One Dollar

Before snooker became the big time - thanks to colourful characters, in both attitude and dress, such as Alex Higgins, to fill the colour TV schedule - prize money for even the most prestigious tournaments was miniscule.
Champions used tournament success to attract paying customers to exhibitions.

And the public will pay to see trick shots and other gimmick presentation.

Players will pay to see the best, but they don't react kindly to being forced to support the 'could be' or the 'might have been'.

People who want to turn 'professional' but find the money in pool unsatisfactory, should take up a more lucrative sport/game. For example, race walking. :D
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
...
Here is the Valley of the Sun almost ever Bar, or sports Bars with a Pool Tables, and almost ever Pool Room sell Budweiser Beer, from Anheuser-Busch.

Don't see the Anheuser-Busch Distributor supporting Pool in the Valley.
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Lots of people purchase Anheuser-Busch's products.

What makes you/ pool think pro players deserve any $ from it??
 
Holly said:
Thanks Jennie for starting this thread. This is a very important topic.

Although CSI has not emphasized this enough in the past year since CSI launched the USA Pool League, but a portion of the money that goes to CSI for the USAPL is put aside as a pro pool fund. We put aside $.50 per player per week from the CSI portion of the league funds exclusively to go into pro pool.

Mark Griffin recognized, as many of us have, that in order for pro pool in the U.S. to strengthen, it requires having an organizational infrastructure from the amateur side in order to build a base. Mark is someone who thinks much about the future and is a person of action so CSI launched the USAPL nationally approximately a year ago.

CSI took a well tested regional system to the national level. The USAPL system before going national logged 2.4 million matches. 50% of all weekly league money collected is held in escrow by CSI in order to give back as prize money on the local level. This in addition to the $.50 CSI puts aside out of it's own portion for pro pool. The USAPL is not a franchise, CSI is more hands on and oversees the USAPL nationally. We grant protected territories to USAPL league managers and have a solid infrastructure for the USAPL in place. The "Fairplay" handicap system is terrific in that it is simple to use and addresses many of the issues that cause and encourage sandbagging. The handicap goes from 40-125 and a player's handicap can fluctuate weekly up to a few points thus tracking a person's real progress based on their play. Only makable shots not pocketed are counted as missed. Safeties are not equated in the handicap calculation.

A very important aspect of the USAPL is that there are three tiers of teams (300, 400 and 500 team handicap groups). A team does not have to break up as the players progress in their game. The USAPL encourages individual growth AND growth of the sport in the U.S overall.

The USAPL is growing all over the country, with new leagues forming weekly. It is also a great opportunity for those interested in building a full time career developing a league in a geographical region.

So far we have leagues being established and taking root in the following locations:

Columbus, Ohio
Kansas City, MO
Las Vegas, NV
Grants Pass, OR
Piedmont, NC
Birmingham, AL
Indianapolis, IN
Oklahoma City, OK
Tampa, FL
Central / Orlando Area, FL
Detroit, MI
Capital District (Schenectady area), NY

Am I pluggin the USAPL...you bet I am. Not just because I work for CSI, but I honestly believe it is a truly wonderful system and has tremendous potential to be a bridge between the league side and the pro side in a more encompasing way. It is also a job / career opportunity. Will a person right off the bat be able to leave their day job or make a person rich :) no, but putting in the time to grow the league can turn into a full time career doing what you love and for all the right reasons and in ways that also benefit the sport on multiple levels.

It is important that we care. My mother always said leave a place better than you found it. When I was a kid, I thought she meant the kitchen :) as I got older I realized she meant our world. Kind of a cool way to look at life eh? CSI has that same philisophy and it is what we work at every day.

For more information about the USAPL or if interested in more details about developing your own USAPL territory and league, please contact Mark Estes at CSI (marke@playcsipool.com) or call 702-719-7665.

Or you can PM me here at the AZBforums with your contact information and I'll pass it to Mark. Please leave me your name, phone, email and state / region you reside.

All the best,
Holly
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I was hoping somebody from your camp would chime in, Holly. Thanks for contributing to this thread. :)

The 50 cents they put aside for pool, do the Vegas tournaments for pros? Is this the tournament that Brandon Shuff won last year?

