APA call at cities. U be the judge

N

NJ_Qball

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Scenario.
Important match, hill hill, winner goes to Vegas.

What happened:
Player marks 8 ball pocket with a room key card, upside down, showing only magnetic strip. Sinks the 8 in the pocket, game over right? Wrong.

It was established pretourney,neither money nor chalk can be used to mark a final pocket. Opposing team complains saying a credit card was used to mark the pocket (at this time the card was removed from the table). It can not be proven, one way or another, whether or not a credit card was used.

Conversation goes 10 minutes.

So, league operator makes the call, guilty until proven innocent. Foul on the shot, game over, match to our opposing team.

Point 1, use something obviously not resembling money.
Point 2, guilty until proven innocent.
Point 3, record all games with video.

Thank you APA, I now agree with everyone else here. APA needs to change, get more people to step up and be COMPETENT referees that WANT to be there, at a minimum. Until then, there is one less person donating to the league for them to choose who represents them in Vegas.
 
You can make a good argument here that a credit card is not "money". Can you use a picture of a chalk to mark the pocket? That's pretty much what a credit card be to real money. It represents it, but is not the item.

APA is a bar league, played mostly by bar players who refuse logic and "real" rules used by the pros. I am proud to say I have never had the begginging of a possibilty of a thought to join it.
 
The shooter won, but the APA is retarded.

This is the standard stupid bs I watched all weekend. From pocket markers to clothes people were wearing. Fact is, if you need to complain about a pocket marker to win, you really are a loser.

Given the mentality of most of the players you have to have more rules, I understand that. However, you are giving these morons more to remember and allowing them to interpret things however they see fit.

Our league gave us all an APA chip to use as pocket markers. My arguement is that it is also money as it can be used a one cent poker chip.
 
Also, you should not be able to use a lighter for a marker as it is a weapon. Ask the TSA if you have any doubt.
 
NJ_Qball said:
Scenario.
Important match, hill hill, winner goes to Vegas.

What happened:
Player marks 8 ball pocket with a room key card, upside down, showing only magnetic strip. Sinks the 8 in the pocket, game over right? Wrong.

It was established pretourney,neither money nor chalk can be used to mark a final pocket. Opposing team complains saying a credit card was used to mark the pocket (at this time the card was removed from the table). It can not be proven, one way or another, whether or not a credit card was used.

Conversation goes 10 minutes.

So, league operator makes the call, guilty until proven innocent. Foul on the shot, game over, match to our opposing team.

Point 1, use something obviously not resembling money.
Point 2, guilty until proven innocent.
Point 3, record all games with video.

Thank you APA, I now agree with everyone else here. APA needs to change, get more people to step up and be COMPETENT referees that WANT to be there, at a minimum. Until then, there is one less person donating to the league for them to choose who represents them in Vegas.
Click to expand...

Wrong call in my opinion. No where in the APA Team Manual does it state that "money" (or a credit card) could not be used to mark the pocket. If the pocket was marked and the player made the ball in the marked pocket the shot should count. Shame on the opposing team for trying to take the game away. Now on the other hand if the tournament rule clearly stated these items were not allowed then shame on the player for not marking the pocket according to the tournament rule. What about the other games the player won in that match (and during the tournament) what did they use to the mark the pocket in those instances? Was it the same card? If so why wasn't that a foul?
 
That whole thing stinks out loud. It really does.

That having been said, if you know the rules going into the tournament, why allow anything to chance? The marker rules are what they are. Something like that has been the case for a while now, as I understand it. (Whether "money" can be used or not, that's goofy.)

Just have a marker available that won't be questioned. Why allow yourself to be caught up in silly rules? Silly rules for silly people. Let the silly people worry about that crap, use something else.

Control what you can control. This is one of those things.

It still sucks for the OP, though. Sheesh.
 
NJ_Qball said:
Scenario.
Important match, hill hill, winner goes to Vegas.

What happened:
Player marks 8 ball pocket with a room key card, upside down, showing only magnetic strip. Sinks the 8 in the pocket, game over right? Wrong.

It was established pretourney,neither money nor chalk can be used to mark a final pocket. Opposing team complains saying a credit card was used to mark the pocket (at this time the card was removed from the table). It can not be proven, one way or another, whether or not a credit card was used.

