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The "V"
- Thread starter SpiderWebComm
- Start date
ROFL ... Some guys just have 'V'agina on the brain, on their nose, on their mouth, on their d***.... :thumbup:
don't start in with that BS. we're guys shooting the sh*t
from what i understand it's a way of holding your cue when you're cuing. with your thumb and index finger pointed down.
a friend of mine told me about it and has been trying it out.
Holding it with the bridge hand, or the grip hand? I'm kinda curious, as lately I've taken to using a slightly different grip with my grip hand and I wonder if it could be related to this.
Or, as usual, I could be all wrong. I often am. I am married, after all.
Since this doesn't seem to be proprietary information of Lee Brett...it seems to be common knowledge in snooker...could someone provide some detail of what it is and why it helps? I'm always looking for incremental improvements and this could be helpful.
But... I thought this was a no-no:
I lost to a break and run twice . That is his bridge style.
Must've been this guy:
http://youtube.com/user/Prayingmantis72
That's how he got his "handle" -- uses that style of bridge, especially for ball-hopping shots.
-Sean
I don't know if this is Brett's thing, but it's the starting place for the way I (and I'm sure many others) teach the grip. Gripping the cue between the thumb and index finger this way, with the other three fingers held off the cue, does a couple of things:
1. It grips the cue at only two points on opposite sides of the handle (like having a horizontal hinge pin through the handle to form a "pivot point") so the cue can pivot freely during the pendulum stroke without interference from the rest of the fingers on the grip hand.
2. It puts the hand in the proper "hanging straight and loose" position so the wrist joint pivots easily along the same line as the cue and shot line without "steering" the stroke offline.
But pointing the thumb and index finger down is only the starting position - the grip is used this way at first to illustrate the hand position and how the cue should pivot between the thumb and index finger, but it's not the finished grip.
The next step is to allow the index finger to wrap lightly around to cradle the bottom of the cue so that less "pinching" pressure is used (unless needed for harder shots) - the thumb remains more or less straight down on its side of the cue, curling inward only enough to complete the loop with the index finger. The remaining three fingers are kept off the cue for some more time until the feeling of cradling the cue lightly with only the thumb and forefinger comes naturally.
Finally, the remaining three fingers are allowed to relax comfortably against the cue and even curl lightly around it, but without applying any grip pressure. All grip pressure comes only from the "pinching" of the thumb and forefinger against the sides of the cue. When done correctly, this grip develops calluses on the insides of the thumb and forefinger on opposite sides of the cue where it pivots against them.
The "v" in this method is simply the inverted "v" formed between the thumb and forefinger, made more visible by the gap left between it and the top of the cue because of the loose grip.
If this is what Brett teaches, it's not new or proprietary info by any means - but maybe he teaches it very well.
pj
chgo
Patrick:
An EXCELLENT synopsis! One minor thing that I want to add, and it may be peculiar to the snooker "version" of this grip, is that there's no gap between the top surface of the cue, and the "web of skin" that joins the thumb to the index finger. While the idea of a "pin bolted horizontally through the cue" (where those two contact points you mentioned exist because of the side-to-side pinch between the thumb and index finger) gives the impression of a "hinge", the top surface of the cue against the webbing between the index finger and thumb anchors the cue against the upper-most surface of the hand, closest to the wrist, to minimize the chance of sideways "sway" when a loose wrist action is applied. Basically, it removes some of the sideways sloppiness that occurs with a loose wrist, because remember, the human wrist isn't built like a perfect hinge. (In fact, quite the opposite -- the wrist's most mobile direction of movement is sideways in relation to the cue, not inline with the travel of the cue. That is, you can much more easily bend your wrist into/away-from the direction that your palm faces; the side-to-side "hello" motion is not the wrist's natural direction of movement.)
If you watch Ronnie O'Sullivan's grip in this video carefully, you'll see there's no gap or "air" between the top of the cue and the webbing that joins his index finger with his thumb:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Aj3yL8QFoLs
Oftentimes, snooker players will adopt what's called a "rear-fingered" (or "back-handed") grip -- that is, cradling the cue in the back fingers (middle/ring/pinkie), and the index/thumb just point straight down, or else lightly curl (but don't touch) the under surfaces of the cue. The webbing between the index/thumb acts as the "hinge" that the top of the cue "rolls" on.
Ronnie demonstrates this rear-fingered grip that he uses when playing with a pool cue, in this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=W2Ye61WiLMk
Hope this is helpful,
-Sean
P.S.: I personally use the "pinch" grip you detail as described, Patrick, when I'm doing "touch" type shots. But when I need to really apply power with accuracy, I scrunch that cue up against that webbing, and it really helps to anchor the cue from sideways "flop" when snapping the wrist.
