​

Since all three shots are "thick hits," and since the CB-to-OB distance is the same for each, the "effective pivot length" or "pivot arc" is also the same for each (assuming the bridge length is the same for all three shots).

Here's the question I want people to answer with the experiment: What do you do differently with the alignment and/or pivot steps of CTE to pocket each of these three shots?

Thank you in advance for participating and helping to provide more insight and understanding.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...



dr_dave again you have made a GREAT POST IMHO

Thank U.:smile:
 
I have read a few CTE threads but not really posted much. I do have a slight background as I have had some interaction with some of the CTE names. I had a lesson fron Stan Shuffet and have had a phone conversation Hal Houle. I have played around with CTE for ~ 2 years. I use it more in practice and do not focus on the pivot when I play.

Here is what I think happens first setup any of those three shots. Step 1 is to look at the shot prior to setting up (building a stance). Look the center of the CB to the edge of the OB away from the pocket. This sets in your mind where the CB is relative to the OB.
Now when you setup to shoot and you build your stance and spacing on the CB line and you bring in your bridge hand you will set it online at the correct distance for your shot template away from the CB.
Then on a thick shot when you pivot in from the outside to the center of the CB when the tip gets to the center you are lined up.
CTE inspects the layout of the shot (CB center to OB edge).
Brings in the bridge online of the CB shot line to a distance from the CB.
When you pivot in and the tip is in the center of CB you should be lined up.
Even with this process you still have to check your aim and make a good stroke.

So it is like a rifle or old time engineering when you do not have alot of calibrated guages. You use longer distances early in a process to aid in enhancing accuracy. In this case the key is the CB line and the bridge distance from the CB.
 
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"...Even with this process you still have to check your aim ..."

I thought that the only thing to aim at after the shift and pivot was the center of the CB.

What do you actually aim at?
 
I have always used Hals methods for aiming from shishkabob, small ball, to the 3 points and 2 edges. But over the years I sort of made my own system from all the aiming systems I have tried and read. This past week of all the cte I fell back in to it and been doing nothing but using cte. One angle for all shots how simple is that.? I aim at the edge of the objectball and the center of the cueball that's it, but what I'm doing
that most pivoters might not do. I actually shift the cue and pivot then pivot back to center cueball but not on everyshot. Some just require a shift then pivot to center. I also find the center to edge easier by looking past the objectball.
 
Last edited:
elvicash said:
I have read a few CTE threads but not really posted much. I do have a slight background as I have had some interaction with some of the CTE names. I had a lesson fron Stan Shuffet and have had a phone conversation Hal Houle. I have played around with CTE for ~ 2 years. I use it more in practice and do not focus on the pivot when I play.

Here is what I think happens first setup any of those three shots. Step 1 is to look at the shot prior to setting up (building a stance). Look the center of the CB to the edge of the OB away from the pocket. This sets in your mind where the CB is relative to the OB.
Now when you setup to shoot and you build your stance and spacing on the CB line and you bring in your bridge hand you will set it online at the correct distance for your shot template away from the CB.
Then on a thick shot when you pivot in from the outside to the center of the CB when the tip gets to the center you are lined up.py to work with the above.
CTE inspects the layout of the shot (CB center to OB edge).
Brings in the bridge online of the CB shot line to a distance from the CB.
When you pivot in and the tip is in the center of CB you should be lined up.
Even with this process you still have to check your aim and make a good stroke.

So it is like a rifle or old time engineering when you do not have alot of calibrated guages. You use longer distances early in a process to aid in enhancing accuracy. In this case the key is the CB line and the bridge distance from the CB.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the above. It at leasts gives something to experiment with. I'm not sure that I fully understand the "offset" but I am happy to work with the above.
 
LAMas said:
"...Even with this process you still have to check your aim ..."

I thought that the only thing to aim at after the shift and pivot was the center of the CB.

What do you actually aim at?
Click to expand...

In the SPF proccess you stop the stick and check and your aim before the final stroke. As I play what this means to me is with cue stopped I look at the current alignment to the OB and see where it is going. The OB can enter the pocket at an infinite number of locations but usually with a clear path the center or the side of the pocket opening is preffered.

So the checking I refer to in CTE is similiar, the CTE is a very strong repeatable rough aim for alignment and it is normally ON for me meaning no or minimal refinement is needed.

I do not think I am or claim to be a CTE expert but I believe for me that my pocketing percentage is much higher because my alignment and stance are more consistent shot to shot and the aiming proccess is roughed in early per shot using the technique.

For me CTE helps me see how the balls lay on the table relative to each other and to the table. It helps me build my stance and set my bridge location on line and when I pivot the tip to the center I am pretty well lined up. I do then check my aim and can refine my aim location or adjust for english. My stick is parallel to the CB path when i use/apply english. I do not claim to be a very strong player or anything but I play better now than I did before CTE.

When I am playing well I am focused on the OB not the CB or pcoket when I make my stroke. This point is not the edge of the OB or center of the CB. I aim at the contact point on the OB which is the point on the OB the farthest away from the pocket. I only pivot when I come in to the CB building my stance/during setup. Any fine adjustments are applied without pivots.

