This Aiming System Crap is Killing Me

Let me put it to you this way Craw, you have played enough money matches, and faced enough pressure, that you know that there have been times when the pressure got to you more than you wanted it to, and you went a little brain dead for a little bit. You know that when that happens, and it has happened to all the serious players at one time or another, you can stare at that ob for what seems like minutes, and finally just have to guess on where to hit it. It might even be a shot that you would normally make 99 out of a hundred, but, right now, you just can't see it like you want to.

That is where aiming systems really come in handy for the better players. I have had that happen to me in tournament matches before, and that is when I stand up, take a breath, and aim the ball with a different aiming system. If that alone doesn't clear my mind, and it usually does, I KNOW that as long as I followed the system, the ball will go in, whether it feels like it or not at the time. I can now have my confidence back, and that bad feeling lasted less than one shot. It didn't affect my game except that I took a little longer on one shot. Now, tell me how that is not a good thing to have in your arsenal!

One other thing, except for the very top players, we all have shots that we tend to shy away from. Those of us that can play decent position, usually do it to set up shots in a certain way. What I have found with the systems I have messed with, is that they have increased my confidence level quite a bit on those 'uncomfortable' shots. Sure, we could practice those, and we should, but how often do we actually do that?? I have tried some of my uncomfortable shots without any system, and roughly kept track of my percentage on them. Then, I tried some of those shots using several systems, and, to be honest, I was pleasantly surprised to find that my percentage was much higher using them. Now, some of them are no longer classified under 'uncomfortable'.
Perfect. I have habits and mannerisms I've learned over the years to create my own system, just like you. I just get tired of watching people telling beginners to "learn this system" or "that system". It takes years and people's personal experiences to know how they will react under certain circumstances.

To each person out there....

Watch and learn from ALL players, good and even the bad to create your own personal system.

There. Does that make sense.

Oh yeah, it won't happen overnight.
 
By the way, I bet another of our members that I could have two pages of responses in less than two hours by playing the devil's advocate, with me only answering back questions with retort. Thanks guys.
 
aiming sytems

Crawfish,
I really dont understand the CTE system and Ive tried but when I did I found myself seeing the line a lot of the time because that is what I look for anyway. But I do understand one thing and that is Reference Points. That is a natural part of the game. Reference points for banking on the table so why not Reference Points for aiming. Doesnt mean you have to go through a CTE protocol. Just means you have something you start with before you put it all together. If that thing you look for first gets you locked you can apply the feel. I guess in a way thats sort of a system but we have determined you dont like that word and honestly lets just not call it that. Lets call it a method which is what that sort of thing would be. Im with you it seems like a lot of talk about systemsl. I ran across a reference point in my game a while back and its made me play a lot better so its my little system. In fact I think it would help a lot of people with their natural aim. Im sure you could give me the 6 but Im inquisitive enough to find something that works and this does for me and I am definitely not in love with aiming systems at all but Im not going to knock these guys who are. Im proud they are paying for pool time when places are closing up. Especially after I found something thats helped me a lot so I cant say squat to them about CTE. Sure Im not into it but hey someone has to be.:thumbup:

Anyone played target pool its awesome!!

aimisthegameinpool@yahoo.com

336robin
 
I hear what you are saying, but you just can't get away from that attitude with beginners. You would be amazed at how many people that barely know which end of the stick to use will take a one hour lesson, and then be upset because they still can't run a couple of racks! That's even with telling them that they have to practice a lot to get good. But, knowing the right way to practice will shorten the time it takes them to get good.

Fair enough, and exactly the way I feel. But, I have guys at the poolroom ask me how I feel about this or that method of aiming.

Want to be a millionaire, hang out around millionaires.

Want to be a great player? Well.... you know.
 
Anyone agree? I mean, find me four outta the top fifty that will swear they use the "Whatever System" and tell me about it in detail, and I'll retract the "crap" part of it.

Maybe it's worth a listen if:

1. We're not human
2. We're robotic in mannerisms.
3. You can program the mind (or central data system if we are robotic) to disregard human emotion.
4. There is no emotion, adrenaline, or ego.
5. Take away the poolroom atmosphere and distractions.


