Can a poolroom make it without liquor nowdays?

[macguy]

I will not sell alcohol and have not sought a license. Ruins tables and atmosphere and I will not promote that particular addiction.

I am sorry to say if you dropped dead tomorrow your family has little to sell as an asset other then some pool tables and a little good will for what ever that is worth. I am afraid you missed my point. It is an investment even if you don't choose to sell beer. You have something of value beyond a bunch of old tables and a business that only you are willing to kill yourself working at for nothing. I am sorry, it isn't even debatable.

 

[h2o4170]

I am sorry to say if you dropped dead tomorrow your family has little to sell as an asset other then some pool tables and a little good will for what ever that is worth. I am afraid you missed my point. It is an investment even if you don't choose to sell beer. You have something of value beyond a bunch of old tables and a business that only you are willing to kill yourself working at for nothing. I am sorry, it isn't even debatable.

I agree its a huge asset.Im not planning on opening another roomhopefully im retiered. I asked becuase the room I frequent owned by a friend has a deccent menu.Good sandwiches,great wings,best fries around but its dead like everything in FL this time of year.They sell beer and wine but most rooms ive been to in FL that have a full bar seem to be doing the most buisnes.They have a beautiful room (ultimate-billiards.com) its just slow.Where I grew up we had 40 some tables they had a fountain soda machine a coffee machine for .25 and a half empty chip rack.On Fri and Sat nites they would have 30 names on the waiting list. With the rents and electric as high as it is(12,000 sqr foot room the ac bill was 4 grand last month) its hard to make it on time or even beer.

 

[dirtydog48]

It is interesting

How everyone seems to support the thought that alcohol is absolutely necessary to be successful. That has not been my experience. Added insurance, employees, and increased maintenance greatly offsets any increased assets in my mind. One room in this area comes to mind..They were hugely successful with no alcohol. They had about 16 tables and waiters most every night. Run by husband and wife. The husb decided he had to have booze and moved the tables a few blocks down the street to a facility with a bar. In about a year, the wife was gone and about a year after that so was the business along with a few months receipts carried off with the bimbo entrusted to pay the bills.
I agree, it is not even debatable.

I am sorry to say if you dropped dead tomorrow your family has little to sell as an asset other then some pool tables and a little good will for what ever that is worth. I am afraid you missed my point. It is an investment even if you don't choose to sell beer. You have something of value beyond a bunch of old tables and a business that only you are willing to kill yourself working at for nothing. I am sorry, it isn't even debatable.

 

[m79a]

Our local room is really struggling to get by. We live in a dry county. It's hard to get by on pool alone around here. Got to run a card game or poker machines to make anything.

 

[CrownCityCorey]

Where I grew up in MI the poolrooms didnt sell beer or booze,I think it was a law back then.Nowdays in FL it seems without full liqour they realy have a hard time making the nut.Is there enough money in pool to pay the rent.

Hard Times in Bellflower, Ca has made it 22 years and still going w/out alcohol. Limited menu, and limited pro-shop as well. Just pool...

 

[realkingcobra]

How everyone seems to support the thought that alcohol is absolutely necessary to be successful. That has not been my experience. Added insurance, employees, and increased maintenance greatly offsets any increased assets in my mind. One room in this area comes to mind..They were hugely successful with no alcohol. They had about 16 tables and waiters most every night. Run by husband and wife. The husb decided he had to have booze and moved the tables a few blocks down the street to a facility with a bar. In about a year, the wife was gone and about a year after that so was the business along with a few months receipts carried off with the bimbo entrusted to pay the bills.
I agree, it is not even debatable.

That can happen in businesses that produce millions of dollars a year too, that's a management problem...not a lack of customer basis. When I was 20yrs old, I drank Dr. Pepper...when I turned 21...I drank screwdrivers. And believe it or not, when I use to go out and play pool for money all the time...the last thing I wanted around me...was a bunch of kids playing pool. You'll get one or the other...minors or adults...but you won't get both at the same time trust me...as adults have much better things to do than be around a bunch of kids on a Fri or Sat night...just to be able to play some pool. I'm not saying you won't have some carry over mix of ages, but on average...if kids come in most of the time...you won't have adults...most of the time

 

[realkingcobra]

Hard Times in Bellflower, Ca has made it 22 years and still going w/out alcohol. Limited menu, and limited pro-shop as well. Just pool...

