Testing Cues for Straightness
- Thread starter John Biddle
- Start date
The problem in trying to see if some thing is straight is to have the object mounted on the Airy Points. Depending on the grain and make up of a shaft, it can appear to be bent when in fact it is not, it is just bend more and then less as it is rotated due to the less flexing taking place with the grain.A vertical test arraingement takes gravity away from pulling a shaft sideways. Not evryone is going to have one of these.
What I have never seen is a value as to what is considered straight enough to be fit for purpose.
What I have never seen is a value as to what is considered straight enough to be fit for purpose.
I have to disagree with all your method's, in my opinion there are far to many variables to test cues for straightness using any of the method's you outlined. The only way to tell how straight a cue may be is to put it between centers on an accurate lathe and turn it between centers. Your method will not identify what the problem is and if you don't know what the problem is you can not truly say that there is a problem only speculate.
JIMO
Craig, I'd disagree.
If that jointed cue is not perfectly straight, no way that ferrule doesn't wobble .
Sometimes that ferrule might wobble if there is a flat side or swell near the joint but the cue technically might still have two end-centers dead on.
Rolling on the table IMHO is not fair extremely compound taper cues.
Straight taper cues with "pro-taper" shafts IMHO roll better. They have one angle and soft shaft front. They "hug" the table better.
Using the rail just above the shaft collar and rolling the cue slowly, looking at that ferrule and A-joint section I think is the better way.
Between centers works if the pin's center hole is good or if it even has a center.
Of course, we know straight cues are overrated anyway.
How many shortstops get their shafts done and you laugh when you spin them?
I don't have a lathe so this is how I check cues
When I check a cue the first thing I want to know is the shaft straight.
I do this by spinning not rolling the shaft on a flat surface, ie table edge. You get down at eye level, there will be a space. You want to look for variance in that space as you spin the shaft around. None or very little shaft is straight
You then assemble the cue, roll it on the table get down at eye level and look for variance of space again. None or very little you have a straight cue.:thumbup2:
I do not think that rail rolling a cue is a good or accurate way. It relies on subjective veiwing and does not check the shaft alone.
When I check a cue the first thing I want to know is the shaft straight.
I do this by spinning not rolling the shaft on a flat surface, ie table edge. You get down at eye level, there will be a space. You want to look for variance in that space as you spin the shaft around. None or very little shaft is straight
You then assemble the cue, roll it on the table get down at eye level and look for variance of space again. None or very little you have a straight cue.:thumbup2:
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The roller method is by far the best method to use. I used to work at Sterling, and we checked every cue before it went out. We had a long (about 6.5 feet) shelf on the wall, and a product that I think was called Pocket Lathe, which was a pair of small plastic bases with two hard rubber wheels on top. When you lay a cue across the rollers, and roll the cue, any problem with straightness becomes immediately obvious.
Steve
(If I'm wrong on that product name, someone please correct me...at my age, my memory isn't what it used to be!)
The problem with this method is the base is not properly leveled, and the exact diameter of the rubber wheel your talking about may not be exactly the same size which will cause an instability when spinning the cue.
Like I have already said, the only method that will show how straight the cue actually may be is a lathe. When a cue is built it is turned between centers through all phases of it's construction. Generally the cue cues pin is one center and when the bumper is removed the other center is exposed. The rear center can be the head of the cues weight bolt if it has one, or a hole tapped dead center in the cues butt. By turning between these centers there should be no movement, and by placing a dial indicator dead center on a butt, joint, or shaft movement the eye can't detect will be obvious this is how you check straightness.
So in the end your idea of straight and mine are totally different, but it all depends how anal one wants to be, but that needs to be another thread.
JIMO
So in the end your idea of straight and mine are totally different, but it all depends how anal one wants to be, but that needs to be another thread.
If the cue is 1/8" crooked, CTE might not work.
Joey we can agree to disagree to many factors can make a rolled cue not roll true, including the surface it is rolled on, I have no faith in any of these methods. I do agree that you can not always use the cues pin for turning between centers but there are other ways to skin that cat and we both know there is. I will stand by what I said Joey, but again I do agree that a cues straightness is over rated and in the end it only becomes an excuse in many cases for a missed shot. However, all I can say is let the rollers roll, everyone must have confidence in the cue they use and if this is what gives them that confidence it is fine with me it will put their sanity in question not mine!!!
My biggest problem with this thread is that I kinda feel like the blind are leading the blind and in the end people will believe whoever makes the most noise which only clouds the issue further, I really don't know what else to say.
