Grain runout in shaft wood

"I have and have seen shafts with some pretty severe run-out stay straight and play great, so it is not the end of the world if there is run-out in a shaft. The tendency is certainly there, but straight grain shafts will warp also"

This is amazing. You are coming on here trying to defend runout in shaft wood and say that it's not so bad.. Not the end of the world? It IS the world, as far as raw shaft wood goes. We've already been through this: it's the single most important thing.
 
carguy said:
"I have and have seen shafts with some pretty severe run-out stay straight and play great, so it is not the end of the world if there is run-out in a shaft. The tendency is certainly there, but straight grain shafts will warp also"

This is amazing. You are coming on here trying to defend runout in shaft wood and say that it's not so bad.. Not the end of the world? It IS the world, as far as raw shaft wood goes. We've already been through this: it's the single most important thing.
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Just my observation, no defence is needed, just an understanding that lesser quality wood is used all the time. I understand you have not handled a lot of wood, you will see shafts as I described sometime, it is not that rare of an occurrence. Lots of cue makers use less than perfectly straight grained wood in sneaky's. We all want perfect wood, but a judicious and prudent use of not so perfect specimens has it's place.

I offered you a source for wood beyond your expectations, it's up to you to pursue it or twist in the wind.
 
You're really having a hard time staying on point.
The discussion is not about whether or not there are great playing, straight cues in the world with runout in the shaft wood.
Look, people make all sorts of things. I once saw a boat a guy made out of egg cartons. It was pretty wild. But myself, I'd probably use fiberglass and poly.
Anyone can do anything...that's not the point.
The cues I make will have as little runout in the shaft wood as I can come up with. I don't (and won't) have a second line to use up the below-standard stuff.
Someone else pointed out that they had never seen a SouthWest with runout in the grain. I haven't either.
The discussion is not about whether there is good shaft wood on the earth. Of course there is. Of course it's hard to find. Of course it's expensive. And I'll bet you do have a great source for it.
The whole thing is about whether it's cool to offer for sale an alleged unique, premium grade article which first and foremost does not pass the very most basic qualitative standard, in this case, "straight grain".
Twist in the wind? A little later, perhaps.
 
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You can put a shaft(s) that is worthy of a 5K cue on a sneaky, but you won't get paid, or to say it another way, you can't make any money by putting two $200 shafts on a $350 sneaky.

That does not make the shaft-wood with the run-off second line, it is commensurate with the style of cue.

Now, to get back on topic, tell us who sold you this wood you are so upset about. From your previous posts you say your were sold squares that were priced as straight grained and did not meet that criteria. How much were they and were you offered a chance to return any or all for a refund? From your horror stories you have tried and have not been able to locate what you want on your own. I am sure I am not the only one who has offered you help, and I know that if you accept that help you will be happy again.
 
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qbilder said:
Out of the 700 shafts you processed, how many were 20+ GPI? How many were loaded with sugar content? How many had mineral? How many were yellow or brown? How many did not come from Michigan? How many were not vacuum dried? How many were traditional dehumidification kiln dried? How many were air dried? How many were true quarter sawn & how many were pain sawn?

If you haven't cut & played with hundreds of the differing characteristics I mentioned, how can you judge & compare? Not knocking on you here. I'm just thinking 700 shafts is grossly premature to be throwing around the term, "expert". No disrespect meant but 700 shafts is infantile. Please don't take that as a knock because it's not. I'm just trying to find a spectrum we can all understand so we are on the same page with this conversation.
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That's fair,

If you read my post, I say clearly that I am not an expert. The growth rings range between 14 to 20 +. All of my shafts are single source and come from one place in northern Mich. Before that, the 30 or 40 I purchased as cones pretty much were not that good and I paid too much. Thats all of the experience I need to be an expert on spending my money on a pig in a poke.

I paid over 5 grand for my doweling machine and by hand picking my planks that are vacuum kiln dried from one source in my opinion was like hitting a grand slam. Since the shaft is the singular most important component of the hit of a cue it is very important to get it right as your reputation will ultimately be judged by the shafts performance.

Some people pay 20 or 30 dollars for great shaft wood. I pay about 3.50 each and that includes ripping and cross cut charges at the yard. So after about 300 shafts you pay for the machine from and expensing prospective.

Most cue makers charge at minimum of $ 150.00 for a shaft. 300 X 150.00 is 45,000.00 minus 5,000.00 for the machine equals about 40,000.00 profit minus your labor and overhead. Do the math without the dowel machine and you will want one asap.

I have total control over my process and not at the mercy of a merchant. People who sell wood are not going to throw away the bad ones. They mix them up with some good one. Everyone I have talked to tells me the same story. They buy them by the pallet load. No one classifies planks and sells them to you that way. Out of 200 planks I only take 2 or 3% and reject the rest.

