Opinions on pros wrecking local tourneys

[$TAKE HOR$E]

What do you think about guys who are pros or are good enough to play pro tourneys hitting local tourneys during the week? This will kill a local tourney in a hurry. Do you think the owner should just say look man I'm trying to run a business and you are killing it? Should the player know he's to good to play with this crowd for chump change, compared to what he could could probably make gambling elsewhere?

This is a very good question. Around here there is no poolroom and one bar has 6 tables with a weekly tournament but this scenario would most likely never take place with a pro player in this area. A few years ago before the poolroom here closed they did have some good weekly tournament's on bar tables and 9 footers and even though there were a couple real strong players the room owner made it more fair by handicapping the tournament. No one seemed to mind and it did well for a while. I never understood why people would not want to play in a tournament that has some really good players in it because how often do most weak players get to play someone like that. Most weekly tournaments do not cost very much and even though everyone wants to win most people do not count on them as their only means of making any money.

 

[mikeyfrost]

Wah wah wah ! If I can't win this tournament then I'm going to take my toys and go home! Wah Wah Wah!

I'm not crying I don't personally care who shows up to play if I want to play. I've been in the box with stone champions too so it's not that at all.

For me it's that I see the flip side of things. I see when peoples moral gets low and they lose interest in the game. It happens more than people think it does. People just don't like to donate. All these arguments for getting better to be competitive are null and void because most people have jobs. Pretty much anyone with any decent money has jobs. Most of the time the people who actually support the pool room and buy drinks and food have jobs.

Let me digress for a moment though. I feel like all the popcorn and tap water dudes that raid the tourneys can get f*cked! I get more annoyed with the non table time paying, one soda a night, win $200 and don't leave a tip bum ass pool playing people. Sorry but they really burn me up and in general a lot of the top players adopt this mentality because if youre spending money you aint saving it.

I would never have this problem. I would do a 3 drink minimum with my tourneys or take the bite on your entry fee. Then free loading pros or other tourney wreckers gotta pay a toll for hurting my business.

 

[Neil]

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[Cameron Smith]

Wouldn't it be nice to play in a weekly tourny with these guys.

I've found the better the competition the better the players get around them. Unless it's a handicap tourny the poorer player is the real loser if the better players are told to go fishing.

It's an excellent opportunity for the players to learn if nothing else but monkey see, monkey do. it actually works.

Most local tournys are race to 1 or 2. Double elim.

Agreed. Even if they don't put their best effort into it, you'll still probably pick up something.

Whenever I see these threads I get an image of a Tennis forum with a thread title "Aw Man, I have to play Andy Roddick every week!"

 

[SpiderWebComm]

If i get to shoot with a pro for a 10-15$ tourney entry fee, I consider that fantastic. Money well spent.

Most cheapy tourneys are short races, (races to 3 or 4), I feel that I could beat anyone, every now and then, in that short of a race.

What this guy said. If I could play in a tournament with Efren, Earl, Shane, Dennis, Rodney, Allen and whoever else for $20.... who would complain? That's the best chance to see where you stand for $20!!

I guess one would have to think of playing someone as gifted as the above players as fun. Would you pay $20 to play with Tiger Woods? Everyone would. So why would playing in a $20 pool tournament any different?

Eventually, when you hit a certain level... it IS possible to have a great time and still lose (as long as you're learning). Beating a bunch of nobodies for $20 is boring and not fun. Would rather play somebodies, lose and LEARN.

 

[JoeyA]

Tournaments have been a part of my pool life for the past 30 years. I remember playing in bar table tournaments (I mean real bars) and never won. I did attract some of the gamblers, since I always had a good job.

About twenty years ago I decided that I wanted to see if I could still improve my game and I started hanging out at the famous Sports Palace.
I played in their tournaments FOR YEARS and never got a sniff at the cash.

I played in the local tournaments around town and never got a sniff at the cash.

