Sandbagging at APA National level

[Foolio]

i ask all of you posters who have all this first hand knowledge, were you personally involved in the match where you witnessed this sand bagging? the reason i asked is that some people have a very hard time with self assessment after a loss....my point is look at the performance in most cases and you will see a player that maybe played a little better than usual but also a player that did NOT play to his or her normal level. i know that it was hard for me to learn to critique myself objectively but that once i did i began to show some improvement.

Mike

Thank you for your post. I completely agree. My team played a somewhat new team in our local team championships, and my capitain decided i should play the three. I am rated a four so its a 3-2 race, and I almost never lose to threes or twos. The guy shot very well in our match, his stroke was no three stroke and made some incredible shots, but didn't get out. I was frustrated, I got into my own head. Needless to say I didnt shoot that well, I had many chances that i didn't capitalize on. One of my teamates was also upset, he thought there was no way he was a three. Even his teamates, one that I personally am friends with told me he's never shot that well, he had a good day.

My teamate later told me after the team lost something that changed me. Even though that he played better than a three, it shouldn't matter, i am the better shooter. My teamate knew it, I knew it, and everytime I get to the table I should be able to get out or leave him helpless, get into a chess match. We got to the finals and that team was in the hot seat, we beat them the first team match and when the second team match started we had a rematch and he was a four now. I has some incredible runs, if he missed i was out. i also realized that he wasn't a sandbagger as i thought he was in the beginning, it is possible for some people to have good days.

 

[Foolio]

Foolio,

Don't sweat the sandbaggers. There are always going to be people who are at the top of their skill level, or even one level lower than they should be. This doesn't mean that they can't be beat. Have you ever racklessed a 6? I know you have, so that means they could have played as a 2, and you still would have beaten them. Just play your game, be smart and do your best to stay focused. Don't get intimidated by what your opponent does on the table. Just treat every turn at the table as your chance to gain control of the outcome. You play smart, so you can beat anyone. If you play a two who breaks and runs on you, take a deep breath and tell yourself that you're not going to give them the.chance to do that again. Everyone is going to miss a shot. That's when you attack. Keep them in their chair, and then leave them locked up when you finally let them back to the table. Do this a few times and watch how their attitude changes. The sandbaggers hate this, and their game goes downhill quickly. That's when you know you have them.

More than anything else, HAVE FUN OUT THERE. You're in Vegas to play pool. It doesn't get much more fun than that. I know you and your team will represent our league with grace and class. Leave a positive impression on every team you meet. Them stomp them on the tables.

Good luck and shoot well.

Johnny

P.S. I'm still not gonna give you our APA race next time we match up. I might as well just give you my money and save the table time.

Thanks Johnny, I'm really excited for nationals. Just the thought of beating a player from another state gets me riled up. I can't wait to compete.


no apa race? ive been trying the races latley as practice for nationals. as a four ive haven't lost yet, except that one to scott. that comeback that i had on Liza gave me a lot of confidence. You are correct, i can't give them the chance. I've also been playing as a five in case i do go up during nationals, and thats goin well too.

But untill the system says im a five its still 5-3!! lol

 

[ragu]

been 7 times , seen both sides , the biggest sandbaggers play in the minis, seen them in team play but overall considering how many teams it s fairly legit , there will always be those teams that abuse the system , got eliminated by a team that got dq'd 2 years ago , got some of their money after, and a lousy invite the next year ( at our own expense lol)

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

I am wondering about this because I will be going to nationals for eight ball and don't know what to expect. So many people speak of it that I'm going to start thinking that everyone is one sl up . Any experiences or stories out there?

It's one of those things that everyone should do once. After the first time, you realize it's a heist and will never be fair. I lost for almost two straight years and got beat 19 to 1 out there in 9 ball. The best part was that the other team *****ed. It's full of people who are sore loser's and take it way to seriously. If everyone would excpet the fact that it's for fun and none of them will ever be a top tier player they would be a lot better off. If I had $1 for everytime I heard the phrase " we played a team of 4's that played like 7's " I would have enough money to to spend new year's in Vegas at the Bellagio and even rent the pent house. Good luck to you, it's worth the trip just to see the town.

 

[JohnnyShakes]

If I had $1 for everytime I heard the phrase " we played a team of 4's that played like 7's " I would have enough money to to spend new year's in Vegas at the Bellagio and even rent the pent house. Good luck to you, it's worth the trip just to see the town.