I take your comments as a constructive questioning attitude and am, nor would ever be offended by a respectful question.

600 shafts equals 3 to 4 hundred cue builds ( some with only one shaft ) by the time I build and sell 350 cues I will have processed at least another 600+ and I hope that by that time I am an expert in shaft wood. I don't think I am going to get dumber at it.

Judging wood and getting repeatable results in you shafts after learning selection and classification techniques is not a mystical or secretive endeavor. I was very lucky because the guy who works at the lumber yard that I buy my wood from was a well known cue maker here in Chicago in the 70s and 80s. He gave me some tips on reading the planks and has been very helpful to me and my education.

I have only built about 60 cues so far and don't think my stock is some huge number of shafts. Cue makers who buy 1000s of shaft dowels at a time are into pretty big production numbers for sure. All the more reason they should classify and buy planks to dowel themselves. It's no clue economics 101!!!

All I am saying is that when buying shafts from someone else I didn't learn anything and had no control over the process.

Rick
 
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Yesterday I made a bit of an ass of myself on this forum.
I had purchased some shaft wood from someone and did not like it. The trouble is I got names confused and blamed the wrong guy. Not too cool.
To make it worse, I've done business with the guy I blamed, and his products are excellent and I never had a single complaint with him! To the contrary, he has been a gentleman in every way, including in the face of my screwup. I profusely apologize to Hangemhigh for my conduct. This whole thing was my blunder and I want to remove this post as it is not fair to Hangemhigh and is an embarrassment to me.
 
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The growth rings range between 14 to 20 +. All of my shafts came from one place in northern Mich. Before that, the 30 or 40 I purchased as cones pretty much were not that good and I paid too much. Thats all of the experience I need to be an expert on spending my money on a pig in a poke.
Some people pay 20 or 30 dollars for great shaft wood. I pay about 3.50 each and that includes ripping and cross cut charges at the yard. So after about 300 shafts you pay for the machine from and expensing prospective.

14-20 RPI straight grain dowels should easily sell at $15 each. Considering we roll the dice on $8-10 dowels .

Beyond 20 RPI's is moot imo.
It's nice but it won't pocket one more ball.
I'm actually liking 14-20 RPI's because it's easier to track the grains .

I don't know if shaft cutting is science but wood IMHO will almost always move by/towards it's grain direction. If it runs-out to the left, it will most likely never warp to the right. I could be wrong of course as wood is wood.

But, I like not having runouts near the tip end. I've had shafts that look nasty at the end that stayed doggone straight too that boggled me, but they were exception.
 
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carguy said:
Ahh yes, the internet. It does filter conversation in a certain way, doesn't it? It's not really much like talking eyeball to eyeball.
Actually, I have gotten great shaft squares and dowels from several very non-exotic sources, plus one poster here hooked me up with some very nice squares. I paid the going rate (there wasn't that much variation) for them all around and, by far, most were pretty good to excellent. There were a couple dogs for sure, OK, more that a couple, which will never be pool cue parts. Perhaps some day I'll make a maple chair.... Perhaps, in time, a set...
I have to say you won my respect by calling me out this way and it showed some class for sure. So I will say without hesitation that the sunken shaft wood you sold me...I just don't know what to say...it was like a used car with a knock in the engine. To me, it is not very good looking shaft wood, with wild runout. Wild.
Now, just to get it out there, you immediately agreed to refund my money. That's none of the problem.
What the problem is, is who on earth would, given the state of the world as it is, make a shaft out of wood with THAT much runout? I mean, it's radical. Who on earth would consider that stuff premium anything? It has nothing to do with price. It's "Why on earth would anyone make a pool cue from THIS stuff? Premium? Wow. Premium what?
I feel a little weird that I cherry-picked the batch (of 10) by keeping the only three that stood a chance, and one other that never did, but really dude, people buy that? For what?? I would have never posted this on here this way if you had not requested it. I'm a square shooter and an easy-going guy.
I'm not trying to bust your balls or just maliciously knock your action and would have never used your name without coaxing, but for serious, you make pool cues out of this stuff?
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LOL, I don't sell sunken shaft wood or squares. I also don't describe the shaft-wood blanks I sell as premium straight grained. I go to great lengths to say that they have run-out and sugar spots, and other things that keep them from being described as premium straight grained shaft-wood blanks. They were sold to you exactly as they are, laser straight , aged shaft-wood.


I also guarantee satisfaction with everything I sell and you found that out by a no hassle return of the shaft-wood you were unhappy with, no questions asked.

The lies you have told about our transaction and my description on the shaft-wood are unwarranted and despicable.