Finally about ten or 15 years ago, I won a trophy tournament at Chris' Pool Hall In New Orleans and I kept the damn thing for years. I started getting a little better and started winning in some of the local tournaments. I still couldn't beat any of the local top players and never would I spank a visiting pro. About ten years ago I started playing in the larger tournaments, regional and national and for the most part I just got spanked, over and over and over.

I didn't play in these tournaments because I am a masochist. I played in them because I wanted to better my game and playing in tournaments IS ONE OF THE CHEAPEST WAYS TO DO THAT.

I don't want to call anyone a nit for not wanting to compete against a better player but I will tell you this. I would never have developed my mediocre game if it hadn't been for playing in all of those tournaments.

After a few years of going to the national tournaments, the local bangers were looking at me and wondering how in the hell did I improve my game.

Besides the many pool lessons I have taken and the enormous numbers of hours I practiced, tournaments have been my most important part of my development as they taught me humility and how to be competitive, really competitive.

Owners of establishments need totell their customers that playing better players and ESPECIALLY professional players is an HONOR and an opportunity that won't cost them much money and IT WILL IMPROVE THEIR GAME.

That being said, there are a few who feed off of the tournaments and don't want another hog getting to eat out of the trough of mediocrity.

They set the tone and brain wash the rest of the locals into thinking that the visiting pro is someone who is taking food off of their plate.

Watching a pro play up close and personal CAN DO WONDERS FOR YOUR GAME.

Professional players need to visit every now and then. Scotty Townsend reminds me of the perfect visiting pro player. He spends money, socializes with the bangers and players alike. He wins, he leaves some of the money and everybody loves him.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

I don't know how this thread has been going only looked at the first post. At what point do you stop telling people that are too good they can't play? Take a video of the pro, play it on the TV at the pool room and reduce rates for everyone to play and get better. If they don't want to practice, tell them to play at a bar for beer and beat up on the drunks cause this is a tournament to see who the best player is.

 

[DunnM1]

I got an idea, instead of worrying about the pro's. PLAY BETTER!

 

[cuesmith]

I'm not crying I don't personally care who shows up to play if I want to play. I've been in the box with stone champions too so it's not that at all.

For me it's that I see the flip side of things. I see when peoples moral gets low and they lose interest in the game. It happens more than people think it does. People just don't like to donate. All these arguments for getting better to be competitive are null and void because most people have jobs. Pretty much anyone with any decent money has jobs. Most of the time the people who actually support the pool room and buy drinks and food have jobs.

Let me digress for a moment though. I feel like all the popcorn and tap water dudes that raid the tourneys can get f*cked! I get more annoyed with the non table time paying, one soda a night, win $200 and don't leave a tip bum ass pool playing people. Sorry but they really burn me up and in general a lot of the top players adopt this mentality because if youre spending money you aint saving it.

I would never have this problem. I would do a 3 drink minimum with my tourneys or take the bite on your entry fee. Then free loading pros or other tourney wreckers gotta pay a toll for hurting my business.

I guess I'm glad I'm not from "Tiananmen Square, IA" or wherever you hang? You paint a bleak picture of the class of people there if they act like you're saying. While I'm not saying there aren't people like that everywhere, I've found them to be the vast minority. Most of the players I know are very approachable, willing to give advise if you ask really don't have to win every tournament if you set it up right. I'm speaking from experience now, I've owned 2 bars and 2 poolrooms and have ran hundreds of these small local tournaments over the years, very successful ones I might add! The key is to keep the races short, but dbl elimination and have a jackpot at the end of the tourney, that the winners are not elligible for. On Monday I had 9 ball tourneys race to 1, DBL elim. On Tuesday I had "Cincinnati Partners" ( We draw for partners and alternate each shot, not inning) which was very popular too. The jackpot went as follows: Our entry we kept low at $5 per man + $2 for the jackpot pool and I, the house, added $20 each Mon & Tues for the jackpot pool. There were 2 names drawn to try to break, make a ball and continue to run the rack of 9-ball. You had to play in 4 out of the last 8 tournaments to be eligible for the entire jackpot, if you didn't have the weeks in and won you received half of the amount. When the jackpot grew to $1000, we topped the prize out and let the additional money go into a second jackpot fund so if it was hit, the tournament wouldn't die off, there would still be a good sum to shoot for. The jackpot got up to a total of about $3500 which all but guaranteed the long term success of the tourney. We were getting 30-60 players every Monday and Tuesday night for over 4 years and we welcomed anyone and everyone! Gary won a lot of them but a race to 1 takes a lot of his advantage away. On Tuesday people hope to draw Gary, Joey, Billy & Ricky Carrelli, Joe Brown, Rick Garrison, Jason Miller, Johnny McGrueder, sometimes Howard Vickery, Troy Frank, Dee Adkins, John Brumback and a lot more. Monday and Tuesday nights doubled the receipts of my Friday and Saturday nights in business and on Mon & Tues I had a lot of the tables tied up for the tournament for a while, but as the field dwindled, people would rent the open table and match up. They wanted to stay til the Jackpot drawing and so they played pool, bought snacks & drinks and played games at least until the drawing for the jackpot at the end of the tourney. And as I mentioned, if you cansed in the tourney you weren't elligible for the jackpot drawing. That was another thing that made it work! This is the formula to make a succesful local tournament without baring anyone!

