English vs. english vs. side spin
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
I just voted for side spin. It sounds like better English to me. 
Roger
Roger
Splitting hairs
I'm not the best at rules of English but I think "english" lower case is mo'better than "English" upper case because we are referring to spin, a common noun or verb according to usage, not "English" a proper noun. A six foot three inch penguin taught me proper English in the fifth grade, using a ruler and those big hands that were bigger than most paddles I have seen. I've forgotten a lot since then but it doesn't really matter, I don't like either word.
Depending on who I am talking to I either say I'm putting a little high, low, or spin on the ball or I specify where I am hitting it without saying spin or english. It's cumbersome enough to say high right without adding spin or english. Then when you have to define it closer, a tip and a half high, a half tip right, it is even more cumbersome.
We really need to go to the clock system and if we went to the clock system and Joe Villalpando's "gears" to describe how far from center we are hitting the cue ball we would communicate very well. 10-3 or 10 o'clock third gear tells exactly where we are hitting the cue ball. Unfortunately getting everybody on one page with pool terminology isn't going to happen. Tips of english or side is vague at best but it's the most common way of describing it and probably what we are stuck with for many years to come.
Hu
I'm not the best at rules of English but I think "english" lower case is mo'better than "English" upper case because we are referring to spin, a common noun or verb according to usage, not "English" a proper noun. A six foot three inch penguin taught me proper English in the fifth grade, using a ruler and those big hands that were bigger than most paddles I have seen. I've forgotten a lot since then but it doesn't really matter, I don't like either word.
Depending on who I am talking to I either say I'm putting a little high, low, or spin on the ball or I specify where I am hitting it without saying spin or english. It's cumbersome enough to say high right without adding spin or english. Then when you have to define it closer, a tip and a half high, a half tip right, it is even more cumbersome.
We really need to go to the clock system and if we went to the clock system and Joe Villalpando's "gears" to describe how far from center we are hitting the cue ball we would communicate very well. 10-3 or 10 o'clock third gear tells exactly where we are hitting the cue ball. Unfortunately getting everybody on one page with pool terminology isn't going to happen. Tips of english or side is vague at best but it's the most common way of describing it and probably what we are stuck with for many years to come.
Hu
I don't use the term english either, when talking about cueball hits. I usually talk in terms of left, right, bottom and top. Probably comes from my difficult time during my 5th grade English class as well.
In the course of explaining to some one what I was hoping to accomplish, I think i have used all three and many more.
Did I just step through a time portal into last week? Didn't we just go through an unbelieveably agonizing debate on what direction to call the rotation of a cue ball?
Why does it have to be called anything? Why am I siting here alone in this room, asking myself these questions? :smile:
Why does it have to be called anything? Why am I siting here alone in this room, asking myself these questions? :smile:
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PHOENIX — Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed the nation’s toughest bill on Pool Terminology into law on Friday. Its aim is to identify, prosecute and ban people using incorrect terms.
Pool players and advocates for the English vs. Side terminology marched outside the Kolby's Corner Pocket in Phoenix.
Gov. Jan Brewer signed the bill, SE 1070, on Friday.
The move unleashed immediate protests and reignited the divisive battle over English vs. Side reform nationally.
Even before she signed the bill at an afternoon news conference here, President Obama strongly criticized it.
Speaking at a weekly pool tournament for 24 Pool Players in the Rose Garden Pub & Sports Bar, he called for a federal overhaul of terminology laws, which Congressional leaders signaled they were preparing to take up soon, to avoid “irresponsibility by others.”
The Arizona law, he added, threatened “to undermine basic notions of terminology that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between pool players and our communities that is so crucial to keeping us from not being confused.”
The law, which proponents and critics alike said was the broadest and strictest terminology measure in generations, would make the failure to use the correct termonolgy a crime and give the moderators broad power to ban anyone suspected of such incorrect usage. Opponents have called it an open invitation for harassment and discrimination against Forum Posters regardless of their APA status.
The political debate leading up to Ms. Brewer’s decision, and Mr. Obama’s criticism of the law — presidents very rarely weigh in on state legislation — underscored the power of the terminology debate in online forums such as AzBilliards. It presaged the polarizing arguments that await the president and Congress as they take up the issue nationally.
Mr. Wilson (Moderator on AzBilliards) said in a statement that he was worried about the rights of its posters and relations with posters on the wrong side of the debate. Jay Helfert of Los Angeles said Mr. Wilsons ability to ban members was like “Nazism.”
As hundreds of demonstrators massed, mostly peacefully in the Ask the Instructor section, the governor, posting from a state building a few miles away, said the law “represents another tool for our state to use as we work to solve a crisis we did not create and the federal government has refused to fix.”
The law was to take effect 90 days after the legislative session ends, meaning by August. Forum post challenges were expected immediately.
Pool players and advocates for the English vs. Side terminology marched outside the Kolby's Corner Pocket in Phoenix.
Gov. Jan Brewer signed the bill, SE 1070, on Friday.
The move unleashed immediate protests and reignited the divisive battle over English vs. Side reform nationally.
Even before she signed the bill at an afternoon news conference here, President Obama strongly criticized it.
Speaking at a weekly pool tournament for 24 Pool Players in the Rose Garden Pub & Sports Bar, he called for a federal overhaul of terminology laws, which Congressional leaders signaled they were preparing to take up soon, to avoid “irresponsibility by others.”