Conversation goes 10 minutes.

So, league operator makes the call, guilty until proven innocent. Foul on the shot, game over, match to our opposing team.

Point 1, use something obviously not resembling money.
Point 2, guilty until proven innocent.
Point 3, record all games with video.

Thank you APA, I now agree with everyone else here. APA needs to change, get more people to step up and be COMPETENT referees that WANT to be there, at a minimum. Until then, there is one less person donating to the league for them to choose who represents them in Vegas.
Click to expand...

Opposing team is a bunch of scumbags...
To even make that call is lower than whale sh!t in my book. Take the loss gracefully and move on.
 
NewStroke said:
The shooter won, but the APA is retarded.

This is the standard stupid bs I watched all weekend. From pocket markers to clothes people were wearing. Fact is, if you need to complain about a pocket marker to win, you really are a loser.

Given the mentality of most of the players you have to have more rules, I understand that. However, you are giving these morons more to remember and allowing them to interpret things however they see fit.

Our league gave us all an APA chip to use as pocket markers. My arguement is that it is also money as it can be used a one cent poker chip.
Click to expand...

There has got to be more to this story. I had a situation a few years ago where a player marked the pocket with is sunglasses but moved them a couple diamonds away so they weren't in his line of sight. The captain moved them closer and the guy shot the ball in the intended pocket and won the match. Of course the losing team tried to take away the game (unsuccessfully). All I can say if if this really happened then the losing team should file an official protest along with the $50 fee....assuming this really happened as described.
 
APA Gene said:
Wrong call in my opinion. No where in the APA Team Manual does it state that "money" (or a credit card) could not be used to mark the pocket. If the pocket was marked and the player made the ball in the marked pocket the shot should count. Shame on the opposing team for trying to take the game away. Now on the other hand if the tournament rule clearly stated these items were not allowed then shame on the player for not marking the pocket according to the tournament rule. What about the other games the player won in that match (and during the tournament) what did they use to the mark the pocket in those instances? Was it the same card? If so why wasn't that a foul?
Click to expand...

Gene, while the manual doesn't state this, I've noticed that many league's bylaws include that little tidbit.
 
I really hate this bs

I know how leagers are. I am currently playing in the APA finals now. I get sooo tired of this crap!

I know there are rules and bylaws, etc. But this is still ridiculous!

I also think that the "spirit of the rules" should apply in a case like this. Take a second, think about and try to understand what actual purpose the rule serves and it should give you a very good idea of how it should be applied.

In this example the rule about marking pockets is designed to take away confusion on which pocket is the shooters intended pocket. That is the purpose of marking a pocket. The "spirit of the rules" in this case is so you can't win by making the 8 in the wrong pocket and try to claim otherwise.

Using the card served its purpose of meeting the intended purpose for the rule. I do understand why chalk should not be used as there may be multiple pieces of chalk at various spots at any given moment.


As someone else already asked- what was used to mark the pocket during previous games? If your player used the same card throughout the match and the other team recorded those as wins then I think you should win a dispute on this one. The precedent was already set and accepted.

Just like equipment. You cannot make a complaint about the equipment being non regulation in the last game or after the match. Once the match has begun, It is assumed that the equipment is accepted by both players. Unless BOTH players agree to switch tables, etc.


Also, without actual proof of what card was used, when the room card was presented as what was used, it should have been over with. In just about every instance without a referee, the call goes to the shooter!

And we all know what money is-- CASH! Even if it was a credit card it did not violate the rule. Unless it specifically lists credit cards.

This is wrong on many levels!!


Seriously- open a dispute! I think you have a VERY good case.

It would be very gratifying to pull that UNEARNED victory back from those low lifes. Do IT!


I always say that I want to win on the table NOT out of a rulebook!


Jw
 
I agree!!!!

poolpro said:
I know how leagers are. I am currently playing in the APA finals now. I get sooo tired of this crap!

I know there are rules and bylaws, etc. But this is still ridiculous!

I also think that the "spirit of the rules" should apply in a case like this. Take a second, think about and try to understand what actual purpose the rule serves and it should give you a very good idea of how it should be applied.