 

[Celtic]

But you are talking about a one-time thing...the 'wrecking' happens when one person wins over and over again.

How would you feel if a year went by and the same guy won the weekly event 30+ times? Still feel it is 'worth it'?

If Phil Mikkelson want to play me a buck a hole skins once a week for the rest of my life I am most definately in. If I get out only losing $16 one week I will have done something special, I will lose thousands of dollars doing it over my lifetime, and yes, it would be worth every penny.

I have been in the situation the OP speaks of. Playing Tyler Edey, Edwin Montal, PJ Masicotte, Bernie Mikkelson back in the day, ect... I loved it and it is the main reason I got to the level I am at today and the most fun experience I have is the chances at knocking those guys off. if one single guy keeps winning over and over again then it is the fault of the rest of the field IMO for making it so easy on him. Learn to play~

 

[mikeyfrost]

I guess I'm glad I'm not from "Tiananmen Square, IA" or wherever you hang? You paint a bleak picture of the class of people there if they act like you're saying. While I'm not saying there aren't people like that everywhere, I've found them to be the vast minority. Most of the players I know are very approachable, willing to give advise if you ask really don't have to win every tournament if you set it up right. I'm speaking from experience now, I've owned 2 bars and 2 poolrooms and have ran hundreds of these small local tournaments over the years, very successful ones I might add! The key is to keep the races short, but dbl elimination and have a jackpot at the end of the tourney, that the winners are not elligible for. On Monday I had 9 ball tourneys race to 1, DBL elim. On Tuesday I had "Cincinnati Partners" ( We draw for partners and alternate each shot, not inning) which was very popular too. The jackpot went as follows: Our entry we kept low at $5 per man + $2 for the jackpot pool and I, the house, added $20 each Mon & Tues for the jackpot pool. There were 2 names drawn to try to break, make a ball and continue to run the rack of 9-ball. You had to play in 4 out of the last 8 tournaments to be eligible for the entire jackpot, if you didn't have the weeks in and won you received half of the amount. When the jackpot grew to $1000, we topped the prize out and let the additional money go into a second jackpot fund so if it was hit, the tournament wouldn't die off, there would still be a good sum to shoot for. The jackpot got up to a total of about $3500 which all but guaranteed the long term success of the tourney. We were getting 30-60 players every Monday and Tuesday night for over 4 years and we welcomed anyone and everyone! Gary won a lot of them but a race to 1 takes a lot of his advantage away. On Tuesday people hope to draw Gary, Joey, Billy & Ricky Carrelli, Joe Brown, Rick Garrison, Jason Miller, Johnny McGrueder, sometimes Howard Vickery, Troy Frank, Dee Adkins, John Brumback and a lot more. Monday and Tuesday nights doubled the receipts of my Friday and Saturday nights in business and on Mon & Tues I had a lot of the tables tied up for the tournament for a while, but as the field dwindled, people would rent the open table and match up. They wanted to stay til the Jackpot drawing and so they played pool, bought snacks & drinks and played games at least until the drawing for the jackpot at the end of the tourney. And as I mentioned, if you cansed in the tourney you weren't elligible for the jackpot drawing. That was another thing that made it work! This is the formula to make a succesful local tournament without baring anyone!

