Women in U.S. Open

Bola Ocho said:
I've already seen it at the IPT tournaments and elsewhere.


Aside from actual tournament evidence, one can look at TPA numbers. If you do an honest job at figuring WPBA player's TPA, they're not as good as the men. The women make more positional errors, more misses etc. This translates to less run outs, less wins. Their B&R percentage is lower. So forth and so on.


There really is no debate, the facts are facts and the evidence is all there, I'm just having fun myth busting these dreamers who think their favorite female player can be a force in a serious men's tournament.


Look, there's nothing wrong with being a fan of women's pro pool. I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. I think they play fine. They really do. But let's not get carried away.


I'm here to provide a reality check.;)
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Okay Mr. Reality, I'm going to offer you the same bet I offered Bartram. If Jasmin plays, I will bet $100 on her in every match she plays. You have her opponent in every match, even if it's Johnny Archer or Earl Srickland. We will bet on all her matches, $100 on each one. Put up or shut up!
 
Im curious to see if the women will be "placed" like they did with foreigners in the past.

Stay outta my bracket rousy!!!!!!
 
akaTrigger said:
First of all, Good luck in this tournament, Sarah!

Second, are you saying there are only 16 spots for the women? If so, does anyone know why?
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I believe it is 16 spots for the WPBA pros. That doesn't mean other women can't enter. Correct me if I'm wrong Sarah. I thought I was wrong once, but then I found out I was mistaken. :D
 
sarahrousey said:
I'm not sure if it is 16 women in general or just 16 WPBA spots.
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Barry is not shutting off women's entries at sixteen, that much I can tell you for sure. Maybe the WPBA is shutting off "their" numbers at sixteen. That I don't know.
 
JB Cases said:
Then you saw Loree Jon Jones put a five pack on Thorsten Hohmann at the IPT and beat him? And you saw Gerda beat Earl? And you saw Kelly lose 8:7 against Dennis Orcullo? Dennis told Kelly afterward that she played very strong and that he was lucky to win.

Elsewhere? Where would that be? How about the Joss Tour? Karen Corr consistently finishes high on that tour and has won two of them. Once over former world champion Jim Rempe and once over, hold your breath World and US Open champion Mika Immonen. That's WON the event, not won a set or two. She double dipped Rempe IIRC.

The only Southeast Tour stop that Allison Fisher played in she beat former US OPEN winner Tommy Kennedy in the finals.

What other major events have the women played in alongside the men?

Derby City? How high has Jeannette finished there? In any event she proved she can hang when she won the Louie Roberts for 2010. We all watched her put some solid pool together that week.



Um yeah of course in general "the men" are going to play at a higher level than "the women". It's simple math as there are far more more men playing than women. More men, more competition, higher level on average.




Ask Mika if he thinks Karen Corr is a pushover in the finals. Ask Tommy Kennedy if Allison is easy to beat. I guess the World Straight Pool Championships where Jasmin Ouschan got 3rd place wasnt a serious "men's" tournament?

I mean if you are all about the evidence then the real evidence is that women can make it to finals against tough fields and they can win in the finals against tough players.

Is it LIKELY that a woman will win the US Open any time soon? Probably not but not for the reason that they don't (at least not the top female players) possess the ability to do so. They have the skills but what they don't have is the seasoning against top competition like the men do.

The top women are in fact middle of the pack players among professional caliber players worldwide. They share the same level as MOST professional players. Not everyone can be a SVB or Johnny Archer. But at least they NOW have a chance to compete against the same field that SVB gets to and Johnny Archer gets to.




Who is getting carried away? Only you are putting negativity out there over this. I didn't see anyone in Jay's thread claiming that the women were going to dominate the event.

You come on here and make claims that aren't true as the evidence shows that women have in fact won tournaments against "the men". And the more that women play the more sets they seem to winning against "the men". Could it be that being ALLOWED to play against the men helps them to elevate their own game?

Something about if you want to be the best you have to play the best? Well if the girls are told they can only play each other and they aren't allowed to play "the men" who are considered "the best" then why would they ever get any better?

