Sandbagging at APA National level

pooln8r said:
I don't know the APA very well or how they structure a team but based on the leagues I do know I think that it's possible that if the players played their full speed that they wouldn't be able to play together on the same team with the people they want to play with.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, there are plenty of players who have been in APA long enough that their skill levels have "stagnated" or leveled-out. They won't improve any more than they already have, no matter how much they try or want to. My Monday night 8-ball team has eight players that pretty much are going to be at the skill level they are currently at for a long time (I would expect a couple of them to drop before they would move up), and we are never going to have a problem with the 23-rule. Because of this, we finish at or near the bottom of the standings in many sessions. To win consistently in the APA, it's best to have a few new players on the team just starting out that will eventually be a few skill levels higher than what they start out as. Or......you can win by manipulating the system. My 8-ball teams does neither of these, so we're pretty much screwed. But......we do clown around and have plenty of laughs!!!

Maniac
 
All as I mentioned earlier I am pretty new to all this. Do the APA or TAP have a competition where you can enter any team, any handicaps without the 23 or 25 rule?
 
justadub said:
I realize that I'm being naive, but I still don't understand the concept of dumping games and still being able to make the playoffs. Somehow the math doesn't add up to me.

We have 6 teams all with legit shots at getting the 3 spots available (fourth is a wildcard, random drawn) with three weeks left. How can anyone be dumping games and still expect to get into the playoffs, which is the point of the thing?

Padding the innings, I understand that concept, and how it can work. Whether I agree or not, I understand it. I just don't see how teams make this "dumping" work.

Guess I'm glad that I don't understand it, I suppose... enjoy he spoils of your cheating, gang. You sure do seem proud of your accomplishments.
Click to expand...

The answer is stacked teams , and game management . If enough of your players are underclocked , you can be confident of winning every week . But how big do you need to win ? Most 8ball divisions , 3 wins per week every week is good for first . likewise , 51 points per week consistently in 9ball usually is sufficient . In 8-ball , that gives you 2 losses per week to dump . In 9 ball , you can find 51 points with only 2 wins without raising anyones handicap.
First player wins 14-6 (he's underclocked , remember) high innings
2nd loses 12-8
3rd lose 13-7
4th wins 15-5 (see#1 , above) hi in
5th loses 13-7
there's your 51 , with only 2 'mild' wins , & you have 8 players to rotate the wins between . this should keep every players win % in the low 40's .
Remember , all these players are underclocked , so if they need to pick up the pace to win , they can do it.
The APA is less about shooting competition , and more about handicap management competition.
Play APA straight the 1st few years , and the frustration of being constantly frozen out may change your attitude.
you have to learn to beat them at their own game
 
Sandbagging has been around as long as handicapping. Presumably, this is APA's "highest stage" so I would say you can expect sandbagging to the highest degree possible. Looks how many teams there are, from all these places around the US... a few legit, a few lucky, half of them teams with baggers
 
Sandbagging from the local level through to the national level, that's the APA for you. I played one season, that scenario did it for me.
 
justadub said:
I realize that I'm being naive, but I still don't understand the concept of dumping games and still being able to make the playoffs. Somehow the math doesn't add up to me.

We have 6 teams all with legit shots at getting the 3 spots available (fourth is a wildcard, random drawn) with three weeks left. How can anyone be dumping games and still expect to get into the playoffs, which is the point of the thing?

Padding the innings, I understand that concept, and how it can work. Whether I agree or not, I understand it. I just don't see how teams make this "dumping" work.

Guess I'm glad that I don't understand it, I suppose... enjoy he spoils of your cheating, gang. You sure do seem proud of your accomplishments.
Click to expand...

Let me explain that one: Not everyone is dumping the same week. The captain sets up a rotation so that matches can be won every week & get the "right players" to lose. It's hard as hell to pull off, but it can be done.
 