In this example the rule about marking pockets is designed to take away confusion on which pocket is the shooters intended pocket. That is the purpose of marking a pocket. The "spirit of the rules" in this case is so you can't win by making the 8 in the wrong pocket and try to claim otherwise.

Using the card served its purpose of meeting the intended purpose for the rule. I do understand why chalk should not be used as there may be multiple pieces of chalk at various spots at any given moment.


As someone else already asked- what was used to mark the pocket during previous games? If your player used the same card throughout the match and the other team recorded those as wins then I think you should win a dispute on this one. The precedent was already set and accepted.

Just like equipment. You cannot make a complaint about the equipment being non regulation in the last game or after the match. Once the match has begun, It is assumed that the equipment is accepted by both players. Unless BOTH players agree to switch tables, etc.


Also, without actual proof of what card was used, when the room card was presented as what was used, it should have been over with. In just about every instance without a referee, the call goes to the shooter!

And we all know what money is-- CASH! Even if it was a credit card it did not violate the rule. Unless it specifically lists credit cards.

This is wrong on many levels!!


Seriously- open a dispute! I think you have a VERY good case.

It would be very gratifying to pull that UNEARNED victory back from those low lifes. Do IT!


I always say that I want to win on the table NOT out of a rulebook!


Jw
Click to expand...

Open a dispute. Since they allowed the card as a marker in previous games, then it is good throughout the match. Call your LO, and file the complaint NOW!!!! Sad to see a team that uses rules against the main purpose of the league to enjoy pool. They do not deserve to go to Vegas, and your team does. Open a dispute ASAP, and get all your facts together regarding the tourney rules on pocket markers. Nationals gives coins each year as pocket markers, so this seems very fishy. The ref know the opposing team, or is the team an LO favorite?

Do it now, and do it quickly before you lose time!!!


Good luck.
Michael
 
Anyone with half a brain involved with the APA should have re-wrote the rules many, many years ago.

So whats that tell you ?
 
APA is all about stupid rules, and not truly about the sport. You have people "sandbagging", throwing games, making up non-sense rules, and all in order to maintain a stupid rating/handicap so the "team" doesn't go over on points. I'm sorry, but since when is pool a "team sport"??? It's not! Do you think some of the great legends (past and present) would want to be associated with something of this sort? I seriously doubt it. Anyway, it's no suprise to me that something like this happened. What else could you expect from an "APA League"
 
Im kind of surprised that the apa doesnt have an official pocket marker that they sell for like $25. The other team must be some real dirt bags
 
veni_vidi_vici said:
APA is all about stupid rules, and not truly about the sport. You have people "sandbagging", throwing games, making up non-sense rules, and all in order to maintain a stupid rating/handicap so the "team" doesn't go over on points. I'm sorry, but since when is pool a "team sport"??? It's not! Do you think some of the great legends (past and present) would want to be associated with something of this sort? I seriously doubt it. Anyway, it's no suprise to me that something like this happened. What else could you expect from an "APA League"
Click to expand...

I played APA a while, I got tired of the BS, the sandbagging & the little dance when staging players.

BCAPL is my choice of Pool Leagues.

Handicapping can become a real challenger, so that a real 3 speed has a chance at competing with a real 9 speed. I'm not sure there is a way of balancing out skill levels that are far apart.
 
They kinda do

jamesroberts said:
Im kind of surprised that the apa doesnt have an official pocket marker that they sell for like $25. The other team must be some real dirt bags
Click to expand...

They give every team that goes to Vegas Nationals a goody bag, and in my bags in previous years, they supplied a coin with APA designs for that year. Could easily be seen as a symbol of money. So did every team that used it in Vegas that last 10 years lose games where they used it as a marker?

Gotta love the double standard.

But here in this situation the blame is on the team that called the foul as sore losers, and the APA League Operator who followed by backing the call.

Javier - I believe you have a very good dispute to file. Might even discuss it with a Lawyer - due to the amount of money involved with the trip to Vegas, and monies you have invested over the year to get to this point. This has got to be one of the worst calls I have ever heard about in APA.

We are playing our APA Regionals this weekend, so I guess I should make sure all my team's pocket markers are legal.

I might come prepared - Is a DILDO legal to mark a pocket?

Michael
 
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