Take care Joey and have a great night!!
Now that is funny shit, John Barton is going to get mad at you Dude because I have never seen a Chinese cue that is that straight!!!
Thanks for the laugh!!!
Tap, tap, tap Joey...... In all my years of cue making 
I have made some crooked cues..... I even went out and played with those cues just for giggles and it really ain't no thing.
I have worked on some shafts that have been sanded too much on one side, and even just straight wobbly. The players who bring these cues in ain't too shabby of a pool player either..... what's important to know is that 95% of the cues I work on are not 100% straight...... it is real funny when you say that, cause I laugh my ass off every time....... and sometimes the player gets offended.... :rotflmao1:
I have made some crooked cues..... I even went out and played with those cues just for giggles and it really ain't no thing. I have worked on some shafts that have been sanded too much on one side, and even just straight wobbly. The players who bring these cues in ain't too shabby of a pool player either..... what's important to know is that 95% of the cues I work on are not 100% straight...... it is real funny when you say that, cause I laugh my ass off every time....... and sometimes the player gets offended.... :rotflmao1:
Lots of interesting commentary here guys, thanks.
If a cue is not straight then the tip will move off line as the cue is stroked toward the ball. So you will not be hitting the ball in exactly the place you intend to.
Complicating this, and making it tough to adjust for, the error will not be in the same direction all the time. Sometimes you'll hit too low, sometimes too far to the right, etc. If you held the cue in exactly the same orientation you could adjust, but who does that besides snooker players?
Now, the size of the error is important, since if the error is small enough it will be swamped by the error in the stroke itself. And the ability of the player is important because the worse the player is, the bigger the imperfection in the cue they could use without it having an effect on their game.
Conversely, the better the player, the smaller the error it would take in cue straightness to have a meaningful effect on results. And all of this is magnified as the shots get longer.
I don't have a good feel, let alone a formula, for how big this meaningful error would be, but clearly there is one. The fact that a shortstop can play well with a non-straight cue isn't a surprise, but your belief that he can't play better with a straight one is.
Good pool is about approaching perfection as closely as one can. Hitting the ball in exactly the right place, with exactly the right power is important. How much difference do you think there is between how far off the greats are and how far off shortstops are, on average? A straight cue can make a difference.
Clearly all the mental aspects of being a great player are being left out of this, not because they aren't important to the game but because they aren't important to the straightness issue for any one player.
If a very good player could guarantee that he/she would hit the cue ball 1/16th or 1/32nd of an inch closer to their aiming point, wouldn't they jump at the chance?
If a cue is not straight then the tip will move off line as the cue is stroked toward the ball. So you will not be hitting the ball in exactly the place you intend to.
Complicating this, and making it tough to adjust for, the error will not be in the same direction all the time. Sometimes you'll hit too low, sometimes too far to the right, etc. If you held the cue in exactly the same orientation you could adjust, but who does that besides snooker players?
Now, the size of the error is important, since if the error is small enough it will be swamped by the error in the stroke itself. And the ability of the player is important because the worse the player is, the bigger the imperfection in the cue they could use without it having an effect on their game.
Conversely, the better the player, the smaller the error it would take in cue straightness to have a meaningful effect on results. And all of this is magnified as the shots get longer.
I don't have a good feel, let alone a formula, for how big this meaningful error would be, but clearly there is one. The fact that a shortstop can play well with a non-straight cue isn't a surprise, but your belief that he can't play better with a straight one is.
Good pool is about approaching perfection as closely as one can. Hitting the ball in exactly the right place, with exactly the right power is important. How much difference do you think there is between how far off the greats are and how far off shortstops are, on average? A straight cue can make a difference.
Clearly all the mental aspects of being a great player are being left out of this, not because they aren't important to the game but because they aren't important to the straightness issue for any one player.
If a very good player could guarantee that he/she would hit the cue ball 1/16th or 1/32nd of an inch closer to their aiming point, wouldn't they jump at the chance?
ten years of gambling with house cues
John,
After ten years of gambling nightly with house cues, sometimes as my sole source of income, indexing a cue is as automatic as everything else about taking a shot. Few people realize I am indexing a cue partially because I never lose my index once I have found it once during a run. One of those things, I went twenty years or more without ever picking up a wet beer or soft drink in my left(bridge) hand regardless of where I was at. These are some of the things I watched for when judging other players speed when they were strangers.