TAP TAP....I agree...the V grip/cradle is a great and very useful technique....
I haven't had a lesson with Lee Brett or anything but it looks like the V he uses has a gap between the web of the thumb and forefinger and the cue. I tried immitating it and it seemed to be very accurate. Although I had a hard time keeping my hand tension free. I believe Johnny Archer also uses a grip similar to this.
See video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foOp1ge-UwY&NR=1
See video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foOp1ge-UwY&NR=1
mnShooter:
Nice input, and great example. It looks as though Lee uses more of a "shoveling" type of stroke (i.e. pushing the cue like a shovel handle, and dropping his elbow to the point where his forearm almost meets the top surface of the cue). Obviously, you'd need a gap between the top of the cue and the webbing that joins the thumb and index finger to allow the arm to "fold down onto" the top of the cue like that.
It's definitely not the standard technique taught in snooker or pool schools, though, that's for sure. Not to say it's bad -- he's obviously very accurate -- but the accurate repeatability of this type of stroke tends to be something very personal to him.
-Sean
I will take a shot here....I have studied the grip as I think in pool it is almost as big of importance as in Golf....4 out of 5 Pro Golfers will tell you that the most important fundamental of Golf is "The Grip"
IMO the Pool grip falls into the same realm of what (in Golf) is called a "neutral" grip....The neutral grip in Golf actually uses both hands but it would apply to the grip hand (in pool) as well...(again IMO)
If you stand normal with your arms hanging down at your side, your hands do not face each other, nor do they hang facing straight back....They hang at a slight angle to your body......This is the "natural" hanging position that your hands will always return to...Any other position is a "forced" position...
If you grip your Golf club with a "neutral" grip the hands on your grip at impact will be in a more natural position and you will gain more consistency through impact....A grip that is "not" neutral will end up with at least one hand off of the normal rotation and you will end up having to force the hands into the correct position at impact...(hard to do consistently)
Intererestingly the "V" is also used in Golf as a grip alingment aid....There is some debate to this, but the "V" that is formed (by both hands) between the thumb and first finger in the golf grip should point to your "right eye".....some say to the nose...The main key is that they both point in the same direction....
I play golf right handed but play pool left handed........For me I grip the Golf club the exact same way with my left hand as I do to grip a Pool cue.....I use the last three fingers to grip the cue....My middle finger actually has the most contact with the cue....(and acts as the pendulum as Patrick suggested with the first finger and thumb)
The first finger and thumb of my left hand really don't do anything at all...I could have them both chopped off and still swing a Golf Club and Stroke a Pool cue.
The other reason I use the last three fingers is becuase just like in Golf it is the set of tendons that allow you to hold something firmly or lightly and still have free natural motion in your wrist. Your hand uses two indepentent groups of tendons....One is the pincher...first finger and thumb....the other is the last three fingers.....If you pinch your first finger and thumb together it creates tension in your wrist...the only way to relive the tension in your wrist (so it can move freely) is to relaxe the first finger and thumb....(try it by pinching your finger and thumb together and you will notice the tension in your wrist.
The last three or "golf" grip also puts the fulcrum of the cue directly in line with the middle of the wrist....Gripping the cue with the first finger and thumb puts the fulcrum in front of your wrist "off angle".....Basically if you go straight down the top of your arm....it goes to the "middle" finger. As it applies to the pool stroke...The first finger and thumb is out in front.
So for those of your that are Golfers....If you have a "correct" (Vardon Style) Golf grip....Take that same golf grip on your pool cue and then pull it up into a stroking stance...you will have a "neutral" pool grip.:wink:
I am 100% confident in this grip method....and the "V" method gets you to that "neutral" position....(weather the origonal teacher knew it or not)
Actually, when teaching this grip I overstate the "gap" purposely to emphasize that the thumb and forefinger shouldn't hold the cue tightly up against the webbing. In fact, there's no visible opening there in my own grip, but I like it to feel that way - it's what gives the impression of a "v" there.
You and I may disagree (that's OK) about how loosely the cue should be gripped - I think that pressing it into the "v" tends to tighten the wrist up, which tends to steer the stroke (almost the opposite of what you suggest).
pj
chgo
Alex Higgins
Lee Brett asked me to post this video in this thread to honor Alex Higgins.
You can watch the video about Alex Higgins by clicking here.
Lee Brett asked me to post this video in this thread to honor Alex Higgins.
You can watch the video about Alex Higgins by clicking here.