CTE experiment, with civil discussion

All 3 thick hit shots are shot the same exact way, same exact alignment, same pivot, same bridge, same......... everything.

If everything is done the same, how can you get different results?

I would really like to understand this system, but some things just don't add up or make any sense.

I feel like I'm out in the country at midnight with a burlap bag, waiting to capture an elusive Snipe.

Thanks Dr Dave for starting this thread. Hopefully one of the few people that swear by this system can explain it in a way that can be duplicated by us mortals.

Spidey said that he spent one or two thousand hours learning it, but that it can be taught on a table in 2 to 5 minutes. OK, I'm ready to be shown. YouTube is a good venue to show it on a table. If he won't or can't do it, then maybe someone else will step up to the plate and do it.
 
Thank you "VEPS customer (who preferred to remain anonymous)" and dr_dave.:smile:

CCTP is easy to understand and perform. It appears that the parallel offset of the cue from the CCTP line (CCTPL) is not one tip diameter but 1/2 of the CB or the edge of the CB.:smile:

This 1/2 CB offset may change depending on the distance from the/your bridge to the CB.

This should take less than 1 thousand hours of practice to master.

Well I put it to the dimensionally accurate top view in AutoCad and the 1/2 CB offset won't work - sucks.
The bridge distance has to change for different angles.
CTCP.jpg


I will look at contact point to center OB offset next.
 
Partial Aspects of PRO ONE

Shots A,B,C, as presented, require a right to left cue movement. That right to left pivot will seem unnatural for most right-handed players. In PRO ONE the movement is always from left to right for right-handed players. In PRO ONE, shots A,B,C can be pocketed with a left to right, half-ball pivot. Constant left to right pivoting for right-handed players is the major variation of PRO ONE from Hal’s method of CTE. For lefties, the pivot would always be from right to left.

Within a straight line range of shots from Shot A to Shot C, there are at least 500 more shots that could have the same CB-OB relationship. All 500 shots can share a half-ball pivot for successful pocketing.

If I were to shoot any one of the 500 shots within the range of A to C, I would not worry about precision math calculations or exact wording to guide my every move. I’d want my subconscious mind and body to take over.

For any of the 500 shots I would first see CTE and align to CTE. Then, I would visually shift my sight to the right cue ball edge and allow my body/eyes to move slightly ‘right’ across the CTEL. My cue is following with its initial left to right movement. My eyes would have already located center cue ball at this stage of the process. My bridge hand would be sliding up the left cue ball edge line and arcing in toward center cue ball. During this ‘bridge hand slide’ my angled cue would arc by the left edge of the cue ball. My ‘bridge hand slide’ and arcing cue would land at center cue ball simultaneously. {My final bridge distance at actual aim would be about 7.5 inches. My bridge distance would not have been constant during its movement to center cue ball.}

What could the range of my total eye/body movement or offset across the CTEL be for the 500 shots in a line from A to C? Let’s call it a range of 3/8 of an inch. Divide 3/8 by 500 to determine my incremental eye location or visual aim difference for each of the 500 shots. I get .075 of an inch. One’s visual and bodily intelligence can easily manage all 500 shots with uncanny precision. It all comes back to the fact that there are countless shots on a pool table. A great way to handle the vast array of shots is to use CTE.

Within one’s brain, there are 2 separate physical locations that separately deal with objects and spatial relationships simultaneously. OBJECTS: table surface, cue, balls, rails and pockets---SPATIAL RELATIONSHIPS: body/cue/table distances, varying bridge distance, CB/OB distance and OB/pocket distance. This can get very complicated! { Knowledgable PHDs can be extremely challenged when assigned to write about the inner workings of what happens when a person touches his finger to his nose.} I’d personally like to see a doctoral dissertation that describes the inner workings of what a pool player does mentally, visually and bodily to successfully execute a shot such as shot C.

Hal Houle learned that through CTE a player can quickly tap into the purity of aiming. A key factor in CTE is that the shooter learns to largely disengage his conscious mind from the aiming process. Your mind’s eye can easily perceive each of the 500 shots referenced above as ‘one’.

Subconscious aiming by way of CTE is available to any player within days or weeks and certainly no longer than months after having learned the process. CTE can be learned in as little as 5 hours. Does this mean you’ll be pocketing balls like a pro in short order? No, but your process of arriving at an actual aim will be very pro-like in short order.