Look Bolo, there will plenty of action for you to bet on. Since you think that the women have no shot then bet it? Show us where your heart is and come up with odds that prove your conviction.

Make a line on what the women will do at the US Open and bet it.

Come up with some odds against performing well that cause me to get my nose open. You say the stats are there proving that the women have no shot? Ok I believe you, bet it then. I will take the astronomical, lottery sized odds that you should be prepared to offer.

Here I will throw one line out there - 100-1 that a woman makes the top ten this year. 1000 to 1 that a woman wins the US Open this year. 500 to one that a woman makes the top five.

100 to one that a woman beats a former US Open champion sometime during the tournament contingent on women actually having matches against former US Open winners.

I will bet $100 on each of these lines. The odds against any of these things, with the exception of beating a former US Open champion have to be much much higher than what I am offering. So I will take the sucker side of it and bet it. Do we have a bet? Anyone?
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I love your cases. You make the best cases, and best interiors for cases. But you don't make the best arguments.
 
jay helfert said:
Barry is not shutting off women's entries at sixteen, that much I can tell you for sure. Maybe the WPBA is shutting off "their" numbers at sixteen. That I don't know.
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Thank goodness! I woulda had to start thread # 82 about women in the US Open if that was the case. :p
 
sarahrousey said:
You have valid points. I have always been pretty open with the fact that the men play better than the women. It is the truth. Sure, anyone is capable of beating anyone one set or a few sets. I hope you know that the women have no chance of becoming better players, without playing better players. You have the million reason debate as to why the men play better even though this is supposd to be a genderless, even game...this is the only way to bridge the gap over time.
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Well, I hope so. But I remain skeptical. Because I am a skeptic does not mean that I am a proponent of women not improving.

It's standard procedure in this forum for people to misunderstand what I'm saying, probably because they have reading disabilities. (not you). Unfortunately, they try and paint me at some kind of opponent or enemy. The cling onto only few words I say, and never take the whole to get a proper context.


The problem that I do have with your comments, well there are a few, but I will start with the fact that you are not taking into consideration that any man, no matter what level, can enter this tournament and has been able to for 30 years. I'm not sure if you have ever gone to a US Open and watched some of the play, but there are players that you would say worse things about than the top women. I have watched matches at the Open and said, "wow, I wish I could play if I could draw that person." Then I realize, hey that is a little disrespectful because if you have $500 you would like to spend on your entry and your dream has always been to play against the worlds best, you have every right to do so.
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No doubt about it. You're right. I've seen some guys that have no business being there. As for being disrespectful, I really don't give a....Sure it's their right. I call them contributors. LOL. They came to contribute $500.

Next, you think that 30-40 women will try to play. I will tell you right now, that there are 16 spots open to the women. The top 16 get the first pick. So as you can see, it isn't just any woman coming to "fill" the tournament. I would be willing to bet there are at least double that amount of men that are there to "fill" the tournament.
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I got the 30-40 figure from the other thread. I referred to the women as "filler" ...it's the others who are doing that. They don't realize that they are doing more harm than good in their effort to support women in the U.S. Open with their argument when they base it on the fact that there are byes because they don't get a full 256. Hence, the "let women play, cause we can't fill the Open" angle. I criticized that.

Next, not all of the women put on a show to the crowd. Sure, there are a few that play the crowd, but that is a certain persona that they have decided to run with because it sells for them. Not ALL of us are like that!
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Thank God.

Unfortunately, they tend to televise and focus in on the drama queens. Which is a big reason I no longer watch.

That's all I have for now. Like I said, I agree with you on some points, but some of them, you are way off. I'm sure I could say more but I have to go back to work. I will end with saying that I am playing this year. My entry is already paid. I might be one of the "fillers" or I might not. All I can do is say that I tried. And just so you know, I will fire my $500 every year from here on out just because I can.

Sarah
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Good luck Sarah, I hope you kick some ass at the Open and have a great time while there. For sure it will be a great experience.
 
