The break is a special situation because a ball is not called on the break yet if a ball goes in the player gets to continue shooting.
On a dry break the incoming player cannot give the table back but does have the option of pushing out.
Impact of call shot on US Open 10 ball
- Thread starter David_Smith
- Start date
The break is a special situation because a ball is not called on the break yet if a ball goes in the player gets to continue shooting.
On a dry break the incoming player cannot give the table back but does have the option of pushing out.
You and I have differed on this issue before, and I am pretty sure neither of us will change the other's mind.
But you say Texas Express has worked pretty well and ain't broke. Well, men's pro tournament pool has has had nothing but failed attempts to create a solid tour, or to attract consistently large in-person audiences for events (some exceptions), or to attract much television coverage, or to provide a reasonable living for more than a few of its best players. I don't pretend that reducing the element of luck is likely to change any of that, but I doubt that it would hurt in those regards, either.
While it is true that champions usually win the major events (i.e., no one completely lucks their way to victory in a pro field), that's not to say that the same guys would have won the same events if the rules reduced the element of luck a little more than under Texas Express rules.
I would contend that the rules have had little to do with the success or failure of any of the above. Once again, pool has garnered good television ratings in Asia and Europe. Because it hasn't done as well in the U.S. television markets does not mean the rules need changing. Pool as a sport does not any longer revolve around the USA. American tournaments are only one part of the overall equation.
Your last argument about the top players winning the major events (with Texas Express rules) only lends credence to what I'm saying. Once again, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. It's not the rules that need fixing.
This was done a bit half-assed. They should have done the "no crap safe" rule as well. It's not OK to luck in a ball, but it's OK to luck a safe? I don't see the sence in that at the pro level.
US OPEN 10-BALL Rules
The one glaring problem (to me) in what you guys are referring to is the missed ball situation.
If I miss a ball, the opponent can make me shoot again.
This will stop me (and everyone) from shooting at difficult shots and the whole game will become a safety game. That is not what 10-Ball is about.
There will always be a little luck. And there should be '2-way' shots.
Mark Griffin
The one glaring problem (to me) in what you guys are referring to is the missed ball situation.
If I miss a ball, the opponent can make me shoot again.
This will stop me (and everyone) from shooting at difficult shots and the whole game will become a safety game. That is not what 10-Ball is about.
There will always be a little luck. And there should be '2-way' shots.
Mark Griffin
There's this one guy, Efren I think his name is, who says he lucked his way through most of the tournaments he's won....
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Me neither. I spoke up as much as I could when the rules of 10 ball were being decided, but they ended up as call shot. I'm not sure exactly how that happened.
If you feel that the game is too random to determine well who the better player is, play longer matches. But I think any match that takes about two hours is sufficient, except maybe for world championships.
if I had a say.. which I don't.. I'd have world championships in each discipline be old school round Robins..
determine 8 "Majors" in each discipline and have the top 2 finishers not already qualified become qualified for the World Championships..
that gives you a 16 players round robin to determine the world champion..
if wishes were horses.....
as far as call shot count me as all for it.
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The rules played by at the SBE were ridiculous. The notion that if you miss a shot that was legally executed and then the incoming player can just hand it back to you and sit back down, is just plain dumb. The WPA version played at the Open were better. All the constant rule tweaking is getting out of hand. I wouldn't have even watched the World Pool Masters if it was streamed given the ridiculous rules Matchroom comes up with. Yeah, you make two balls on the break but a third doesn't go past the head string and you have to sit down and give the table to your opponent. Brilliant.
See comments in blue above.
The break is not call shot. And if the racks were tapped the 10 would never go straight in on the break.
Sorry, but I'm missing your point. I'm advocating "no-slop" rules of some sort. The WPA 10-ball rules are one such set of rules. Making the 10 on the break is one type of slop shot, and is not counted as a win under WPA 10-ball rules.
Even if the racks were "tapped," it's possible for the 10-ball to be made on the break.
So why change the rules then? As for your other comment, I don't see the same player(s) winning every event or even most of them. Unless you want to lump all the filipino players together. There are at least 12-15 "favorites" in every major tourney I attend. And maybe another ten "dark horses."