There is 32 pages of descriptions I have made about my shaft-wood. Never do I describe them as "premimum straight grained", "sunken wood' , or any other description you have claimed in the posts in this thread.

Here is your post on page 8 of my for sale thread, which is in complete contradiction to the lies you have posted in this thread today:

Originally Posted by carguy
The wood I've received (twice) from Tommy is of excellent quality. I purchased some of everything and it's all great. Tommy is also very prompt and an easy guy to do business with.
Robin Snyder
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=185436&page=8 post 120
There is no explanation for your countless lies today, so I am going to write it off by guessing you have me confused with another seller of shaft-wood. Robin, you also gave the same praise in your i-trader comments, evidence backing up what you posted in my for-sale thread.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/itrader.php?u=11432 6/4/2010


Three months later you post a diatribe of nothing but falsehoods. Why Robin?
 
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Here is the explanation: You are not the guy who I was referring to and I got the names wrong and I am really sorry. I got it so wrong it's really...well, not funny, but it's really something. You are the guy with the "lazer straight" shafts and other maple parts. YOUR STUFF WAS MOST EXCELLENT!!! I purchased it twice and would do so again.
Who the bozo has been is now obvious to all: me.
I purchased some wood I do not like but it certainly was not from you. I got the names confused, is what happened.
I was particularly disappointed since I liked your products so much and you were being so weird about it. I once again apologize. In my book, you are 100%. Best regards, Robin Snyder
 
carguy said:
Ahh yes, the internet. It does filter conversation in a certain way, doesn't it? It's not really much like talking eyeball to eyeball.
Actually, I have gotten great shaft squares and dowels from several very non-exotic sources, plus one poster here hooked me up with some very nice squares. I paid the going rate (there wasn't that much variation) for them all around and, by far, most were pretty good to excellent. There were a couple dogs for sure, OK, more that a couple, which will never be pool cue parts. Perhaps some day I'll make a maple chair.... Perhaps, in time, a set...
I have to say you won my respect by calling me out this way and it showed some class for sure. So I will say without hesitation that the sunken shaft wood you sold me...I just don't know what to say...it was like a used car with a knock in the engine. To me, it is not very good looking shaft wood, with wild runout. Wild.
Now, just to get it out there, you immediately agreed to refund my money. That's none of the problem.
What the problem is, is who on earth would, given the state of the world as it is, make a shaft out of wood with THAT much runout? I mean, it's radical. Who on earth would consider that stuff premium anything? It has nothing to do with price. It's "Why on earth would anyone make a pool cue from THIS stuff? Premium? Wow. Premium what?
I feel a little weird that I cherry-picked the batch (of 10) by keeping the only three that stood a chance, and one other that never did, but really dude, people buy that? For what?? I would have never posted this on here this way if you had not requested it. I'm a square shooter and an easy-going guy.
I'm not trying to bust your balls or just maliciously knock your action and would have never used your name without coaxing, but for serious, you make pool cues out of this stuff?
Edit: I feel like I really let loose here, but not without the OP's coaxing. If I'm over the top, I'll take it down. I ain't here to rumble.
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Thanks for the clarification, no harm, no foul.
 
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carguy said:
Here is the explanation: You are not the guy who I was referring to and I got the names wrong and I am really sorry. I got it so wrong it's really...well, not funny, but it's really something. You are the guy with the "lazer straight" shafts and other maple parts. YOUR STUFF WAS MOST EXCELLENT!!! I purchased it twice and would do so again.
Who the bozo has been is now obvious to all: me.
I purchased some wood I do not like but it certainly was not from you. I got the names confused, is what happened.
I was particularly disappointed since I liked your products so much and you were being so weird about it. I once again apologize. In my book, you are 100%. Best regards, Robin Snyder
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We all make mistakes Robin, I do every day. Thanks for straightening it out, it is much appreciated.
 
Again, see my last post. There is an ass running about and it is me, sir. And once again I offer you my apology. I got your name confused with that of another. Nothing more or less than that. I was completely happy with everything I purchased from you. I had no complaint about runout on your shafts because there was hardly any at all, none on most shafts.
Again sir, all I can do is apologize, which I most certainly do.
Regards, Robin
 
carguy said:
Again, see my last post. There is an ass running about and it is me, sir. And once again I offer you my apology. I got your name confused with that of another. Nothing more or less than that. I was completely happy with everything I purchased from you. I had no complaint about runout on your shafts because there was hardly any at all, none on most shafts.
Again sir, all I can do is apologize, which I most certainly do.
Regards, Robin
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Apology accepted and kudos to you for being forthright with your correction. Thanks.
 
I think it's time we all sit down for beer & a burger. Could be an interesting conversation if not for being online.
 
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