Here's a list of the top 20 in the WPBA:

1 Ouschan, Jasmin 83000
2 Kim, Ga Young 75000
3 Pan, Xiaoting 74000
4 Corr, Karen 68000
5 Fisher, Kelly 66000
6 Fisher, Allison 60000
7 Hofstatter, Gerda 59000
8 Villarreal, Vivian 52000
9 Lee, Jeanette 47000
10 Kjorsvik, Line 40000
11 Hines, Tracie 38000
12 Shaw, Kim 36000
12 Sone, Kyoko 36000
14 Webb, Monica 35000
15 Little, Melissa 32500
16 Thornfeldt, Helena 32000
17 Rousey, Sarah 30500
18 Cha, Yu Ram 29000
19 Smith, Laura 26000
20 White, Kim 24000


Assuming all the WPBA pros come from this list & some of the Asian talent comes to play as well, someone give me odds on the following:

Female to beat a former US Open champion:
Female to beat a 2009 Mosconi Cup team member (US or Europe):
Female to place in top 16:
Female to place in top 4:
Female to get the hotseat:
Female to win:
 
maybe its not us

Bola Ocho said:
Well, I hope so. But I remain skeptical. Because I am a skeptic does not mean that I am a proponent of women not improving.

It's standard procedure in this forum for people to misunderstand what I'm saying, probably because they have reading disabilities. (not you). Unfortunately, they try and paint me at some kind of opponent or enemy. The cling onto only few words I say, and never take the whole to get a proper context.


well you can speak of my reading disability if you wish, but if everyone is misunderstanding you maybe, just maybe its that you are wrong. i know thats a weird thought, but you should consider it. i dont view you as an opponent or an enemy. i just think youre on the wrong side of this argument. JB happened to make all the points that needed to be made.

brian-apologizes for my reading disability preventing me from understanding how you are right here.
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Who cares?

They are playing this year no matter of anyone's opinion this year. Let's just see how they do, then talk about it.
 
jay helfert said:
Okay Mr. Reality, I'm going to offer you the same bet I offered Bartram. If Jasmin plays, I will bet $100 on her in every match she plays. You have her opponent in every match, even if it's Johnny Archer or Earl Srickland. We will bet on all her matches, $100 on each one. Put up or shut up!
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You keep peddling this sucker bet in search of a sucker, well I am not he. Sorry.


The way I understand your bet works like this:


You're betting that Jasmin will win, at minimum, one time on the winners side (1st round) and one time on the loser's side (2nd B-side). Double elimination means, a taker of your bet can win $200 max, whereas, you will will $100 on each of her matches. If she gets the minimum I stated above, you've covered her two losses later on, all else is gravy for you.


That's not a good bet for anyone to take. Good chance she'll draw someone weak in the first round. Possibly even the 2nd round, but if not and she loses, will go to loser's bracket against another weak player who lost 2nd round on winner's. That's worst case with the exception of drawing two strong opponents in a row that will eliminate her quick - which is the ONLY chance someone has to win your bet.




The problem is that you're twisting the discussion to suit you. In my post, I said that Jasmin/Allison (the elite women players) can make it half way - which I would define 4-5 rounds winners, or a little more losers side. So I am not opposed to the idea that Jasmin can play. That's your strawman. I'm well aware of her performance on the Eurotour against men. She places well, and those tournaments are pretty tough. Some 17th place finishes. She has some notable wins over big names, but has lost more times against big name players than she has won. Regardless, she has done well against the weaker men pros.


My statements focus around how women are not as good as the men. That's true. That said, Jasmin isn't going to win the Open. It is highly unlikely she makes it to the quarter or semi-finals. But this thread isn't about Jasmin or ANY specific female player.
 
jay helfert said:
I don't even know where to begin to answer the OP. I guess I can just say I disagree with him on almost all counts. But he is entitled to his opinion. I happen to believe that having the top women play in the Open is a good thing, and will prove to be very popular. And that is my opinion.
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Jay, you're absolutely right and I totally agree with you.
 