I love the non-sandbagging rules. It's about damn time somebody figured how to do away with the sandbagging.

I appreciate all that you do, Holly, for all pool peeps. Tell me more about the pro involvement of your organization, please. I am interested in this and would like to learn more. I'm out of the loop here on the East Coast and may not understand fully what's going on in the pool world today as far as what is going on behind the scenes to promote professional pool, to include everything that y'all are doing.
 
Mainplayer said:
I think ALL of us pro's should get together and write up a proposal for some of these companies. In this proposal we need to show them what WE can do for them, not what they need to do from us.
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That is not a bad idea. I wonder what would be a good corporation to target with this proposal. I'm going to gnaw on this one a bit and see if I can come up with some prospects. Thanks for the great ideas, Mike. Keep 'em coming. :)
 
UNITED WE STAND, DEVIDED WE FALL !

Well pool is already on the ground and can't get up !

It is high time all the apparently pyramid schemes that are leagues or any organization that aren't transparent enough to be transparent and show they can collect a dollar and pass it on to a UNITED fund for pool in the USA.

Be transparent and accountable, be UNITED and help the game get up off the ground and not fall down anymore !

Many people beleive those single dollars that are taken out dissappear !
Never to be found again.

I like the input I see today in this thread and Lenny's too.

My comment is base on what I hear from the regular pool fans and players.
You know , the little people. The ones that are needed so badly to right the ship. Give them what they need to know. Accountablity !
 
I would support a bonafide professional USA pool players organization in the same vein as the USGA or PGA.
 
CocoboloCowboy said:
If I have to "Splain" to you you are not as smart as I though your were.:o
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Thanks for the laugh Bruce. Based solely on posts here Walter can give you the 2 in smarts and win every time. IMO of course, but I don't think you'd like the results of a poll.

On topic, any "professional" sport that needs to be subsidized in order to survive shouldn't.

Dave
 
JAM said:
I was recently reminded about the orignial concept of the APA at its origin. One dollar was withdrawn from entry fees or tour membership (not sure) and placed in a fund for PROFESSIONAL pool.

Mike Janis of the then-Viking Tour era started the N.U.T.S. for regional tours to, again, hold back one dollar from all entry fees to be put in a fund for players to compete in professional events, e.g., U.S. Open, Skins Billiards Championship, Super Billiards Expo Pro Championship, et cetera. N.U.T.S. stood for National Unified Tour -- something or other. I can't remember. :o

My first thought is, gee, what happened to all those one dollars collected from N.U.T.S. and the APA. That's a lot of cheesenips over the years. :wink:

Have the leagues and regional tours thrown in the towel on professional pool? Some regional tours have now reconstructed their tours to cater to to amateurs.

I believe this recent trend to accommodate amateur-level competitions is the result of professional-caliber players winning the bulk of these regional tour events, due to the lack of professional competitions. The pros want to make a decent living at being, well, like the name implies, a professional pool player. :grin-square:

The existing lot of American professional players is dwindling. Aside from sponsored players like Johnny Archer and Shane Van Boening, very few can afford to travel the globe today to represent the United States. For Shane and Johnny, that's great; they're going to always be in like Flynn, especially if pool makes it to the Olympics.

Charlie Williams and the Dragon crew seem to be doing okay, and AzBilliards has graciously created the professional player fund. Is this enough to help the American pool constituency be alive and well? I do applaud everybody's efforts for sure.

Is this one-dollar tax a viable platform to promote professional pool? Any other ideas?
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If Larry Hubbard and Terry Bell had followed through on that concept and simply taken .25cts per player per week then the APA would own professional pool today, there would be a steady tour, and plenty of amateurs trying to get in.

The concept is very simple and it's worked for millions of years. The broader the base the higher the top can be.

In every human endeavor people strive to be the best at it, they compete and judge each other. Sometimes that manifests into entertainment for other people who enjoy watching that competition and involving themselves in the outcome vicariously.

The very fact that on AZB there is always so much discussion surrounding "the pros" and what they are doing shows that there is some fan base out there.

Now we know that mass public interest is practically non-existent. But is this because they really aren't interested or just a lack of exposure? When Kelly Fisher goes out she is asked for autographs and she hasn't been on TV nearly as much as Allison.