6. Oh, hell. I could go on. I'll just mention this. "IF WE'RE IN A VACUUM, AND THE PERSON PERFORMING SAID SYSTEM IS PERFECT AND UNFLAWED IN ANY WAY."

Come on guys. There is NO SHORTCUTS. Practice WHAT WORKS BEST FOR YOU. NO TWO HUMANS ARE ALIKE. Look at McCready's stroke. System? Yeah, maybe for him. But, can you emulate this? Probably not. Wish to fu#$ I could.

Guarantee you if you asked 75% or more of the great players about a "system" and they'll chuckle to themselves. They might not make someone feel uncomfortable about asking, but they are chuckling. I've heard it. Three top (and I mean top) laughing about a fella asking about this CTE stuff.

AGAIN. THERE IS NO SHORTCUT. You play constantly under pressure with what works best for you, then play great players constantly, and hang out with good players and watch, then play, practice, and play more. Absolutely no shaft, glove, taper, tip, etc. etc. will make you Johnny.

Mad at me or not over this, I'm telling you what most of the good players would tell you. Like it or not, 97% would do anything to be like the other 3%. Anything. And some could be locked in a room with Johnny for a decade and come out nowhere his speed. Some will NEVER GET IT. But, I personally don't believe in gimmicks. If this stuff works for you, great. Use it. Mentally use anything that works for you in a positive manner. But, when it's 8-8 in a race to nine for the cash, I hope you're not relying on a gimmick to get you there.

i agree with you. i've never seen anyone using a system whose game impressed me. everyone that i've ever seen play that looked like i could learn something from seemed to play by feel.

the only thing that can help people overcome their lack for natural ability is hard work and dedication. that's just one bangers opinion though
 
Hey crawfish, I agree, some people, that try to teach, make this game way to complicated. Its mostly fundamentals and then realizing the object ball and the cue ball are round, and to make hit the contact point. By the way, i also grew up in the Raleigh area, but not sure who you are. Living in Orlando now, maybe when I come to visit, we can match up. Might be tough though, if your beatin 90% of those boys, you're shootin lights out!
 
Hey crawfish, I agree, some people, that try to teach, make this game way to complicated. Its mostly fundamentals and then realizing the object ball and the cue ball are round, and to make hit the contact point. By the way, i also grew up in the Raleigh area, but not sure who you are. Living in Orlando now, maybe when I come to visit, we can match up. Might be tough though, if your beatin 90% of those boys, you're shootin lights out!

Is this Chip Dickerson? If it is, man we had some battles, didn't we? I'm playing about well, pm me. Later....
 
gotta pay your dues if you want to sing the blues....

ever wonder why poker has taken so many testosterone-headed potential pool players away from our sport? Because, comparatively, pool ain't so easy. No real physicality needed to play cards, just mental. We require plenty of both.

Neil, I agree with you. Crawfish, I agree with you, too. Your points are less at odds than one might think.

Aiming, as Neil pointed out, is but one aspect of pool. My estimate, maybe 20 - 25% of the game. It is, however, a foundation to build upon and again, as Neil illuminated for us, if you don't aim well enough to make a ball, then there is no need to consider the other approximately 75% of the game, pattern play, position, safeties, etc.

I would think that an aiming system is probably is good tool for newer players to avoid inevitable frustration and, if Neil and Lenny say they are benefitting from aiming systems, then I believe they are. But again, this is a narrow focus on the one aspect of pool.

I have never once subscribed to any aiming system, all I've learned has been by hard knocks. Maybe I should look into it though, as I sometimes miss. :grin-square:

So, Crawfish, yeah, aside from these systems offering suggestions on aiming points which may, and probably can, save some time on the learning curve, you still have to pay lots of dues by way of practice and match play. As I said, I never viewed or practiced any system play of any kind but, for instance, I can bank strong. I know how inside will tighten a route, outside, will let it open, what speed, when to finesse it, how to hit if the ob is frozen on the cushion, etc., etc. I sorted all this out over many years of practice and play. I have guys come up to me all the time and ask what banking and kicking system I use and they can't believe when I tell them it's just by feel. You cannot get around the fact that practice makes perfect. But that's not to say I might have saved time with something like "Banking with The Beard".