IMO, CTE is nothing less than a precious gift, a gift from its inventor, Hal Houle.

Stan Shuffett
 
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Well I put it to the dimensionally accurate top view in AutoCad and the 1/2 CB offset won't work - sucks.
The bridge distance has to change for different angles.
View attachment 135224
With an "air pivot" or a "tilting mechanical pivot," almost any "effective pivot length" can be achieved. For more info, see my CTE resource page.

I will look at contact point to center OB offset next.
Good. I look forward to seeing that. You might need to play around with the pivot length a little to find the best position.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Shots A,B,C, as presented, require a right to left cue movement. That right to left pivot will seem unnatural for most right-handed players. In PRO ONE the movement is always from left to right for right-handed players. In PRO ONE, shots A,B,C can be pocketed with a left to right, half-ball pivot. Constant left to right pivoting for right-handed players is the major variation of PRO ONE from Hal’s method of CTE. For lefties, the pivot would always be from right to left.

Within a straight line range of shots from Shot A to Shot C, there are at least 500 more shots that could have the same CB-OB relationship. All 500 shots can share a half-ball pivot for successful pocketing.

If I were to shoot any one of the 500 shots within the range of A to C, I would not worry about precision math calculations or exact wording to guide my every move. I’d want my subconscious mind and body to take over.

For any of the 500 shots I would first see CTE and align to CTE. Then, I would visually shift my sight to the right cue ball edge and allow my body/eyes to move slightly ‘right’ across the CTEL. My cue is following with its initial left to right movement. My eyes would have already located center cue ball at this stage of the process. My bridge hand would be sliding up the left cue ball edge line and arcing in toward center cue ball. During this ‘bridge hand slide’ my angled cue would arc by the left edge of the cue ball. My ‘bridge hand slide’ and arcing cue would land at center cue ball simultaneously. {My final bridge distance at actual aim would be about 7.5 inches. My bridge distance would not have been constant during its movement to center cue ball.}

What could the range of my total eye/body movement or offset across the CTEL be for the 500 shots in a line from A to C? Let’s call it a range of 3/8 of an inch. Divide 3/8 by 500 to determine my incremental eye location or visual aim difference for each of the 500 shots. I get .075 of an inch. One’s visual and bodily intelligence can easily manage all 500 shots with uncanny precision. It all comes back to the fact that there are countless shots on a pool table. A great way to handle the vast array of shots is to use CTE.

Within one’s brain, there are 2 separate physical locations that separately deal with objects and spacial relationships simultaneously. OBJECTS: table surface, cue, balls, rails and pockets---SPACIAL RELATIONSHIPS: body/cue/table distances, varying bridge distance, CB/OB distance and OB/pocket distance. This can get very complicated! { Knowledgable PHDs can be extremely challenged when assigned to write about the inner workings of what happens when a person touches his finger to his nose.} I’d personally like to see a doctoral dissertation that describes the inner workings of what a pool player does mentally, visually and bodily to successfully execute a shot such as shot C.

Hal Houle learned that through CTE a player can quickly tap into the purity of aiming. A key factor in CTE is that the shooter learns to largely disengage his conscious mind from the aiming process. Your mind’s eye can easily perceive each of the 500 shots referenced above as ‘one’.

Subconscious aiming by way of CTE is available to any player within days or weeks and certainly no longer than months after having learned the process. CTE can be learned in as little as 5 hours. Does this mean you’ll be pocketing balls like a pro in short order? No, but your process of arriving at an actual aim will be very pro-like in short order.

IMO, CTE is nothing less than a precious gift, a gift from its inventor, Hal Houle.

Stan Shuffett

Stan,

Thanks for taking the time to post and also to pay a small homage to Hal Houle.

I used to rag a couple of instructors for not acknowledging Hal Houle's contribution to their aiming system, it's nice to see him get the proper credit.

FWIW, I believe Hal got the basis for his aiming systems from hanging around Ralph Greenleaf, when he was younger. Forgive me if I got the story jumbo'd, it's been a while since I've spoken to Hal.


Eric
 
Stan,

Thank you so much for contributing your thoughts. I really appreciate it, and I'm sure many others will also.

So it sounds like you let your "subconscious and mind take over" during the "bridge-hand slide" and the "arcing" pivot. This apparently results in the different "effective pivot lengths" and final cue angles necessary to pocket the three different shots. That makes sense to me, even with my PhD. I'm not looking for equations or numbers, just simple explanations. Thank you for providing one.