Amateur leagues thrive when pool is popular. We already know that a good movie can push pool's popularity. So why can't a steady diet of top shelf pool coupled with some halfway decent production maintain and possibly grow pool's popularity? So the obvious benefit to having a professional tour is that pool can grow through more exposure.

That growth translates into a healthy billiards industry. Which in turn allows the industry to then further support a professional tour.

The benefit to the amateur player is huge when there is a pro tour. Having a dedicated number of top level professional players who are committed to maintaining their tour and growing their fan base collectively and personally means that there will be a lot more contact, more exhibitions, more charity appearances, more clinics, more pro-ams, in short more great pool for the amateur to be involved in.

Here's a thought for example;

The Pro Tour is coming to your city. 20 pros have made themselves available to "sub" on league night. A raffle is conducted and the the pro names are drawn according to their current ranking as to which teams they will "sub" on that week. How cool would it be if on league night Johnny Archer shows up to hang out with your team and play a match with you? What sort of great feelings would that generate? Multiply that by 20 and tell me that the amateurs who got to have that wouldn't be talking about it and looking forward to the next time eagerly?

Now tell me that such an activity wouldn't generate a bunch of ticket sales for the Pro event?

The ideas are endless. But they all require two things, capital and human investment. Without those two things working smoothly nothing will happen.

Pool is sadly very fragmented, very selfish, and very shortsighted. I personally do not see it changing any time soon. In the near term it requires a LOT of work and the return on investment is too far away for most people to handle. To be sure there are pockets of brightness but the reality is that professional pool is forest with little edible fruit.

.25cts a week per player would go a long way towards cultivating something sustainable that can grow strong.
 
I personally wouldn't have a problem giving $1 to help a pro tour. It would be great if all the amateur leagues could help sponsor it. However the pros need to help the game first. About 12 or 13 years ago the US Open was held along side an APA tournament at the Va Beach pavilion. Very few pros had any involvement with the amateurs and several would stand around and loudly joke about these players. There was a complete disconnect with the amateur tournament and it's players. For a tour to be successful you need more involvement from the recreational player than the hardcore player. With the pros showing an interest with the amateur players in some way.
Just read the post about how people feel about these players and the leagues (APA mainly). I'm not trying to defend the APA or any handicapped amateur league. But these players are the ones needed to grow the sport and make a tour possible. At one time it was estimated that over 30 million people will play pool in the US every year. How do you get a good portion of these people involved and interested in pro pool ? It's hard to ask for money from a person while bashing them. I know it's a rant but it's my opinion and sorry for making it as long as I did.
 
bfdlad said:
OK, I am shocked that nobody seems to have suggested a different way to do this. I am a little old fashioned as far as the pros go and I feel that aspiring pro should pay their dues and not just be handed $$ to go to events. If a person wants to be a pro golfer, tennis, footballer etc, they have to pay their own $$ for Coaching, lessons, travel to get on the map. Why should pro pool be any different?? Earn your right to play as a pro and go through the ranks.

As far as the Dollar fund to promote pool and get the pro tour more visible and give more people a chance I think you just need to hold more tourneys. With $250k thats at least 5 good events. This will give people a chance to make a living and compete on a regular basis. All just my opinion.
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Jennie is not suggesting that "pros" be handed money out a central pool to go to events. She is suggesting as many others have that it would be good to have a broad base contributing to funding a viable pro tour so that there are events to go to.

As for Golf and any other sport, those players trying to make their way on or onto the pro tour are out hustling for sponsors to "give" them money. Golf and Tennis both have "backers" who invest in the players and get a percentage of the winnings back.

In just about any sport the participants ask for and often get donations and sponsorships to fund their participation. And this is from little league to the big leagues.

The whole point of having a consistent pro tour is to establish a list of professional players, rank them and have rules to govern their play. Then there is SOMETHING for amateurs to climb towards. Then there can be a solid path from the amateur/league ranks into professional pool.

The IPT had the right idea. Unfortunately it had the wrong man funding the idea. If it had survived then the professional landscape would look very different today. It is my opinion that the leagues should take another look at the IPT's concept, scale it down, provide consistent funding and run with it.