And I may have to stand corrected over my stating that I never became involved with any aiming system. I did order Dr. Dave's first three dvd's a month or two ago and there is the ghost-ball aiming explanation as well as how to account for squirt, swerve, etc. But is Dr. Dave's Encyclopedia a "system"? I think of it more as a magnificent compilation of pool related physics.

I know that I should preview this prior to hitting the submit button but I'm too tired to so please bear with me if my points have lost their way and spelling ran amuk, or amuck, or amuc, or whatever. :boring2::confused::boring2:

Best,
Brian kc
 
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Agree

anyone agree? I mean, find me four outta the top fifty that will swear they use the "whatever system" and tell me about it in detail, and i'll retract the "crap" part of it.

Maybe it's worth a listen if:

1. We're not human
2. We're robotic in mannerisms.
3. You can program the mind (or central data system if we are robotic) to disregard human emotion.
4. There is no emotion, adrenaline, or ego.
5. Take away the poolroom atmosphere and distractions.


6. Oh, hell. I could go on. I'll just mention this. "if we're in a vacuum, and the person performing said system is perfect and unflawed in any way."

come on guys. There is no shortcuts. Practice what works best for you. No two humans are alike. Look at mccready's stroke. System? Yeah, maybe for him. But, can you emulate this? Probably not. Wish to fu#$ i could.

Guarantee you if you asked 75% or more of the great players about a "system" and they'll chuckle to themselves. They might not make someone feel uncomfortable about asking, but they are chuckling. I've heard it. Three top (and i mean top) laughing about a fella asking about this cte stuff.

Again. There is no shortcut. You play constantly under pressure with what works best for you, then play great players constantly, and hang out with good players and watch, then play, practice, and play more. Absolutely no shaft, glove, taper, tip, etc. Etc. Will make you johnny.

Mad at me or not over this, i'm telling you what most of the good players would tell you. Like it or not, 97% would do anything to be like the other 3%. Anything. And some could be locked in a room with johnny for a decade and come out nowhere his speed. Some will never get it. But, i personally don't believe in gimmicks. If this stuff works for you, great. Use it. Mentally use anything that works for you in a positive manner. But, when it's 8-8 in a race to nine for the cash, i hope you're not relying on a gimmick to get you there.

i could not agree with you more
you can buy a $80,000 car if your a sh tty driver you will still be a shtty driver
last week mika endorsed some glove i dont know if it works or doesnt but if my stroke can become his stroke i want as many as i can get lmao
 
I love what you just said. You just made my point for me. You picked up pointers and mannerisms from all of the guys you just mentioned. Quite the plethora of people to learn from. They all use different methods. They don't all use one "system."

So, I'll cherish the things I've learned from Johnny, Coltrain, Earl, Stevie, Tony Watson, and the drunk guy who always taught me the spotshot. See? I learned and compiled my system too.

It's not a bad thing that we talk about the game. It's only bad when some neophyte reads about something that he thinks if he learns in a vacuum, he'll become the next Efren.

Yeah but the difference is that you want to say that there is no shortcut and that's not true. Anytime anyone shows you something that takes years off the learning curve it's a shortcut.

I spent years practicing kick shots Grady's way that he teaches on one of his videos. That was starting at the foot spot and kicking to every diamond without english and learning the paths, then when I had mastered that kicking to each diamond with spin. Developing my feel. Still though my kicking wasn't great. I could kick to every diamond on demand though.

Then I met Jimmy Reid and he taught me the double the distance method. Literally within MINUTES my kicking percentages shot WAY up. Not only that I could kick better but now I could kick to either side of the ball.

Last night I played a very good player who missed a kick shot by a ball. I stopped the set and taught him the double the distance method and he kicked the same ball in three times in a row. This guy plays better than me - he runs out better, pockets balls better, but I just showed him something that will take his game to an even higher level.

None of us here have ever said that every body only uses one system. It's clear to anyone who studies the game that there are so many techniques out there for everything that no one can know them all.

And when you are in the box you can't break out the slide ruler and the laser pointer to triangulate the aiming line. All that is clear.

But what you can do is try out all sorts of things and what sticks you focus on and make that part of your game. If it's an aiming system then you don't have to wear the T-shirt that says "CTE User".

Only HERE we like to talk about thing that interest us. I like to share things that work for me. Not because I want to "sell" anything but because this is a place to discuss pool in all it's aspects.