Bola Ocho said:
You keep peddling this sucker bet in search of a sucker, well I am not he. Sorry.


The way I understand your bet works like this:


You're betting that Jasmin will win, at minimum, one time on the winners side (1st round) and one time on the loser's side (2nd B-side). Double elimination means, a taker of your bet can win $200 max, whereas, you will will $100 on each of her matches. If she gets the minimum I stated above, you've covered her two losses later on, all else is gravy for you.


That's not a good bet for anyone to take. Good chance she'll draw someone weak in the first round. Possibly even the 2nd round, but if not and she loses, will go to loser's bracket against another weak player who lost 2nd round on winner's. That's worst case with the exception of drawing two strong opponents in a row that will eliminate her quick - which is the ONLY chance someone has to win your bet.




The problem is that you're twisting the discussion to suit you. In my post, I said that Jasmin/Allison (the elite women players) can make it half way - which I would define 4-5 rounds winners, or a little more losers side. So I am not opposed to the idea that Jasmin can play. That's your strawman. I'm well aware of her performance on the Eurotour against men. She places well, and those tournaments are pretty tough. Some 17th place finishes. She has some notable wins over big names, but has lost more times against big name players than she has won. Regardless, she has done well against the weaker men pros.


My statements focus around how women are not as good as the men. That's true. That said, Jasmin isn't going to win the Open. It is highly unlikely she makes it to the quarter or semi-finals. But this thread isn't about Jasmin or ANY specific female player.
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Okay, now we know you're not a sucker. :rolleyes:
So you are saying maybe a women can make it half way, or into the final 128 in a full 256 field. Is that correct?

How about I propose a new bet for you. I will bet that at least one women makes it three quarters of the way, to the final 64 players. Even money - $100. Is that good enough for you, oh master handicapper?

Maybe you want some odds, my few weak playing women against all your champion men! My gut feeling is that you are really a lock artist who wouldn't bet two big dogs could whip one little one.

I also think the only posts on here you have read clearly are your own.
 
My personal opinion is that an open is an open, but I'll throw you my own curve ball.

The game ( 9ball) itself throws more of a variable in the mix of who the best player is and who makes it to the end without lucky breaks than allowing women to play does. Are you kidding? Frigging shame pool has degenerated into 9 ball being the game of favor.

You really wanna see who the best players in the world are then throw all this bang em up, slam em around, duck and run, ball in hand, stuff out the window and play real pool. Pool that will tell you who is the best.

Straight pool should be the only game to determine the best in the world, not some bang em around ball in hand game, and then HAVE THE NERVE to blame the women of all things for bringing the game down.

Like I said, 9 ball itself does a much better job of introducing luck into the tournament than the women ever will with the draw.
 
Bola Ocho said:
I love your cases. You make the best cases, and best interiors for cases. But you don't make the best arguments.
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omg, you gotta be kidding. you put up your "evidence", and now you have been presented with contradicting evidence, but all you can say is that his evidence isn't as good as yours... are you out of your f'n mind?
 
3andstop said:
My personal opinion is that an open is an open, but I'll throw you my own curve ball.

The game ( 9ball) itself throws more of a variable in the mix of who the best player is and who makes it to the end without lucky breaks than allowing women to play does. Are you kidding? Frigging shame pool has degenerated into 9 ball being the game of favor.

You really wanna see who the best players in the world are then throw all this bang em up, slam em around, duck and run, ball in hand, stuff out the window and play real pool. Pool that will tell you who is the best.

Straight pool should be the only game to determine the best in the world, not some bang em around ball in hand game, and then HAVE THE NERVE to blame the women of all things for bringing the game down.

Like I said, 9 ball itself does a much better job of introducing luck into the tournament than the women ever will with the draw.
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Well if we do take straight pool as the ultimate test of skill then Jasmin Ouschan had to score one for the ladies when she took third at the World 14.1 last year.

Sorry Bolo, but that's a bit of "evidence" on the other side.
 
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