Thats quite a bit different. You make that tourney such a crapshoot that anyone can win and of course you keep your action. I couldnt possibly see someone winning that type of tourney 70% of the time or more just based on losing the flip sometimes. Where I am the races are much longer. Nice format.

All I'm saying is most featherweights don't want Tyson breaking their jaw each and every week for 5 or 10 years until they get strong enough to fight back. Not everyone gets to drink Manny Pacquio's blood and watch their muscles grow! Also a B&C player tournament eliminates this problem too, its like a study session and the Open tourneys can be the tests.

I'm over the topic though. I'm new enough and know enough lower skilled to average players to be able to empathize with them still. I realized not everyone is striving to be the best player since Harold W.

With all due respect you guys keep bringing up golf, next time you play a tourney make sure you sign up as scratch until you get better okay, nope didnt think so again!

 

[Vinnie]

Honestly, what kind of "lesson" are you going to learn in 1 to 3 racks of pool, especially when you are the opponent sitting in the chair the whole match. I would be too upset to learn anything. Nothing sucks like losing a match you never shot in. Just sayin.

 

[justadub]

Honestly, what kind of "lesson" are you going to learn in 1 to 3 racks of pool, especially when you are the opponent sitting in the chair the whole match. I would be too upset to learn anything. Nothing sucks like losing a match you never shot in. Just sayin.

This statement has some merit. I just got smoked by the best player in our local tournament this week, I think I got 5 shots in , 4 of them defensive kick shots. It didn't bother me at the time, cuz I already won my first match, and was headed into another round, cool enough for a small tourney and my poor skill level. My opponent is a casual friend from leagues, and apologized during the match for kicking my ass. I immediately told him no problem, it was cool watching him run all those balls, and when he missed, leaving me zilch. But if this were a regular occurance, I could definetely see my enthusiasm drop off for this tournament, even at a lowly $5. I do want to at least hit a ball or two, to pretend that I was involved in the match, at least somewhat. Fortunately for us, there are only a couple of really good players that drop by this tournament, so unless you draw them first it ain't no big deal to us "bangers". It is fun to see the good players do their thing. But I would like to at least have a shot at a ball for my $5. At least once or twice, is that too much to ask?

 

[cardiac kid]

Honestly, what kind of "lesson" are you going to learn in 1 to 3 racks of pool, especially when you are the opponent sitting in the chair the whole match. I would be too upset to learn anything. Nothing sucks like losing a match you never shot in. Just sayin.

Vinnie,

Heres another take on your question. For years I struggled with a certain force follow shot. Nearly always missed the shot but got position. Drew Busti at a Joss event. He won the match but the same shot came up. He played it as a draw shot instead of force follow. Drew the cue ball two rails. To this day, that's how I now play it. We're talking one shot that changed part of my game. Not a race to one, two or three games or whatever. I paid attention. Perhaps some complainers should do the same!

Lyn

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Honestly, what kind of "lesson" are you going to learn in 1 to 3 racks of pool, especially when you are the opponent sitting in the chair the whole match. I would be too upset to learn anything. Nothing sucks like losing a match you never shot in. Just sayin.

"Too upset" because you're losing a match that you aren't supposed to win in a tournament that you know you're more than likely not going to win anyway?

I guess it depends on what your mindset is when you play in a small weekly tournament. I played in them to sharpen my skills because the competition made me bear down, and I played because I enjoyed them and I'd rather play pool on a Sun or Wed night as opposed to anything else. I don't recall ever getting upset over a weekly tournament, nor did I go into it expecting to win. I hoped to win, don't we all, but if we're realistic about it, unless you're that guy, the one you're currently complaining about, why would you expect to win?