$takeHor$e,

I never understood that statement "We played a team of 4s that played like 7s". I've seen 7s have nights where they shoot like 4s. And I've had 4s break and run on me. It's all about what they can do consistently, and one race isn't enough time to accurately gauge that. Is 7 speed getting out every time you're at the table? Missing one shot per rack? Two or more shots? If I run all the balls off the table and miss the 8, I expect that will lead to some zero or 1 inning losses on my behalf. It doesn't mean that someone necessarily shot over their level, let alone is sandbagging. It meant I played stupid and made the game as easy as possible for my opponent. I've seen 3s break and run 9 ball racks. But they couldn't come close to doing it again. And I almost had a 2 (a very legitimate 2,btw) almost break and run on me. Missed a straight in 8 ball for what surely would have been the highlight of her pool playing life. And I've seen plenty of teams full of strong players where I was nervous about the race I would be in with any of them. But I've never felt like I couldn't win a particular race until the last 8 ball dropped. No one I've met in APA is going to run a set on you from the lag, so whatever happens, I will have had something to say about the outcome. And that's all I want. I don't want to whine about "unfair" races. I just want to play, get better every time I'm at the table, and win when I shoot well enough to win. The sandbaggers can have their national champion trophies, jackets and prize money. The whiners can have their excuses for losing. I guarantee I'm having more fun than both of them, and I have no problem sleeping at night.

Johnny

 

[1on1pooltournys]

Worst league in pool

The APA is the worst league in pool..

Thank you. :smile:

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

$takeHor$e,

I never understood that statement "We played a team of 4s that played like 7s". I've seen 7s have nights where they shoot like 4s. And I've had 4s break and run on me. It's all about what they can do consistently, and one race isn't enough time to accurately gauge that. Is 7 speed getting out every time you're at the table? Missing one shot per rack? Two or more shots? If I run all the balls off the table and miss the 8, I expect that will lead to some zero or 1 inning losses on my behalf. It doesn't mean that someone necessarily shot over their level, let alone is sandbagging. It meant I played stupid and made the game as easy as possible for my opponent. I've seen 3s break and run 9 ball racks. But they couldn't come close to doing it again. And I almost had a 2 (a very legitimate 2,btw) almost break and run on me. Missed a straight in 8 ball for what surely would have been the highlight of her pool playing life. And I've seen plenty of teams full of strong players where I was nervous about the race I would be in with any of them. But I've never felt like I couldn't win a particular race until the last 8 ball dropped. No one I've met in APA is going to run a set on you from the lag, so whatever happens, I will have had something to say about the outcome. And that's all I want. I don't want to whine about "unfair" races. I just want to play, get better every time I'm at the table, and win when I shoot well enough to win. The sandbaggers can have their national champion trophies, jackets and prize money. The whiners can have their excuses for losing. I guarantee I'm having more fun than both of them, and I have no problem sleeping at night.

Johnny

This is probably one of the best APA statements I have heard.

The statement about 4's playing like 7's refeer's to people getting mad when they lose because they played bad or can not play under pressure and therefore blaming their own faults on someone else.

I try to tell everyone that the number rating in the APA is for the most part a joke. Just like you said, consistency is the key and to raise or lower someone based on one set is obserd.

I played a 7 several years ago that would have run the set out if not for missing a tough break out shot in the last game. I personally know a few players that could and have done it.

The last two sentences in red are the key and it's a shame more people wont realize it and realize that is what the APA is all about.

 

[Island Drive]

Onw of the reasons people bash the APA is the sandbagging/underrated player. That being said for those of you who have gone to vegas for Nationals, how many blatant examples of sandbagging do you see?

I am wondering about this because I will be going to nationals for eight ball and don't know what to expect. So many people speak of it that I'm going to start thinking that everyone is one sl up . Any experiences or stories out there?

When you combine pool/perfectionism/alcohol, nits, egos and late night bar room activities you've got the perfect enviornment for an Oxymoron statement when you ask the sandbagging question of the APA. They have actually had people that either won or finished right at the top disqualified because of "Unknown'' ability that became ''known'', big surprise eh? But as part of the billiard market at least there are choices and this is one of many leagues which is a good thing.
On another note, east coast 5's I've heard play allot better than small town 7's from rural america.

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

Make your own informed choice

Has any team ever won in Vegas that didn't resort to at least some deception?

I've never played in a pool league, but I've been around handicapping in golf a lot. You can not win any decent handicapped golf event that brings players together from various courses unless you pad your handicap. In golf, like pool, it is impossible to police every player (especially public course players).