Yes, it's possible and that's one reason for letting it count. Using the new racks (and tight equipment), making the ten ball is happening less and less. And when it happens, the crowd erupts. That's a good thing! I would contend that in today's tournament environment, far fewer ten balls go on the break than nine balls in similar events. And they (nine ball on the break) counted for a zillion years and no one complained. It was just part of the game.
Really? Is this how the game was played in the Super-Billiards Expo? The matches I've seen from youtube don't seem that much different from the regular rules.
To me it seems like it shouldn't change the game too much. If you have a difficult shot, the probability that you miss and leave the balls in a configuration where you wouldn't take the shot is still pretty small. Even if the ball is snookered, I'd expect most pros to take the shot, at least if it's a simple one/two rail kick or a jump-shot.
I'm not saying that this is the way it should be, but I thought that it wouldn't change the nature of the game too much. I could be wrong, though.
I think that's kind of the core of the whole thing. Rotation games have a lot of chances for rolls to affect the outcome of the game... so to even things out you need a long race. But very long races are lousy for tournaments (and spectators) and almost nothing is long enough to truly separate two players who might have a 1% difference in skill. We've seen top players grind it out in TAR races to 100 and be dead even after 70+ games.
So it becomes about who is playing best on that particular day. Or that particular hour. I won't say the outcome is all luck but I can see the mindset... "there's already a lot of luck in this we can't change, let's fix the bits we CAN change."
I always looked at allowing slop as your just reward for making a nice hit on a kick. It's a case of "luck is the residue of skill". Slopped balls outside of kicks are so rare as to not bear mentioning.
The fact that a particular type of slop shot is of low frequency does not argue in favor of allowing it.
As I've said in other threads, if slopping in balls happened every second shot, then things would pretty much even out, even in the short space of one match or one tournament. But slop is fairly rare among the pros. So when it does happen it can be intensely critical to the outcome of the match. Suppose they had been counting 10-on-the-break yesterday as a win. And suppose the only one of the day came with the score tied 12-12 in the finals. Is that how you want an event to end? I don't. The fact that an audience "erupts" is not a good reason. Audiences often "erupt" in sports out of ignorance rather than for truly skilled actions. Audiences sit on their hands when someone makes a remarkable multi-rail kick through extreme traffic but they "erupt" when someone makes the game ball on the break.
And your statement that no one complained for a zillion years about the 9 on the break isn't quite right. Grady has been advocating no-slop rules for decades.
Hard to disagree with Jay but you do a pretty good job of it
I bet at some point some other major names have complained. To hear Earl, just making the wingball on the break is a crime against humanity. There's no way he's in favor of golden breaks. It's worth pointing out that not only do some major "household names" complain about slop, about 5385129489184918 unknown 9ballers have bìtched and moaned about their opponent puts in a 9 on the break. That has to count for something.
I'm glad I'm coming up in a pool generation that offers perfect racks that prevent it.
I don't mind anyone saying "well if it makes the crowd erupt and pool is more popular as a result, let's keep it." ...we just should be honest about that, and admit keeping golden breaks is more about entertainment than keeping the game fair.
There seems to be a lot of disagreement that there should be no call shot and safety in 10 ball, yet every pro that has commentated on the streams I watched was FOR having call shot and safety. If I'm playing for $50 a rack, I sure as heck don't want to lose because someone missed a shot and left me hooked behind one of 2 balls left on the table.
Just to add a story, played a guy 10-ball per game, he was never up the whole night, and I was up 4-5 at various points. We ended up even because the place closed. Next day or 2, we play 9-ball, he is up 7 games on me due to just hitting the balls hard, re-arranging the table and leaving me behind balls when he missed. At even our non-pro level, this random crap needs to end. I've seen a guy miss 8 balls 2 games in a row, have them drop into some other pocket and win the set. Where is the skill in that? Might as well shoot dice.
Just to add a story, played a guy 10-ball per game, he was never up the whole night, and I was up 4-5 at various points. We ended up even because the place closed. Next day or 2, we play 9-ball, he is up 7 games on me due to just hitting the balls hard, re-arranging the table and leaving me behind balls when he missed. At even our non-pro level, this random crap needs to end. I've seen a guy miss 8 balls 2 games in a row, have them drop into some other pocket and win the set. Where is the skill in that? Might as well shoot dice.