Rak9up said:
I was at nationals 14 or 15 or so years ago. I saw a very pretty girl(2 handicapp) that caught my eye. I watched her play for a while and I was very impressed with her game. I was thinking to myself no way she's a 2. Now I wasn't on her team or the team she was playing. I was just a bystander watching. She stops to survey the table after her opponent played a good safe. I called the two refs over that were in between matches and just talking close by. I said "watch this girl for a sec". Now without a timeout she calls a 4 rail Kick, Carom in the corner. She shoots does everything she says but "jaws" the ball in the corner. I asked the 2 refs well are you going to move her up? Their answer "she missed the ball". I said "a 2 handicapp shouldn't know the concept of a 4 rail kick...or how to carom let alone incorporate them into one shot" again they said "but she missed the shot". That day I walked out and have never played another APA event...Been a BCA member ever since with NO REGRETS
Click to expand...
Why would she call her shot in APA?
 
ridinda9 said:
The answer is stacked teams , and game management . If enough of your players are underclocked , you can be confident of winning every week . But how big do you need to win ? Most 8ball divisions , 3 wins per week every week is good for first . likewise , 51 points per week consistently in 9ball usually is sufficient . In 8-ball , that gives you 2 losses per week to dump . In 9 ball , you can find 51 points with only 2 wins without raising anyones handicap.
First player wins 14-6 (he's underclocked , remember) high innings
2nd loses 12-8
3rd lose 13-7
4th wins 15-5 (see#1 , above) hi in
5th loses 13-7
there's your 51 , with only 2 'mild' wins , & you have 8 players to rotate the wins between . this should keep every players win % in the low 40's .
Remember , all these players are underclocked , so if they need to pick up the pace to win , they can do it.
The APA is less about shooting competition , and more about handicap management competition.
Play APA straight the 1st few years , and the frustration of being constantly frozen out may change your attitude.
you have to learn to beat them at their own game
Click to expand...

Using your scenario, I still don't see it working, but perhaps its just our local league being quite balanced... Currently, after 12 weeks of a 15 week session, we have 11 out of 12 teams averaging over 3 wins per week. The 11th place team is only 8 points behind the third place (last automatic playoff spot) team. Throwing ANY games doesn't make mathematical sense to me. Unless you're trying to "save" yourself for a future session, or the 1-in-8 chance that your team is drawn as the wild-card entry into the playoffs, or the second-chance entry tournament.

That, and none of us are good enough to be "underclocked" and able to simply turn it on whenever necessary, I suppose.

Seems like way too much work, even if I were to be unethical enough to try it. I think I'll just try and win every time and see how that works out.

sheesh
 
Foolio said:
Onw of the reasons people bash the APA is the sandbagging/underrated player. That being said for those of you who have gone to vegas for Nationals, how many blatant examples of sandbagging do you see?

I am wondering about this because I will be going to nationals for eight ball and don't know what to expect. So many people speak of it that I'm going to start thinking that everyone is one sl up :confused:. Any experiences or stories out there?
Click to expand...

I have played in the APA many years (since 1994) . I have been to Vegas 3 times - 2 for 8-ball and 1 for 9-ball. My teams have played over 12matches there (fished 33rd once and 129th twice) and I have only seen 1 player that shot so far above their skill level that it made me even think twice. But I also believe that each team has one or 2 players who are at the top of their skill level and who have not moved up so i just considered that that was what he was. If a team does not have tjhose players, then they may not get to Vegas.

The issue with most people (including many that post here) is that in their opinion, if thier own player shoots well then he was having a good day. If the opponents shoots well, then he must have ben sandbagging. Just because beats your good player does not mean he is a sandbagger. That is a concept that many can't understand.

I am sure there are some sandbaggers in Vegas and they DQ a few teams every year, but to say that it is the norm is a croc of crap and I know from personal experience.

Leagueguy
 
justadub said:
Using your scenario, I still don't see it working, but perhaps its just our local league being quite balanced... Currently, after 12 weeks of a 15 week session, we have 11 out of 12 teams averaging over 3 wins per week. The 11th place team is only 8 points behind the third place (last automatic playoff spot) team. Throwing ANY games doesn't make mathematical sense to me. Unless you're trying to "save" yourself for a future session, or the 1-in-8 chance that your team is drawn as the wild-card entry into the playoffs, or the second-chance entry tournament.

That, and none of us are good enough to be "underclocked" and able to simply turn it on whenever necessary, I suppose.

Seems like way too much work, even if I were to be unethical enough to try it. I think I'll just try and win every time and see how that works out.

sheesh
Click to expand...

That shouldn't be possible, even if everyone is blasting the last place team 5-0 every week. I think your league may give paperworks points for properly filled out scoresheets & that is what is making all the scores look higher.
 