I would like to get the entire Pro 1 lesson/system from Stan as i got my CTE intro early in Stans teaching it and it was at the end of my two day lesson so I do not claim to have all of what he currently teaches in my arsenal.

CTE helped me.
 
elvicash said:
I have read a few CTE threads but not really posted much. I do have a slight background as I have had some interaction with some of the CTE names. I had a lesson fron Stan Shuffet and have had a phone conversation Hal Houle. I have played around with CTE for ~ 2 years. I use it more in practice and do not focus on the pivot when I play.

Here is what I think happens first setup any of those three shots. Step 1 is to look at the shot prior to setting up (building a stance). Look the center of the CB to the edge of the OB away from the pocket. This sets in your mind where the CB is relative to the OB.
Now when you setup to shoot and you build your stance and spacing on the CB line and you bring in your bridge hand you will set it online at the correct distance for your shot template away from the CB.
Then on a thick shot when you pivot in from the outside to the center of the CB when the tip gets to the center you are lined up.
CTE inspects the layout of the shot (CB center to OB edge).
Brings in the bridge online of the CB shot line to a distance from the CB.
When you pivot in and the tip is in the center of CB you should be lined up.
Even with this process you still have to check your aim and make a good stroke.

So it is like a rifle or old time engineering when you do not have alot of calibrated guages. You use longer distances early in a process to aid in enhancing accuracy. In this case the key is the CB line and the bridge distance from the CB.
Click to expand...
Thank you for your excellent description. So it sounds like what you do differently on the three shots is pivot differently (even if you don't consciously think about it), based on "inspect the shot" and "check your aim." My experience with CTE is similar.

Thanks,
Dave
 
TheConArtist said:
I have always used Hals methods for aiming from shishkabob, small ball, to the 3 points and 2 edges. But over the years I sort of made my own system from all the aiming systems I have tried and read. This past week of all the cte I fell back in to it and been doing nothing but using cte. One angle for all shots how simple is that.?
Click to expand...
That's pretty simple, but it's obviously not the whole story.

TheConArtist said:
I aim at the edge of the objectball and the center of the cueball that's it, but what I'm doing
that most pivoters might not do. I actually shift the cue and pivot then pivot back to center cueball but not on everyshot. Some just require a shift then pivot to center. I also find the center to edge easier by looking past the objectball.
Click to expand...
So do you shift or pivot differently with the three shots in the diagram?

Thanks,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
Thank you for your excellent description. So it sounds like what you do differently on the three shots is pivot differently (even if you don't consciously think about it), based on "inspect the shot" and "check your aim." My experience with CTE is similar.

Thanks,
Dave
Click to expand...

I pivot differently because after inspecting each shot I see the balls are similiar meaning distance apart but they sit on the table farther and farthe from the side rail. So after inspecting my CB path to the OB is as shown in your drawings (good drawings BTW) so I place my toe and bridge hand relative to the CB line, trying to have consistent distance from the OB. This inspection CTE give me a feel for how the balls sit on the table and I get out of that inspection the CB line and the contact point. No I have hit more than a few balls over the years but do not claim 10K hours of table time either. If you look at my setup my stick path after setup is probably online with the CB path in your drawings. I always pivot to the center, I place my toe and bridge differently per shot. I like looking at the balls with the CTE concept it give me a consistent starting foundation for each shot.
 
What if you knew without a doubt, that the bridge length, shift and pivot point were the same for all 3 shots? Then where would you look?
 
elvicash said:
I pivot differently because after inspecting each shot I see the balls are similiar meaning distance apart but they sit on the table farther and farthe from the side rail. So after inspecting my CB path to the OB is as shown in your drawings (good drawings BTW) so I place my toe and bridge hand relative to the CB line, trying to have consistent distance from the OB. This inspection CTE give me a feel for how the balls sit on the table and I get out of that inspection the CB line and the contact point. No I have hit more than a few balls over the years but do not claim 10K hours of table time either. If you look at my setup my stick path after setup is probably online with the CB path in your drawings. I always pivot to the center, I place my toe and bridge differently per shot. I like looking at the balls with the CTE concept it give me a consistent starting foundation for each shot.
Click to expand...
Thank you. This is the kind of report I am hoping different people will share.

Regards,
Dave
 
Elephant Man said:
What if you knew without a doubt, that the bridge length, shift and pivot point were the same for all 3 shots? Then where would you look?
Click to expand...
... probably the initial alignment or the amount of pivot.

But the point of the thread isn't for me to say what I do differently on the three shots. I want to know what you and others do differently on the three shots. There are many possible explanations and approaches. What do you do?

Regards,
Dave
 
I played with the CTE SYSTEM both Saturday, and Yesterday I would give the a thumbs up,:thumbup2: as I saw first hand CTE works.

I was lucky enough to know an “A” Player who I ran into whom I asked a question or two about CTE, after his simple explanation I gave CTE a try the next day.

I found the “system” does work, but several times I went to make shot with CTE and said to my self these shot “will not go” :scratchhead: but they did go, :bow-down: so lets say I will spend more time on CTE, and call upon it when I have a shot where CTE can be used. What I am using is not the solution to the shot before me.

I see CTE as another “tool” on my tool belt to be used when needed.
 
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