As for "what kind of a lesson are you going to learn", that is up to you. You have the option to turn something you think is a negative into a positive. When your opponent has a shot that gives you fits, watch how they shoot it. Do they shoot it differently than you? You might just learn a better, more efficient and reliable way to make that shot. You have a front row seat to watch their bridge, their stroke, the kind of english they use on certain shots. The stuff you can learn from sitting in your chair is endless.

Do yourself a favor and go to a pro event. While you're there, really watch what they do. Pay special attention to situations that you find difficult. Go back to your pool room and try it the way they did it, practice it. If you give this experiment an honest effort, I bet your game will improve.

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Vinnie,

Heres another take on your question. For years I struggled with a certain force follow shot. Nearly always missed the shot but got position. Drew Busti at a Joss event. He won the match but the same shot came up. He played it as a draw shot instead of force follow. Drew the cue ball two rails. To this day, that's how I now play it. We're talking one shot that changed part of my game. Not a race to one, two or three games or whatever. I paid attention. Perhaps some complainers should do the same!

Lyn

Exactly what I was saying at the same time you were but you worded it much better than I did and in less words.

You turned what some would consider a "negative thing" into a very positive learning experience. Every cue sold in the world should come with instructions like "pay attention to how better players shoot & learn from it". :grin:

 

[Papa Red]

Question #1: What are weekly tournaments for from a business point?

Answer: Put cars in the parking lot!

Reason: If you drive by a place and see a full parking lot at a poolroom or club you wonder was is going on and stop in to see.


Question #2: What are weekly tournaments to a player?

Answer: Competition, practice, possible match up, and socializing.

Pure and simple, competition is the reason people play sports. If the competition is to strong for $10-$20 tournament, take up knitting.

 

[JoeyA]

Question #1: What are weekly tournaments for from a business point?

Answer: Put cars in the parking lot!

Reason: If you drive by a place and see a full parking lot at a poolroom or club you wonder was is going on and stop in to see.


Question #2: What are weekly tournaments to a player?

Answer: Competition, practice, possible match up, and socializing.

Pure and simple, competition is the reason people play sports. If the competition is to strong for $10-$20 tournament, take up knitting.

If pool room owners would take their heads out of the sand for a moment, they would consider getting a database of all of their customers' cell phones and keep it updated. When a big name is in town or there is some gambling action, they could send out a text message or maybe even a tweet to inform potential customers of who's in town and what's going down. That'll fill the parking lots. I can't begin to tell you how ticked off I am when I find out that the night I was missing from the pool hall, so and so came through and played so and so and he never missed a ball. That really steams me because I hate to miss and opportunity to see good players play.

Unfortunately, there's a few people who depend upon the income from these weekly tournaments and anyone who is trying to get in on their bread and butter are knocked and attempts are made to ostracize the better player. Most of the time, those individuals work hard to be influential in getting the better players banned.

 

[Papa Red]

If pool room owners would take their heads out of the sand for a moment, they would consider getting a database of all of their customers' cell phones and keep it updated. When a big name is in town or there is some gambling action, they could send out a text message or maybe even a tweet to inform potential customers of who's in town and what's going down. That'll fill the parking lots. I can't begin to tell you how ticked off I am when I find out that the night I was missing from the pool hall, so and so came through and played so and so and he never missed a ball. That really steams me because I hate to miss and opportunity to see good players play.

Unfortunately, there's a few people who depend upon the income from these weekly tournaments and anyone who is trying to get in on their bread and butter are knocked and attempts are made to ostracize the better player. Most of the time, those individuals work hard to be influential in getting the better players banned.

I feel the same way, missed a lot of action games because of this. We have been around long enough to know what it makes to make a pool room successful. Most room owners have no clue, they hire a non-pool playing management and staff and are not around. They make money but at the same time are being robbed. The room that are successful are owners that play or took the time to learn about pool and the players.
The old saying goes "Big fish in a small pond" are the ones complaining when a better player comes to the tournament. Hurts their pocket book and ego. Everyone watches them get beat and start thinking maybe if I learn to play better I can beat them.

 

[Neil]

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