I forgot..how long was Comet Billiards in New Jersey in business...before they closed the doors...because table time didn't cover the bills anymore? Believe it or not, there IS a breaking point as to how much people will pay to play pool at a pool room...alcohol free...and that breaking point is the cost of doing business.

I always say...pool rooms don't go out of business...they just don't do enough to stay IN business as the business plan that worked 22 years ago, 10 years ago...and last year...may NOT be the business plan that you need for next year...because customers are starting to expect MORE for their entertainment dollars...not less

Glen

 

[h2o4170]

I forgot..how long was Comet Billiards in New Jersey in business...before they closed the doors...because table time didn't cover the bills anymore? Believe it or not, there IS a breaking point as to how much people will pay to play pool at a pool room...alcohol free...and that breaking point is the cost of doing business.

I always say...pool rooms don't go out of business...they just don't do enough to stay IN business as the business plan that worked 22 years ago, 10 years ago...and last year...may NOT be the business plan that you need for next year...because customers are starting to expect MORE for their entertainment dollars...not less

Glen

Absolutley !Table time has only gone up a couple bucks since the 800s.I wish the same could be said about rent,electric, ect. I dont see a room making it without a full liquor bar anymore.Beer and wine doesnt seem to do it.Unfortunatly then ur a bar owner not a poolroom owner.Your a bar owner with pool tables

 

[DelaWho???]

I like the idea of putting a package store adjacent to the pool room. Let the bulk liquor sales keep the lights on and the pool room running. Then you have the option to serve drinks in the pool room if you choose. A lot more people will stop in and buy a 6 pack than will stop in and play pool.

You can generate revenue from the liquor sales and keep the pool room separate if you so choose.

 

[macguy]

I will not sell alcohol and have not sought a license. Ruins tables and atmosphere and I will not promote that particular addiction.

No one is talking about the morality for it just the business aspect. If that is the case you probably should not be in the pool room business. Do you allow gambling?

 

[conetip]

If you are not attracting the clientel you are not in buisness.
Tonight the local room was with all tables occuppied, 17 tables and about 30 people there.
At $6 per hour , that does not cut it.Who knows during the early afternoon what buisness they do at that time.
They need secondary sales to make ends meet.
It has to be neat clean tidy and tables and equipment needs to be maintained.
Apearance has a big influence on clientel.
Not an easy way to make a living.

 

[dirtydog48]

Morality

No one is talking about the morality for it just the business aspect. If that is the case you probably should not be in the pool room business. Do you allow gambling?

has nothing to do with it. The fact that I and several of my clientele are recovering alcoholics might. We gamble or gambol if you prefer. No more or less than any golf course or office pool.
The fact is that I am in the pool business. Don't should on me and I will not should on you.

 

[Masayoshi]

No one is talking about the morality for it just the business aspect. If that is the case you probably should not be in the pool room business. Do you allow gambling?

You are telling a guy that is allegedly a successful room owner to quit because he has a moral aversion to providing a service that may or may not make him money? Wow...You might as well tell players that they should dump their backers and go worship Kevin Trudeau and Bernie Madoff...

 

[macguy]

You are telling a guy that is allegedly a successful room owner to quit because he has a moral aversion to providing a service that may or may not make him money? Wow...You might as well tell players that they should dump their backers and go worship Kevin Trudeau and Bernie Madoff...

No, he wants to change the subject to a moral issue. My guess is he can't get a license and is rationalizing his situation because he has no choice. My comment that he should get the license even if he doesn't sell the first beer is a valid one from a business and investment stand point. He could be able to get one now but possibly not be able in the future due to a zoning change of what ever. Why would you not want your investment to be worth many more times then what it is? And I hate to replete myself. you don't have to serve the beer. You may have to do some alterations to meet health requirements that may not now apply for just a pool room but it is worth it.

I am not blowing smoke I speak from personal experience. I bought a pool room that had been turned down for a beverage license for $25,000 pretty much the value of the equipment. The place the starving and ready to close. My intention was to try to get it back on it's feet and see what happens. My investment was small and I thought it would be fun. Not long after I bought it I learned something interesting about their rejection for their beverage license. As I pursued it I learned they had been turned down based on a false premise. What it was was they were turned down because they were too close to a church, it had to be 1000 feet. Turns out an illegal measurement had been made. The guy from the city who came out measured "as the crow flies" from front door to front door. What he should have done was measure by "legal pedestrian right of way". In other words he can't just J-walk across the street to measure but had to go to the nearest legal cross walk or intersection. Not only was it not less the the 1000 feet, it was legally almost half a mile from the church.