The Arizona law, he added, threatened “to undermine basic notions of terminology that we cherish as Americans, as well as the trust between pool players and our communities that is so crucial to keeping us from not being confused.”
The law, which proponents and critics alike said was the broadest and strictest terminology measure in generations, would make the failure to use the correct termonolgy a crime and give the moderators broad power to ban anyone suspected of such incorrect usage. Opponents have called it an open invitation for harassment and discrimination against Forum Posters regardless of their APA status.
The political debate leading up to Ms. Brewer’s decision, and Mr. Obama’s criticism of the law — presidents very rarely weigh in on state legislation — underscored the power of the terminology debate in online forums such as AzBilliards. It presaged the polarizing arguments that await the president and Congress as they take up the issue nationally.
Mr. Wilson (Moderator on AzBilliards) said in a statement that he was worried about the rights of its posters and relations with posters on the wrong side of the debate. Jay Helfert of Los Angeles said Mr. Wilsons ability to ban members was like “Nazism.”
As hundreds of demonstrators massed, mostly peacefully in the Ask the Instructor section, the governor, posting from a state building a few miles away, said the law “represents another tool for our state to use as we work to solve a crisis we did not create and the federal government has refused to fix.”
The law was to take effect 90 days after the legislative session ends, meaning by August. Forum post challenges were expected immediately.
From the point of view of the person doing the stroking on the CB, CW spin would be a big massé on the right side of the CB...
From the point of view above the table, CW is right spin, CCW is left spin.
So it depends on your point of view.
From the point of view above the table, CW is right spin, CCW is left spin.
So it depends on your point of view.
Personally, I've always had a hard time with this decision (e.g., for use in my book and videos). My very large Meriam-Webster Third Edition dictionary suggests "English" (capitalized) as the "usual" form; although, this implies that "english" (lower case) is also acceptable. "English" (capitalized) is certainly the most common form used in most books, and this is the form I have always used. However, "english" does seem more grammatically correct, even though most spell-checking software doesn't like it (i.e., it gets flagged as a spelling mistake). I like the use of "side spin" or just "spin" instead (e.g., right spin, top-right spin, topspin, bottom spin, outside spin, running spin, 2 o'clock spin, etc.). I would like to change to this paradigm (e.g., in all future books, articles, videos), but I still like the common usage and heritage of "English."
Regards,
Dave
PS: Remember, don't put too much "American" on the ball (i.e., don't hit it harder than you need to). Also, don't use too much "English."
SPinglish / Engrish
I prefer "stuff or smack".
"I smacked 'er on 'er backside and she went a running round the table"
I prefer "stuff or smack".
"I smacked 'er on 'er backside and she went a running round the table"
The recent debate concerned whether or not "English" should refer just to side spin. This thread is exploring a different question; although, it was certainly inspired by the earlier thread.
Regards,
Dave
My proper grammar is no doubt a bit rusty, but I believe that lower-case english is correct. We speak English, a noun, yet we apply english, an action or verb.
Or in my case, we overcut and drive the ball into the rail.
(Re-reading this, I am convinced that I am the last person who should be commenting on grammar.
)
Or in my case, we overcut and drive the ball into the rail.
(Re-reading this, I am convinced that I am the last person who should be commenting on grammar.
)
... but the Meriam-Webster Third Edition dictionary suggests "English" (capitalized) as the "usual" form. This implies that "english" (lower case) might also be acceptable, but it is flagged as a spelling mistake in most software (e.g., Microsoft Word).
When in doubt, I stick with Meriam-Webster and common usage (i.e., what is usually found in printed publications), so I will continue to use "English," even though it goes slightly against my sense for grammar.
Regards,
Dave
:rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1::rotflmao1:
I recall that when the French had the foresight to not believe in "weapons of mass destruction," there was a great deal of public sentiment to remove the name of their country from our lexicon (e.g. banning of the term french fries), and it was fashionable to be anti-franco..
Perhaps, in the spirit of equal treatment for all, and in light of the present situation in the Gulf of Mexico, the term "English" should be excluded from the pool vernacular, and reserved for situations when someone really f**ks up. For example a miscue could bring the response "Nice English!" or someone who is really a PITA could be described as "that guy is really English".
Hmmmm, in the southwest, particularly close to the Mexico border, we refer to it as "spanglish".
common usage
Dave,
It often does come down to common usage. I use and abuse American English as it is most commonly used most of the time. It's much like some of the words or brand names that are commonly mispronounced, unless I am talking to someone that I know knows how to pronounce it correctly I'll use the common pronunciation rather than the proper one. "Moochie" cues are an exception. I owned one back in the early eighties and pronounce it Moochie to other owners just to needle them!
When I wrote or edited technical documents going to people like the US Army, the NRC, or NASA my spelling and grammar were a little better.
Hu
Dave,
It often does come down to common usage. I use and abuse American English as it is most commonly used most of the time. It's much like some of the words or brand names that are commonly mispronounced, unless I am talking to someone that I know knows how to pronounce it correctly I'll use the common pronunciation rather than the proper one. "Moochie" cues are an exception. I owned one back in the early eighties and pronounce it Moochie to other owners just to needle them!
When I wrote or edited technical documents going to people like the US Army, the NRC, or NASA my spelling and grammar were a little better.
Hu