Obviously, some visual "feel" and "judgment" is required in the CTE aiming process, and the pocket location must be taken into consideration (even if only subconsciously), and skill with the process does take time and effort to develop. That's what I've been trying to say for years. It sounds like you agree.

Regards,
Dave

Shots A,B,C, as presented, require a right to left cue movement. That right to left pivot will seem unnatural for most right-handed players. In PRO ONE the movement is always from left to right for right-handed players. In PRO ONE, shots A,B,C can be pocketed with a left to right, half-ball pivot. Constant left to right pivoting for right-handed players is the major variation of PRO ONE from Hal’s method of CTE. For lefties, the pivot would always be from right to left.

Within a straight line range of shots from Shot A to Shot C, there are at least 500 more shots that could have the same CB-OB relationship. All 500 shots can share a half-ball pivot for successful pocketing.

If I were to shoot any one of the 500 shots within the range of A to C, I would not worry about precision math calculations or exact wording to guide my every move. I’d want my subconscious mind and body to take over.

For any of the 500 shots I would first see CTE and align to CTE. Then, I would visually shift my sight to the right cue ball edge and allow my body/eyes to move slightly ‘right’ across the CTEL. My cue is following with its initial left to right movement. My eyes would have already located center cue ball at this stage of the process. My bridge hand would be sliding up the left cue ball edge line and arcing in toward center cue ball. During this ‘bridge hand slide’ my angled cue would arc by the left edge of the cue ball. My ‘bridge hand slide’ and arcing cue would land at center cue ball simultaneously. {My final bridge distance at actual aim would be about 7.5 inches. My bridge distance would not have been constant during its movement to center cue ball.}

What could the range of my total eye/body movement or offset across the CTEL be for the 500 shots in a line from A to C? Let’s call it a range of 3/8 of an inch. Divide 3/8 by 500 to determine my incremental eye location or visual aim difference for each of the 500 shots. I get .075 of an inch. One’s visual and bodily intelligence can easily manage all 500 shots with uncanny precision. It all comes back to the fact that there are countless shots on a pool table. A great way to handle the vast array of shots is to use CTE.

Within one’s brain, there are 2 separate physical locations that separately deal with objects and spacial relationships simultaneously. OBJECTS: table surface, cue, balls, rails and pockets---SPACIAL RELATIONSHIPS: body/cue/table distances, varying bridge distance, CB/OB distance and OB/pocket distance. This can get very complicated! { Knowledgable PHDs can be extremely challenged when assigned to write about the inner workings of what happens when a person touches his finger to his nose.} I’d personally like to see a doctoral dissertation that describes the inner workings of what a pool player does mentally, visually and bodily to successfully execute a shot such as shot C.

Hal Houle learned that through CTE a player can quickly tap into the purity of aiming. A key factor in CTE is that the shooter learns to largely disengage his conscious mind from the aiming process. Your mind’s eye can easily perceive each of the 500 shots referenced above as ‘one’.

Subconscious aiming by way of CTE is available to any player within days or weeks and certainly no longer than months after having learned the process. CTE can be learned in as little as 5 hours. Does this mean you’ll be pocketing balls like a pro in short order? No, but your process of arriving at an actual aim will be very pro-like in short order.

IMO, CTE is nothing less than a precious gift, a gift from its inventor, Hal Houle.

Stan Shuffett
 
Very nicely done Dave. Case closed. It always comes back to feel. I'm going to stop reading cte threads now.
 
************
...I’d want my subconscious mind and body to take over...
********************

Thanks for acknowledging the importance of the subconscious in your approach to the shot.

I'm as much a numbers guy as anyone, but would not sell short the powerful role that the subconscious mind plays in solving these complex visuo-spatial-motor tasks. Plus, it is nice to see it acknowledged that at least some incarnations of the method would not be expected to be describable by geometry, or enacted by following a rote series of physical actions without cerebral modulation.
 
I played with the CTE SYSTEM a little more today, as I said before I will spend more time on CTE, and use it as another tool in tool belt in select situations.
 
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Stan,

Thank you so much for contributing your thoughts. I really appreciate it, and I'm sure many others will also.