I don't get why people don't just change the channel if they don't want to talk about aiming. Just let it go. I don't want to talk about lots of subjects in pool so I just skip those threads.

It is 100% true that there are aiming SYSTEMS which work. People like Fred Agnir, Tom Simpson, Eric Hu, and many other good and decent players as well as highly intelligent people know that they work. Of course they don't work on autopilot.

I can get down in a critical set for the cheese and dog the nine even though I am dead on the aiming line. We have all done it. I saw Shannon Daulton miss a three foot shot to the corner that cost him $10,000. Everyone watching saw that he was dead on the aiming line and he just choked.

I know for myself though that without an aiming system I am going to miss more shots, especially the weird off angle mid-table shots and the close distance full table shots. With an aiming system I make more of those shots.

So no I don't think that I made your point. Your point was that feel gets you there and hitting a million balls develops the feel. My point is that hitting a million balls the wrong way with bad habits only reinforces the bad habits and increases the frustration level.

IF I had known at 17 what I know now about aiming systems AND THEN put in the hours I have no doubt that I would be shortstop speed or better right now.

I went the way of putting in the hours practicing and gambling.

I have spent many 10-20 hour sessions gambling. I have played plenty of tournaments, been on good league teams with great players. Won a few decent sized events.

I understand what it means to grind it out playing your heart out. I understand what it means to face a long tough cut up the table with $1500 riding on the shot and feeling scared to death because this is your "worst shot", the one you hate to shoot.

And now I understand what it means to walk up to the table on the same shot and literally whack it in like a hanger. Believe me when I tell you that the second feeling is WAY WAY WAY better than the first.

When you make shots like that over and over you literally make your opponents wilt from the pressure.

I was the guy who wilted before watching people whack in balls that I knew I could not make with consistency.

Now I am the guy who applies the pressure.
 
John, then let's call it what it is. "Learning the correct way for the individual." We all have picked up things over the years that come out under pressure. Whatever works. But this "system stuff" infers that some secret society of gurus know things that we need to learn. Most people have learned by years of trial and error and watching. That's their system. NO one thing will jump an imtermediate or lesser to pro status. None. That's the only point I'm making.

No one is claiming that any one thing will jump a player from amateur to pro.

You are making that inference. Lots of people have talked about the "old days" when information about how to play was not freely shared. So there was a little bit of the secret fraternity of pool hustlers. Buddy Hall wasn't running around educating everyone on how to play by telling them what he his techniques are. It's not in the best interest of the best player to educate the iggys.

However sometimes a player would show some promise and a better player would take them under their wing and show them things.

These "things" could be ways to shoot off the rail, how to use the spot on the wall system, how to figure percentages, aiming techniques, etc....

Pre-internet the only way to get at these things was if someone showed you OR if you came across it in a book or tape.

Look at how pissed off Chris Bartrum is at Joe Tucker for the "Racking Secrets" book.

Racking secrets hasn't made me into a pro player but I can tell you that it's made me money by having this knowledge.

Anyway, it's all academic. Some people will just forever be in the mindset that it's all feel and banging a million balls. Others will believe that they can build a better game by starting with some systems. That will never change and it's not any different than any other sport.
 
i could not agree with you more
you can buy a $80,000 car if your a sh tty driver you will still be a shtty driver
last week mika endorsed some glove i dont know if it works or doesnt but if my stroke can become his stroke i want as many as i can get lmao

Yeah but you will be faster. This isn't about buying equipment to buy a better game as people try to do with Predator and other shafts.

This is about using certain techniques which one can build on.

You can't say that player X who is a weak player now will still be weak if he learns an aiming system that improves his pocketing ability. That aiming system might be the catalyst that takes him to the next level and let's him focus on position play.

I can point to several players who got way better after getting good lessons. What did they learn in those lessons????? Presumably some techniques that they didn't know before.
 
Yeah but the difference is that you want to say that there is no shortcut and that's not true. Anytime anyone shows you something that takes years off the learning curve it's a shortcut.

I spent years practicing kick shots Grady's way that he teaches on one of his videos. That was starting at the foot spot and kicking to every diamond without english and learning the paths, then when I had mastered that kicking to each diamond with spin. Developing my feel. Still though my kicking wasn't great. I could kick to every diamond on demand though.