So as individuals we make our choices. IMO, we can either:

1) play by the rules and enjoy ourselves even though we don't stand a snowball's chance

2) play the deception game and be competitive

3) don't participate in games that you KNOW you can only be competitive in if you deceive

Pool is in the same boat as a ton of other handicapped games. Bowling, darts, golf - hell - even Scrabble, lol. C'est la vie.

 

[pooln8r]

With all this business about knowing which players to have dump their match (and when): Will someone relate a story about watching a match where it appeared pretty obvious that both players were trying to lose? I would imagine it must happen on occasion. That would be entertaining to watch. :grin:

I watched a VNEA match on the A team league night where the losing team was to move on to play a team that both teams knew they could rack up serious points against and end up potentially in the league championship match. The match was hilarious and sometimes came down to who left the best leave for the other player. No one wanted to shoot the eight. It was absolutely a race to the bottom. There was less drinking than usual as I think intentionally losing and making it look good can take some serious effort but it was funny as can be. I didn't agree with the whole thing but I had to watch this car wreck of a match especially since they were most of the areas top players..lol It was liking watching hustlers work on downplaying their skills but everyone knew what they were doing and they kept laughing about it all too. If an eight went down it was either by accident or the shot was just too damn obvious to dog and as for points no one wanted to get the LO suspicious of what they were doing.
I still think it was pretty clear what they were doing in their scores but no one in the league ever called them out on what they did. I guess it was sort of an honor among thieves sort of thing even though these guys were the stand up guys of the league that other people looked up to. I still think it was wrong but it sure was entertaining and one of the funniest league nights I've ever watched.

PS...I did try to report this but no one cared to listen. I guess it was just part of the game to them as neither team complained about the other and that's why the LO didn't change anything. Sandbagging 1 Honesty and Integrity 0

 

[Georgia Boy]

Pooln8r that is clearly an obvious case of sandbagging and many people would find this particular case amusing and whilst I can appreciate that it's blatantly cheating. I hope I would have found it sad and annoying, but in all truth I couldn't say that as I have never seen that or anything close to it happen. I hope they went on to lose their next match!

It's just a sad reflection on today's society I guess. I have never thrown a game and never will throw one or give away points. I am just so confused I suppose, I want to beat the crap out of everyone I play, I don't but I try to.

 

[ragu]

sandbagging happens in all leagues not just the apa, i've seen some great points made like the one regarding consistency and how to be sucessful at any handicapped event your going to have people that are not rated accurately, people who complain usually are just people who cant win on the big stage

 

[PUTT4DACA$$H]

Dq'd at APA NATIONALS

I captained a team last year that got beat by a team of cheaters for the round of 32 final teams.In a properly handicapped match in any sport should come down to a coin flip for the win. The person who cpitalizes on their chances and doesn't give away unforced errors should be the winner.SANDBAGGERS want to be able to win without playing their best game. I lost the lag to a SL3 and he broke and ran out!!! now I must win 5 in a row. I clawed back a couple three games but ended up losing, although I still had chances to win even against this guy who is a couple of skill levels off of his true skill level ( maybe 3 levels off!!!) Anyway I lost as did my teammates on our other two matches and we were done.

about two months later I got a letter stating that the team that we lost to had been DQ'd for cheating and they gave us the $$ for the win instead of the loss. The bad part is that maybe 6 or 8 teams got beat by this team and put out of the tournament by these cheaters. I took pride in the fact that I have never told any of my players to do anything other than have fun and try your best to take advantage of your opprotunities. Sandbaggers are cheaters and they all cheat at other things in life not just pool I'm sure.

THE APA ISN'T ABOUT HAVING ALL SL6 &SL7 PLAYERS AND MAKING THEM PLAY AT THE WRONG SKILL LEVEL. iT IS ABOUT FINDING THE BEST PLAYERS AT EACH SKILL LEVEL AND PLAYING AS A WELL ROUNDED TEAM!!!

HAVE FUN AND PLAY WITH INTEGRITY, SOMETHING CHEATERS KNOW NOTHING ABOUT

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

THE APA ISN'T ABOUT HAVING ALL SL6 &SL7 PLAYERS AND MAKING THEM PLAY AT THE WRONG SKILL LEVEL. iT IS ABOUT FINDING THE BEST PLAYERS AT EACH SKILL LEVEL AND PLAYING AS A WELL ROUNDED TEAM!!!

HAVE FUN AND PLAY WITH INTEGRITY, SOMETHING CHEATERS KNOW NOTHING ABOUT

Exactly, people act like it's the biggest thing since sliced bread then they go to Vegas and get steam rolled and jump on the cheater band wagon and go nowhere. A few years ago a 7 from here went and had a watch on him, how the hell can they justify that....maybe make him an 8.