Lining up

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Had some tips today from an AZ poster who plays good (Banking B) he offered a few minor tips on lining up and building a stance. Does anyone have anything they do to line up. The iems Brian suggested for me were...

Square up to shot with shoulders (my left usually lagged back I shoot left handed)
Square up bridge to line of CB path
Slight head rotation (caused by left shoulder lag)

These minor items cause some misses and I will be working on them in my game. This squaring up has major implications just thought I owuld share. I am playing pretty well about to go back to 14.1 wish me luck.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Square up to shot with shoulders

I think this will cause you to reach across your body with your bridge arm, and maybe will put your hip in the way of your cue.

In the video linked by Ralph Kramden, Thorsten Hohmann shows one way to find a body-to-stick angle that might work better for you.

pj
chgo
 

elvicash

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I think this will cause you to reach across your body with your bridge arm, and maybe will put your hip in the way of your cue.

In the video linked by Ralph Kramden, Thorsten Hohmann shows one way to find a body-to-stick angle that might work better for you.

pj
chgo

I did not explain very well, when I am standing UP behind the shot and looking at my shot squaring shoulders up while looking down the cue ball path to the first contact point (normally the object ball) allows me to start out square to shot.

When I get into my shot my shooting hand side big toe is on the CB path about 45 deg. Cue is on the CB line and my body is setup relative to cue. My bridge shoulder leads and stroke shoulder trails, bridge arm out and set, palm of bridge is down solid fat of hand first, locked down solid with a press. Stoke elbow is over cue chin over cue and head square to shot.

The squaring up of the shoulders is an early phase of the setup to be square at the key moment prior to stepping into the shot.

Mark Jarvis gave me a similar hint, for sighting a ball into a pocket, when picking the exact portion of the pocket to receive the OB, make sure shoulders are square to the shot pocket line do not be looking and standing at an angle relative to what you are sighting. Get behind it to look and be square when you do look.

Thanks to both Brian and Mark, I appreciate having input from some elite players, I know I will catch on one of these days. Great info.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
elvicash:
The squaring up of the shoulders is an early phase of the setup to be square at the key moment prior to stepping into the shot.

Mark Jarvis gave me a similar hint, for sighting a ball into a pocket, when picking the exact portion of the pocket to receive the OB, make sure shoulders are square to the shot pocket line do not be looking and standing at an angle relative to what you are sighting. Get behind it to look and be square when you do look.

Oh, I get you now. Pretty interesting - I'll have to give it a try. If it only makes my pre-shot routine more deliberate it will probably be an improvement.

pj
chgo
 

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
The squaring up of the shoulders is an early phase of the setup to be square at the key moment prior to stepping into the shot.

What you described in detail in your above post sounds VERY similar to how C.J. Wiley teaches getting into your stance on his DVD "Ultimate Pool Secrets". I've started using this approach and I like it a LOT!!!

Maniac
 

Aaron_S

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
One change I have made to my lining up process is to find my ghost ball and focus on the base of the ghost ball when I am lining up. I have not changed my actual stance or body position (which, as PJ can tell you, are not exactly textbook), but have noticed that I feel more solid/balanced over the ball when I am using the base of the ghost ball as a focal point. I do intend to find an instructor sometime w/in the next year or so and ask some specific questions about my stance, as I feel I have neglected this area in the past.

Aaron
 

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I know one size doesn't fit all, but I like and have always used very close to CJ's pre-shot routine.
On a side note, I notice CJ doesn't seem to line up like that since he's been playing in tournaments again. Maybe he should watch his dvd a few times;). I have a hunch CJ can come ALL the way back to how he use to play if he wants it bad enough. Probably not hungry enough though. Always one of my favorite players. Johnnyt
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think this will cause you to reach across your body with your bridge arm, and maybe will put your hip in the way of your cue.

In the video linked by Ralph Kramden, Thorsten Hohmann shows one way to find a body-to-stick angle that might work better for you.

pj
chgo

PJ:

While the hip-interference-with-squared-shoulders thing may be true for a pool stance (i.e. 45-degree angle of planted foot -- right foot for right-handers, left foot for left-handers), it's definitely not true for a snooker stance.