When judging how much straightness of a cue matters you really have to consider how much bend is in maybe one to two inches of the shaft. Only the part in your bridge when you address the cue ball and when you hit it really matters and it takes a very crooked cue to be off much in an inch or two. A badly bowed butt or shaft changes the feedback from a cue. That is one of the more critical issues and I do think different tapers or a bow in a shaft affect speed, more important on a break cue.
The biggest problem with a bow is if somebody watches the tip going back and forth. I ran a poll awhile back and was assured that nobody does that!
If you don't watch the tip go back and forth the biggest issues a crooked stick causes are between the ears or when you want to sell it. I still expect a stick to be pretty straight simply because it is an obvious manifestation of the quality of the stick. If the cue builder didn't have the knowledge and equipment to make a straight stick I believe there are other shortcomings that aren't nearly so obvious.
I suspect this seemed a much simpler subject when you started the thread!
Hu
John,
After ten years of gambling nightly with house cues, sometimes as my sole source of income, indexing a cue is as automatic as everything else about taking a shot. Few people realize I am indexing a cue partially because I never lose my index once I have found it once during a run. One of those things, I went twenty years or more without ever picking up a wet beer or soft drink in my left(bridge) hand regardless of where I was at. These are some of the things I watched for when judging other players speed when they were strangers.
When judging how much straightness of a cue matters you really have to consider how much bend is in maybe one to two inches of the shaft. Only the part in your bridge when you address the cue ball and when you hit it really matters and it takes a very crooked cue to be off much in an inch or two. A badly bowed butt or shaft changes the feedback from a cue. That is one of the more critical issues and I do think different tapers or a bow in a shaft affect speed, more important on a break cue.
The biggest problem with a bow is if somebody watches the tip going back and forth. I ran a poll awhile back and was assured that nobody does that!
If you don't watch the tip go back and forth the biggest issues a crooked stick causes are between the ears or when you want to sell it. I still expect a stick to be pretty straight simply because it is an obvious manifestation of the quality of the stick. If the cue builder didn't have the knowledge and equipment to make a straight stick I believe there are other shortcomings that aren't nearly so obvious.
I suspect this seemed a much simpler subject when you started the thread!
Hu
If a cue is not straight then the tip will move off line as the cue is stroked toward the ball. So you will not be hitting the ball in exactly the place you intend to.
I am sorry but this statement is completely wrong, the only time a non-straight cue will effect where you hit the ball is if the un-true portion is within the sight and stroke zone of the shaft. If the problem is below 12 inches from the tip down it is imperceivable to the shooter and it will have no effect on any shot.
The only problem that occurs for many people when shooting pool is the fact that they look for excuses when they miss a shot. If they think their cue is straight, then they will blame the cues tip, if not the tip then this dirt on the table or it could be the music and on and on. In most cases for players who are new to the game the real problem is fundamentals, so if they think that their cue has a wobble it will in most cases effect their mind more than their stroke.
I am not trying to be disrespectful in any way, but this is how these mythes continue and they need to be stopped.
Have a great day
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Efren won the World 9-Ball, a US Open and World 8-Ball with a crooked $15 cue.
Shooting with a cue that isn't straight creates difficulties. Let me illustrate with a thought experiment since I am unable to do so with graphics.
Imagine a cue that is very badly warped, but just for Craig we'll imagine that the last 18" is dead straight.
While it's true that the player could watch the last 18 inches or less of the stick while he strokes so as to aim, he cannot be moving his arm in the same line as the visualized last 18" of the cue. The butt of the cue will have to be pointing in a different dierction than the end of the stick, making it very tough to get that kinesthetic sense for how to stroke.
Either the cue is moved along the line of the stroke and the tip doesn't land where you aim, or you manage to constrain the stroke in such a way that the last 18" (which I postulate in this example to be straight) moves along the aiming line but the rest of the cue does not. Neither of these options is conducive to maximizing performance.
The size of the problem is obviously decreased as the size of the straightness error is reduced. However, making it as easy as possible to stroke correctly, as well as maximizing the accuracy of one's aiming require a cue that is straight. Otherwise the motion of the stroking arm and of the end of the stick will be in different directions. And that problem gets worse if the cue isn't held in the same orientation on every stroke, though one could make a conscious effort to do that.
I didn't say it couldn't be done, only that it was harder to do than if the cue was straight. My point here is that it'll be easier to shoot accurately with a straight cue than with a crooked one, all other things being equal. I find it absolutely amazing that this idea isn't obvious.