This is my 2nd time going and I to have only seen one person who I thought was underrated. I tell my guys to shoot there game and win because this might be there last opportunity to go to vegas.
 
TimKrazyMon said:
That shouldn't be possible, even if everyone is blasting the last place team 5-0 every week. I think your league may give paperworks points for properly filled out scoresheets & that is what is making all the scores look higher.
Click to expand...

That is correct, a team does get one point for properly filled out and timely delivered paperwork.

Maybe that helps screw with the sandbagging? I sure hope so.
 
The APA nationals is all about sifting through the best local sandbaggers that rise to the top as the best regional sandbaggers to determine the national champions of sandbagging.

Since you asked, there are several people in my area who've cashed in pro-am events that are SL4's and below. Those who can't spot the sandbagging in APA probably don't matchup much..
 
Maniac said:
Believe it or not, there are plenty of players who have been in APA long enough that their skill levels have "stagnated" or leveled-out. They won't improve any more than they already have, no matter how much they try or want to. My Monday night 8-ball team has eight players that pretty much are going to be at the skill level they are currently at for a long time (I would expect a couple of them to drop before they would move up), and we are never going to have a problem with the 23-rule. Because of this, we finish at or near the bottom of the standings in many sessions. To win consistently in the APA, it's best to have a few new players on the team just starting out that will eventually be a few skill levels higher than what they start out as. Or......you can win by manipulating the system. My 8-ball teams does neither of these, so we're pretty much screwed. But......we do clown around and have plenty of laughs!!!

Maniac
Click to expand...

I wish I could play on your team. Screw Vegas.
 
LeagueGuy said:
...
The issue with most people (including many that post here) is that in their opinion, if thier own player shoots well then he was having a good day. If the opponents shoots well, then he must have ben sandbagging. Just because beats your good player does not mean he is a sandbagger. That is a concept that many can't understand.

I am sure there are some sandbaggers in Vegas and they DQ a few teams every year, but to say that it is the norm is a croc of crap and I know from personal experience.

Leagueguy
Click to expand...
I am of the same opinion as you. There is sandbagging and it does have an effect, but there is not nearly as much sandbagging as some people claim. People have good days and bad days. For that matter people often play during the same game over, under, and at their handicap rating. I think a lot of people are "careful" with their handicap, but I don't know if I'd call that real sandbagging. I found in playing "careful" my actual skill level declined to match my rating. It is a rare player who can hold back and not hurt their overall game.
I do think however that most teams who make it to Vegas have 1 or 2 players who are at least 1 better than their handicap rating. Except for people I know personally, the only ones I would say I know are absolutely not sandbagging are 8-ball 7s and 9-ball 9s.
JMHO.
 
justadub said:
Currently, after 12 weeks of a 15 week session, we have 11 out of 12 teams averaging over 3 wins per week.

sheesh
Click to expand...

MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE
are you taking into account outside factors like bonus points affecting your totals ? In every week , in order for 6 of 12 teams to win 3 points , 6 of 12 teams must win only 2 points .
In order for 11 teams to be over 36 points , there must be an outside factor such as weekly 'bonus points' added by some league operators for 'on-time' scoresheets , etc.
 
justadub said:
Maybe that helps screw with the sandbagging?
Click to expand...
nope , that helps unscrupulous league operators adjust points for their pet teams .Earned points should be the only points.
one of APAs favorite mottos is "win from the table , not from the chair".
The very idea of 'bonus points' is in direct contradiction of that motto.
the point is for 'properly filled out' paperwork.
if you accidentally leave out a players player number , then the paperwork is "improperly" filled out , and the L.O. can deduct a point from you ?
If your paperwork is 'late' , the L.O. can deduct a point from you?
Wow , I hope there is a way you can audit every other teams scoresheet every single week so that you can see that this is applied fairly , because I am personally aware of APA regions where it is not .
Miss the drop-box deadline ? No problem , the L.O. is my BFF and I'll just drop it by their house before they're done inputing scores the next day. BONUS !
conversely , your sheet can be sitting right in front of them when they mark it 'past due' & withhold your point.
If the 'pet team' forgets to fill in a player number box , maybe the L.O. just pens it in for them cuz they 'jest forgot' . BONUS !
Not all league operators are unscrupulous - I know some I would trust . But I know 1 for certain who , if I had to invite them for dinner , would force me to lock up the good china.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top