In a snooker stance, as many of your body's joints are pointed INTO the shot as possible. This includes the hips, knees, feet, and squaring the shoulders so that the head/face itself is square to the shot (i.e. both eyes equidistant to the shot, not angled in one direction or the other). The foot on the grip-hand side of the body (right foot for right-handers, left foot for left-handers) is placed right on top of the shot line, pointed into the shot with no angle whatsoever. The other foot is usually placed at shoulder's width away, sometimes about one-half foot's length in front (basically that foot is parallel to, or just slightly ahead of the planted foot).

Without getting into a further detailed description of how the snooker stance works, world-renowned snooker coach Del Hill's video on this topic is quite helpful:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gSK4w_9S_x0

While a snooker stance is certainly not a one-size-fits-all solution for pool, what I personally like about it is its consistency in relation to the topic of this thread ("lining up") -- every part of the body is in the same spot in relation to the shot, every time, without variance. And you don't have this "body-facing-one-way-but-cue-angled-across -the-body-into-a-slightly-different-direction" thing as in a pool stance. In a pool stance, the hips can be turned slightly more, or slightly less; the head can be angled slightly more, or slightly less, as it's positioned over the cue; the grip hand's arm can vary in distance away from the body/hips a bit (depending on the aforementioned variance in hip/face angle), etc. These variables in the pool stance give rise to slight variations in how the head/eyes "see" the shot -- the same shot may not be seen the same way every time if the various components of the stance aren't positioned and angled exactly the same way every time. While not a "killer" in many instances, the problem is exacerbated with distance -- you won't see any top-flight players adopting a pool stance on a 12-foot snooker table.

But, at the same time, these variances/variables in the pool stance *do* open up opportunities for certain folks to capitalize on by offering a head/eye placement system for a price. ;)

-Sean
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...the hip-interference-with-squared-shoulders thing may be true for a pool stance (i.e. 45-degree angle of planted foot -- right foot for right-handers, left foot for left-handers), it's definitely not true for a snooker stance.

I think it's the squaring of the hips that would interfere with the cue, and I think snooker players just make another tradeoff in order to avoid that.

Pool players place their outside foot forward to swivel their hip out of the way of the cue, while snooker players lean their hip away from the cue. This is shown by the more pronounced bend in the outside leg and the visible leaning angle of the straight inside leg.

I agree that having fixed checkpoints for the angle of your body with the cue is desirable, but I'm not convinced that the snooker stance does a better job of that than the pool stance can. I also suspect that "squaring up" to the shot as much as possible is not the most natural stance for an effortlessly straight stroke.

pj
chgo
 

Dead Crab

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Exactly what is "square to the shot"?

Line between shoulders perpendicular to aim line?

Parallel to aim line?

Something else?
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
Exactly what is "square to the shot"?

Line between shoulders perpendicular to aim line?

Parallel to aim line?

Something else?

Dead Crab:

Choice #2 -- "Line between shoulders perpendicular to aim line" -- although this one is not an absolute, since one does have to reach over with the bridge hand, and this tends to pull that shoulder forward just a bit.

-Sean
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think it's the squaring of the hips that would interfere with the cue, and I think snooker players just make another tradeoff in order to avoid that.

Pool players place their outside foot forward to swivel their hip out of the way of the cue, while snooker players lean their hip away from the cue. This is shown by the more pronounced bend in the outside leg and the visible leaning angle of the straight inside leg.

I agree that having fixed checkpoints for the angle of your body with the cue is desirable, but I'm not convinced that the snooker stance does a better job of that than the pool stance can. I also suspect that "squaring up" to the shot as much as possible is not the most natural stance for an effortlessly straight stroke.

pj
chgo

PJ:

Actually, that hip (on that side of the body) is not "leaning away" at all. Rather, what is happening is that the most of the weight is placed on that leg. If anything, the player is leaning ON that leg, not away from it. The bend in the other (outside) leg occurs naturally, since less weight in placed upon it.

It's true, though, that this whole thing is an issue of checks and balances. Pool players tend to think their stance is more "natural" (with the admittance that some accuracy is traded off for comfort), while the snooker players tend to think their stance is more accurate through regimentation/standardization ("comfort" comes later, after the player completely commits the checkpoints of a snooker stance to muscle memory).

Great discussion!
-Sean
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Sean:
Actually, that hip (on that side of the body) is not "leaning away" at all.