So it sounds like you let your "subconscious and mind take over" during the "bridge-hand slide" and the "arcing" pivot. This apparently results in the different "effective pivot lengths" and final cue angles necessary to pocket the three different shots. That makes sense to me, even with my PhD. I'm not looking for equations or numbers, just simple explanations. Thank you for providing one.

Obviously, some visual "feel" and "judgment" is required in the CTE aiming process, and the pocket location must be taken into consideration (even if only subconsciously), and skill with the process does take time and effort to develop. That's what I've been trying to say for years. It sounds like you agree.

Regards,
Dave

The world is flat.


Eric >would nvr challenge the exalted philosophers
 
ShishKaBob.jpg


ShishKaBobEdge2Edge.jpg


Here are some more Pic/Diagrams from a long time ago that was posted from Colin about Small Ball and Pivoting. Just wanted to add them.

As for how i shift and pivot, what i noticed last night of really paying attention to what i'm doing. Is i trust myself of addressing center cueball without even looking at the cueball, or somewhere near center. My focus is on the edge of the objectball, then i shift the cue but i don't shift all the way to the edge of the cueball, its the quarter of the cueball between the edge and center. Then pivot center cueball. So you can say that after awhile of using cte i go by feel of the shift but the pivot is not feel as i aim center cueball.

I'll report back after tonight of shooting the three shots thou.
 
With an "air pivot" or a "tilting mechanical pivot," almost any "effective pivot length" can be achieved. For more info, see my CTE resource page.

Good. I look forward to seeing that. You might need to play around with the pivot length a little to find the best position.

Thanks,
Dave

Dave,
OB contact point to center of OB is better but not the nuts. Perhaps with the "air pivot" or imagination it is close enough.
CTCPTC.jpg
 
Shots A,B,C, as presented, require a right to left cue movement. That right to left pivot will seem unnatural for most right-handed players. In PRO ONE the movement is always from left to right for right-handed players. In PRO ONE, shots A,B,C can be pocketed with a left to right, half-ball pivot. Constant left to right pivoting for right-handed players is the major variation of PRO ONE from Hal’s method of CTE. For lefties, the pivot would always be from right to left.

Within a straight line range of shots from Shot A to Shot C, there are at least 500 more shots that could have the same CB-OB relationship. All 500 shots can share a half-ball pivot for successful pocketing.

If I were to shoot any one of the 500 shots within the range of A to C, I would not worry about precision math calculations or exact wording to guide my every move. I’d want my subconscious mind and body to take over.

For any of the 500 shots I would first see CTE and align to CTE. Then, I would visually shift my sight to the right cue ball edge and allow my body/eyes to move slightly ‘right’ across the CTEL. My cue is following with its initial left to right movement. My eyes would have already located center cue ball at this stage of the process. My bridge hand would be sliding up the left cue ball edge line and arcing in toward center cue ball. During this ‘bridge hand slide’ my angled cue would arc by the left edge of the cue ball. My ‘bridge hand slide’ and arcing cue would land at center cue ball simultaneously. {My final bridge distance at actual aim would be about 7.5 inches. My bridge distance would not have been constant during its movement to center cue ball.}

What could the range of my total eye/body movement or offset across the CTEL be for the 500 shots in a line from A to C? Let’s call it a range of 3/8 of an inch. Divide 3/8 by 500 to determine my incremental eye location or visual aim difference for each of the 500 shots. I get .075 of an inch. One’s visual and bodily intelligence can easily manage all 500 shots with uncanny precision. It all comes back to the fact that there are countless shots on a pool table. A great way to handle the vast array of shots is to use CTE.

Within one’s brain, there are 2 separate physical locations that separately deal with objects and spacial relationships simultaneously. OBJECTS: table surface, cue, balls, rails and pockets---SPACIAL RELATIONSHIPS: body/cue/table distances, varying bridge distance, CB/OB distance and OB/pocket distance. This can get very complicated! { Knowledgable PHDs can be extremely challenged when assigned to write about the inner workings of what happens when a person touches his finger to his nose.} I’d personally like to see a doctoral dissertation that describes the inner workings of what a pool player does mentally, visually and bodily to successfully execute a shot such as shot C.

Hal Houle learned that through CTE a player can quickly tap into the purity of aiming. A key factor in CTE is that the shooter learns to largely disengage his conscious mind from the aiming process. Your mind’s eye can easily perceive each of the 500 shots referenced above as ‘one’.