The fact that Efren can shoot with a crooked cue doesn't mean it isn't harder, only that he's accomplished the task. The very idea that it gets brought up is an indication that people think it's amazing. Otherwise it wouldn't mean anything and would never get mentioned.
The shafts were warped.
They were hand sanded for years. Not even true round anymore.
Imagine a shaft with close to 12MM tip and a long "pro-taper", traveling for years between Asia and the US ( including Las Vegas ).
If it stayed straight, it'd be a miracle.
I had that cue in my hand at the table of Efren's road manager here the day
Mark Wilson called Efren about the color of money match in Hong Kong more than a decade ago. Efren had it in his case along with the new Meucci.
IF a cue is rolled on the table and it has some roll the thickness of a credit card, most would consider it crooked.
I understand all the hoopla about crooked cues. But i somewhat disagree that the tip is going to not hit the CB where you intended if its crooked.
If you dropped into the shot (without using B/H english) and placed the tip where you want it to hit on the cue ball and your stroking arm is at 90º then when you pull back and deliver forward the tip should hit the same spot IF USING A PENDULUM STROKE.
Just the same as I can tuck my elbow and have a stroke that swoops side to side, the grip hand drawing a "C" through the air during the stroke, the tip makes the same arch in and out....I can hit the same spot on the CB everytime stroking like that, and that stroke is CROOKED as hell.
If your set up to contact position, then when you pull back optimally you will return to that position upon delivery. Wether you want the bend up,down,left,right is arbitrary so long as you set up properly imop. Most descent cues with a little roll never really gave me any problems, least not that I ever noticed....as most of us know very few people have cues that are dead nuts when rolled on the rail...so some runout shouldn't be that big of a deal, if the world were perfect they would all be of the straightest straightness. But obviously there is a line b/t some runout and being an unplayable POS that we hope we dont have to cross.
anyone follow what I'm trying to say? Steve i may need your editing skills on this one lol.:grin:
If you dropped into the shot (without using B/H english) and placed the tip where you want it to hit on the cue ball and your stroking arm is at 90º then when you pull back and deliver forward the tip should hit the same spot IF USING A PENDULUM STROKE.
Just the same as I can tuck my elbow and have a stroke that swoops side to side, the grip hand drawing a "C" through the air during the stroke, the tip makes the same arch in and out....I can hit the same spot on the CB everytime stroking like that, and that stroke is CROOKED as hell.
If your set up to contact position, then when you pull back optimally you will return to that position upon delivery. Wether you want the bend up,down,left,right is arbitrary so long as you set up properly imop. Most descent cues with a little roll never really gave me any problems, least not that I ever noticed....as most of us know very few people have cues that are dead nuts when rolled on the rail...so some runout shouldn't be that big of a deal, if the world were perfect they would all be of the straightest straightness.
But obviously there is a line b/t some runout and being an unplayable POS that we hope we dont have to cross.anyone follow what I'm trying to say? Steve i may need your editing skills on this one lol.:grin:
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Just curious, how off are you guys defining an unstraight cue. And just where in the cue is this unstraightness? When you say "unstraight" the first thing I think of is not straight but not crooked either, or in other words something that is almost imperceptibly off would be "unstraight".
In which case you're making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to playing because most cues are "unstraight".
In which case you're making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to playing because most cues are "unstraight".
Even if there is some gap change in the middle of the shaft or the joint of the cue, then as long as the tip doesn't lift up when you roll the cue on the table surface then imop its straight enough by all means.....when the tip starts to lift when you roll the cue then you have a bigger issue.
I have a very nice 4 pointer, that from the handle to the tip is basically "perfect", the buttsleeve was changed by someone unqualified IMOP and the way they did the work the buttsleeve warped. So when I roll the cue it looks crooked as hell in that area, when I do hit a ball with it if I keep my grip hand above the buttsleeve then its not an issue.
Cues can warp in the forearm, the shaft, handle, buttsleeve....basically it can warp at any joint or tennon on the cue. Not having the shaft and butt joint faced off right will make the cue not straight. So will losing your center when installing the pin or the insert. Putting points in a cues forearm can also provide some warp resistance, as exotic hardwood points would strengthen and stabilize the softer maple (etc...) forearm wood
IMOP the most common areas to warp are of course the shaft, and I'd say the top section of the forearm would be 2nd most after the shaft.
But like I said if the tip doesn't come up when rolled together and apart (butt/shaft) then you have no problems IMOP, all the nit picking is for the resale or appraisal of the cue.