Then I met Jimmy Reid and he taught me the double the distance method. Literally within MINUTES my kicking percentages shot WAY up. Not only that I could kick better but now I could kick to either side of the ball.

Last night I played a very good player who missed a kick shot by a ball. I stopped the set and taught him the double the distance method and he kicked the same ball in three times in a row. This guy plays better than me - he runs out better, pockets balls better, but I just showed him something that will take his game to an even higher level.

None of us here have ever said that every body only uses one system. It's clear to anyone who studies the game that there are so many techniques out there for everything that no one can know them all.

And when you are in the box you can't break out the slide ruler and the laser pointer to triangulate the aiming line. All that is clear.

But what you can do is try out all sorts of things and what sticks you focus on and make that part of your game. If it's an aiming system then you don't have to wear the T-shirt that says "CTE User".

Only HERE we like to talk about thing that interest us. I like to share things that work for me. Not because I want to "sell" anything but because this is a place to discuss pool in all it's aspects.

I don't get why people don't just change the channel if they don't want to talk about aiming. Just let it go. I don't want to talk about lots of subjects in pool so I just skip those threads.

It is 100% true that there are aiming SYSTEMS which work. People like Fred Agnir, Tom Simpson, Eric Hu, and many other good and decent players as well as highly intelligent people know that they work. Of course they don't work on autopilot.

I can get down in a critical set for the cheese and dog the nine even though I am dead on the aiming line. We have all done it. I saw Shannon Daulton miss a three foot shot to the corner that cost him $10,000. Everyone watching saw that he was dead on the aiming line and he just choked.

I know for myself though that without an aiming system I am going to miss more shots, especially the weird off angle mid-table shots and the close distance full table shots. With an aiming system I make more of those shots.

So no I don't think that I made your point. Your point was that feel gets you there and hitting a million balls develops the feel. My point is that hitting a million balls the wrong way with bad habits only reinforces the bad habits and increases the frustration level.

IF I had known at 17 what I know now about aiming systems AND THEN put in the hours I have no doubt that I would be shortstop speed or better right now.

I went the way of putting in the hours practicing and gambling.

I have spent many 10-20 hour sessions gambling. I have played plenty of tournaments, been on good league teams with great players. Won a few decent sized events.

I understand what it means to grind it out playing your heart out. I understand what it means to face a long tough cut up the table with $1500 riding on the shot and feeling scared to death because this is your "worst shot", the one you hate to shoot.

And now I understand what it means to walk up to the table on the same shot and literally whack it in like a hanger. Believe me when I tell you that the second feeling is WAY WAY WAY better than the first.

When you make shots like that over and over you literally make your opponents wilt from the pressure.

I was the guy who wilted before watching people whack in balls that I knew I could not make with consistency.

Now I am the guy who applies the pressure.
Keep shooting'em in, John. Keep the heat on'em. I'm all for it. Whatever works. And, you're right. Guess I'll just have to skip some threads. Curious though? Why didn't you skip this one? I posted an opinion. Period. No great info here. I just get tired of so many people trying to sound like there is an exact science to some sort of perfection in pool, disallowing the human nature of the tests. I've seen countless videos, diagrams, etc. showing how to pocket balls. And, just like you said, "I'm the one applying the heat now." Or something to that effect. Hell, in a vacuum, and with no heat, any kind of system will work.

I agree that we pick up habits. And, we can apply these good habits in the right situation. If someone can gain even a half ball from anything, I'm all for it. Learning a proper way to pocket a ball for some is different for others. But, learning the proper way and then APPLYING it is two entirely different things.
 
... I did hear about Shane saying he uses a shaft method, not sure if it is the same one I have been working with, it has really started to click for me and my ball pocketing is better then it ever has been. To each their own, it works for me. I used to be a feel player guessing where to hit or going off experience, now I know where to hit the ball, I learned this in the past 9 months or so and it feels like I learned a secret. The biggest reason I miss now is not following through straight and also stepping into the shot wrong. It has taken me awhile to really practice it and get it right but it feels good that it has clicked. Us pool players are a strange bunch. :)

Lenny, how about starting a new thread and explaining the method you are using -- "A Stick-Aiming Method That is Working For Me." It might click with a lot of people!
 
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