I don't see how this is possible. If the rear foot is directly under the stick and the hip does not lean away at all (i.e., it's directly over the foot), then the hip is where the stick needs to be.

This is why I say that both snooker players and pool players must make some accommodation to get the hip out of the way of the stick - either a swivel (pool stance) or a lean (snooker stance).

The bend in the other (outside) leg occurs naturally, since less weight in placed upon it.

The leg can't bend without dropping the hip on that side. One reason that would happen is if the hips are leaned away from the stick.

pj
chgo
 
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sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
I don't see how this is possible. If the rear foot is directly under the stick and the hip does not lean away at all (i.e., it's directly over the foot), then the hip is where the stick needs to be.

This is why I say that both snooker players and pool players must make some accommodation to get the hip out of the way of the stick - either a swivel (pool stance) or a lean (snooker stance).

pj
chgo

PJ:

I don't know about you, but I don't have the hips of a female. (J/K -- <elbow nudge>, <elbow nudge> :D ).

Seriously though, placing the foot on the shot line (or perhaps slightly inside of it) doesn't bring the hip to interfere with the grip hand. When I step into (onto?) the shot line and bend over to settle into my stance (snooker, obviously), I'm placing the majority of my body weight on that leg, and my hip never comes into play as far as interfering with my grip hand. (And no, my elbow is not jutting out to compensate, either.)

To be honest, I do step slightly inside of the shot line, so that the outermost edge of my foot (the part that would strike my opponent if I were to issue a Tae Kwon Do side kick to him) is actually on the line, not the center of the foot. But this has more to do with making sure I have the correct placement for a light chest contact (one of the points in the 4-point contact), than it does to avoid hip interference with the grip hand. Honest!

Methinks the extra clearance you're referring to is not afforded by the hip "leaning away" from the grip hand, but rather that if one straightens the leg and places the majority of the weight on it, the hip tends to "seat" and straighten out. There's no longer any "bump" there that the grip hand can crash into. That's probably what's causing the confusion.

What think ye?
-Sean

P.S.: there's a Steve Davis snooker fundamentals video series out there, one installment of which shows how the hip lines up during a snooker stance -- with the primary foot planted on the shot line. I don't have access to that URL at the moment, but I can dig it up later if you like and post it here?
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
If you want to fast-track the experience, just open up a CTE thread :thumbup: !!!

Maniac

That's right! With a CTE thread, there's no "thinking" it's going to explode at all. It just happens. BOOOOMMMMM!!

:D

-Sean
 

stumpie71

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I use a hybrid snooker/ pool stance. I never have had a problem with my hips on any other part of my body getting in the way. However when I tried to go to a more traditional pool stance my hip and side would get in the way because I was not able to position my eyes/ head in a way to properly visualize the shot. I would catch myself either pulling my arm or adjusting my torso and playing havoc with everything else. It was horrible. Have spent the better part of a year trying to get back to where I was.
 

sfleinen

14.1 & One Pocket Addict
Gold Member
Silver Member
I use a hybrid snooker/ pool stance. I never have had a problem with my hips on any other part of my body getting in the way. However when I tried to go to a more traditional pool stance my hip and side would get in the way because I was not able to position my eyes/ head in a way to properly visualize the shot. I would catch myself either pulling my arm or adjusting my torso and playing havoc with everything else. It was horrible. Have spent the better part of a year trying to get back to where I was.

stumpie71:

When you say you've "spent the better part of a year trying to get back to where you were," do you mean back to a hybrid snooker/pool stance, or to the more traditional pool stance you mentioned you tried?

I know what you mean about difficulties with the pool stance not being conducive to putting the head/eyes square on the shot (at least in comparison to the snooker stance). I find that the pool stance's tendency to angle my head over the cue (i.e. as a right-hander, it tilts my face slightly to the right -- putting my left eye slightly forward of the right eye, causing shot visualization problems [at least from the notion of having always viewed that same shot square-on in a snooker stance]). I find that I have to crane my neck to square my face over the cue onto the shot. I'm sure I'd ultimately get used to it with lots of practice, but then the question of "why" pops up? If I had a strongly dominant left eye (Ralf Souquet is a good example), it'd work well, but I don't -- my eyes are more or less equal.

Anyway, I hope you work it out, and find a comfortable stance that gives you the correct shot visualization for your eyes.

-Sean
 
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