Subconscious aiming by way of CTE is available to any player within days or weeks and certainly no longer than months after having learned the process. CTE can be learned in as little as 5 hours. Does this mean you’ll be pocketing balls like a pro in short order? No, but your process of arriving at an actual aim will be very pro-like in short order.

IMO, CTE is nothing less than a precious gift, a gift from its inventor, Hal Houle.

Stan Shuffett
Thank you for the clear, concise summary. It sheds light on all the questions I have about the topic.
 
If you truly do the exact same thing on all three shots (like a robot following a set of instructions with absolutely no varieance), it is impossible for all three shots to go. You must agree with this. So you must be doing something different, even if you are not aware or conscious of what you might be doing different.

Here's another way to look at it: If you pocket shot "A," and there is an instant reply machine that makes you do the exact same thing, and I shift your body, bridge and final cue direction to shot "B" and repeat the exact same stroke, shot "B" will not go in the pocket. In other words, you need to do something different to pocket shot "B." That's what we are trying to determine ... what different people do differently to pocket all three shots.

Regards,
Dave

I do not agree. Why won't shot "B" go in the pocket. Enlighten me.
 
That's a lot closer than I thought it would be, with hardly any change in bridge length. And that's quite a range of angles from 44 to 89 degrees. Could you try a couple of more ... maybe 10 and 30? If CTCP (Center-to-Contact-Point) can be shown to work for a wide range of angles, maybe it will become the "new CTE" or "Pro Two." I'll reserve judgment until I see more diagrams and try out a bunch of shots at the table.

Thanks,
Dave

PS: BTW, it's "CB center to OB contact point", not "OB contact point to center of OB."

Dave,
OB contact point to center of OB is better but not the nuts. Perhaps with the "air pivot" or imagination it is close enough.
View attachment 135230
 
I do not agree. Why won't shot "B" go in the pocket. Enlighten me.

That's the wrong question. The question is why does the same procedure give different cut angles? The answer is it doesn't. If you are truly not varying anything then you might be able to sink two cheating the pocket on at least one shot. If you make all three you are subconsciously compensating as Mr. Shuffett described in his post.
 
That's a lot closer than I thought it would be, with hardly any change in bridge length. And that's quite a range of angles from 44 to 89 degrees. Could you try a couple of more ... maybe 10 and 30? If CTCP (Center-to-Contact-Point) can be shown to work for a wide range of angles, maybe it will become the "new CTE" or "Pro Two." I'll reserve judgment until I see more diagrams and try out a bunch of shots at the table.

Thanks,
Dave

PS: BTW, it's "CB center to OB contact point", not "OB contact point to center of OB."

Wouldn't the change in pivot length be proportional to changing shot distance?
 
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I do not agree. Why won't shot "B" go in the pocket. Enlighten me.
Shot "B" obviously goes in the pocket if you adjust the pivot slightly relative to the Shot "A" pivot, even if done so only subconsciously, as Stan has suggested.

Please let us know what you do differently when you pocket the three shots you asked me to post. In other words, if somebody were watching you incredibly closely when you line up for the three different shots, what differences in your alignment and/or pivot steps would they observe if they were very observant? I'm not asking you what the standard CTE answer is, if there is one. I'm just asking what you do as an individual.

Thanks,
Dave
 
Wouldn't the change in pivot length be proportional to changing shot distance?
Excellent point. So I guess CTCP is doomed to fail. Shucks ... it was looking pretty good for a while there.

FYI, I covered this effect in detail in my November '08 BD article. Check it out. Here's Diagram 2 from the article:

aim_fixed_pivot.jpg

So the distance between the balls has a dramatic effect on the resulting cut angle of the shot for a fixed alignment and pivot.

Interestingly, with the exact same initial alignment and pivot, two of the three balls can be made if the pocket happens to be at points "a," "b," or "c." This would actually be a good proposition shot. Approach somebody like PJ and bet him you can make two radically different shots (e.g., shots "A" and "B" in the diagram) with the exact same initial alignment and the exact same pivot. You can even have PJ shoot the shots for you ... his aim and stroke are fairly good. If the balls are lined up to take advantage of the effect shown in the diagram (i.e., if the balls are lined up so the corner pocket is at point "a" relative to the balls), both shots will go and you will win the bet. Although, PJ is a bad example because he's probably smart enough to know this trick already.

Regards,
Dave
 
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