If that were to happen then you can bet that a lot of people would be earning their spot.
 
A dollar

poolsnark said:
I've never understood the concept that amateur pool should somehow subsidize the pros. Pro pool brings zero value to the amateur ranks. Why exactly should amateurs be willing to throw even a single dollar at pro tours or pro events? Where is the value proposition?

As far as I'm concerned, the dollar that "every amateur poolplayer in America wastes on something stupid" is better spent on that frivolity than supporting a bunch of pro players who don't give anything back to the game. The outward attitude of the vast majority of pro players is "pay me because I'm a pro". There are a few exceptions to this of course, but if pro players aren't going to do anything to raise awareness and bring more interest to pool, why should amateurs spend one red cent helping to build a pro tour? Enlighten me.
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The value should be 'inspiration' if nothing else. What about the good role models that some pros are? If you are willing to spend $20-25 dollars to watch a TAR match, or spend a few bucks at the local Pool room, why, in the world, would you bulk at spending a single damn dollar to help support the pros. It is worth more than that, to me, to watch our top pros compete against the Filapinos in the Phillipines, or the Taiwanese.

Gee, Tom Brady gets a $19 million dollar contract a year, or about 1 million a football game, and you won't spend a damn dollar for pros in OUR sport?
 
Other's surely know this betteer than I do. Frankly, professional pool needs to find a venue. Is it TV, medium size halls, live streaming, large conference rooms, etc. Then it needs to adapt the games. This has been true through out pool history. It is the venue that determines money, sponsership, fame, etc.

Then pool needs to break the cheating rep. I love working an angle, getting a game, robbing a guy of his entire wallet, etc too, but tournament pool needs to break this for popularity. A pro cannot throw a tournament and split with the winner, plus bet on the side, etc. This kind of thing cannot happen. Like golf, the off time play, betting, etc cannot interfere with the tournament play. No cheating. Cheaters banned.

Pool needs to define winning. How can both players shoot in almost every 9 ball game? Really? People expect a guy to rip off 5 runs in a row. You have to be unquestionably better than the guy watching.

If you break this, we will watch, pay to watch, buy what the pros use, etc. BTW, it would be nice to see pros shoot with the best cues! They also need to get over the millions ESPN, sponsers and others will make on their hard work. Ask a hockey player. You can get paid well. You cannot expect to get half of the gate for a win.

Last, how does a dollar from me help? Put an event near me with solid players, incredible play and I will give you $75 for a good seat and some kind of a pit pass! Put me within 20 feet of the table and encourage the players to talk and I will give you $100!
 
Mainplayer said:
I think ALL of us pro's should get together and write up
a proposal for some of these companies. In this proposal we need to show them what
WE can do for them, not what they need to do from us.
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Mike, I came across this picture on the Internet of you. I think it's another good photo
for avatar consideration. :D

Though the one you have now is cool, too. :wink:

BTW, I remember meeting you and some Russian player at a Joss event many moons
ago. I can't remember what his name was, but I think you and he were traveling together.
 

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DaveK said:
Thanks for the laugh Bruce. Based solely on posts here Walter can give you the 2 in smarts and win every time. IMO of course, but I don't think you'd like the results of a poll.

On topic, any "professional" sport that needs to be subsidized in order to survive shouldn't.

Dave
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Thank y'all from the South!

I am sure, like totally!
:deadhorse:
 
JAM said:
Mike, I came across this picture on the Internet of you. I think it's another good photo
for avatar consideration. :D

Though the one you have now is cool, too. :wink:

BTW, I remember meeting you and some Russian player at a Joss event many moons
ago. I can't remember what his name was, but I think you and he were traveling together.
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Jennie,

His name is Ivo and plays at a mid to high A level.

Koop
 
Koop said:
Jennie,

His name is Ivo and plays at a mid to high A level.

Koop
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Ah, that sounds right. He's actually kind of cute. I remember how well he did play, now that you mention it. Funny thing was that he was pulling for Mike D. in the tournament, as they traveled together, but I think he went further in the charts for that event.

I might even have a picture of him. If I do, I'll at least be able to put a name to it now. Thanks! :)
 
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