Within a few months I had a bar in the place and it really took off. By the end of first year I netted almost $100,000 and it went up from there. The place remained though entirely a pool room not a bar. The difference was table and bar tabs of $80 or $90 instead of $15.00 in table time and a couple of cokes only to have them leave go down the street to a pub to finish the night and have a few beers. Now I had them for the whole night. I had the place for 7 years and including the price of the sale my $25,000 investment made me over a million dollars.

I am not telling this story to show how smart I am, I am not, it was just a fluke. I expected to move the place after I bought the equipment at the end of the lease. I tell the story because I know first hand the difference in the two business. And they are two different business make no mistake about it. It would not be for everybody. Heck just owning a pool room would not be for everybody. It is a lot of work no matter how you look at it and unless one like being a slave and working for nothing I think most would prefer the more profitable route.

The guy I bought that pool room from by the way tried to sue me claiming I had stolen his business and had information when I bought it about the illegal treatment he had gotten from the city. It never went anywhere though and I didn't hear any more about it.

 

[Masayoshi]

No, he wants to change the subject to a moral issue. My guess is he can't get a license and is rationalizing his situation because he has no choice. My comment that he should get the license even if he doesn't sell the first beer is a valid one from a business and investment stand point. He could be able to get one now but possibly not be able in the future due to a zoning change of what ever. Why would you not want your investment to be worth many more times then what it is? And I hate to replete myself. you don't have to serve the beer. You may have to do some alterations to meet health requirements that may not now apply for just a pool room but it is worth it.

I am not blowing smoke I speak from personal experience. I bought a pool room that had been turned down for a beverage license for $25,000 pretty much the value of the equipment. The place the starving and ready to close. My intention was to try to get it back on it's feet and see what happens. My investment was small and I thought it would be fun. Not long after I bought it I learned something interesting about their rejection for their beverage license. As I pursued it I learned they had been turned down based on a false premise. What it was was they were turned down because they were too close to a church, it had to be 1000 feet. Turns out an illegal measurement had been made. The guy from the city who came out measured "as the crow flies" from front door to front door. What he should have done was measure by "legal pedestrian right of way". In other words he can't just J-walk across the street to measure but had to go to the nearest legal cross walk or intersection. Not only was it not less the the 1000 feet, it was legally almost half a mile from the church.


Within a few months I had a bar in the place and it really took off. By the end of first year I netted almost $100,000 and it went up from there. The place remained though entirely a pool room not a bar. The difference was table and bar tabs of $80 or $90 instead of $15.00 in table time and a couple of cokes only to have them leave go down the street to a pub to finish the night and have a few beers. Now I had them for the whole night. I had the place for 7 years and with the including the price of the sale my $25,000 investment made me over a million dollars.

I am not telling this story to show how smart I am, I am not, it was just a fluke. I expected to move the place after I bought the equipment at the end of the lease. I tell the story because I know first hand the difference in the two business. And they are two different business make no mistake about it. It would not be for everybody. Heck just owning a pool room would not be for everybody. It is a lot of work no matter how you look at it and unless one like being a slave and working for nothing I think most would prefer the more profitable route.

The guy I bought that pool room from by the way tried to sue me claiming I had stolen his business and had information when I bought it about the illegal treatment he had gotten from the city. It never went anywhere though and I didn't hear any more about it.

So now you are calling him a liar?

Frankly, it doesn't matter how much money you made off of a pool hall, what matters is the satisfaction you get from it. If the satisfaction of running a dry pool hall is greater than the profits you would earn from serving alcohol, the choice is clear. Now there is nothing inherently wrong to serving alcohol, but its just not some people's cup of tea. Telling the guy that he is full of shit and to GTFO is seriously uncalled for...

 

[macguy]

So now you are calling him a liar?

Frankly, it doesn't matter how much money you made off of a pool hall, what matters is the satisfaction you get from it. If the satisfaction of running a dry pool hall is greater than the profits you would earn from serving alcohol, the choice is clear. Now there is nothing inherently wrong to serving alcohol, but its just not some people's cup of tea. Telling the guy that he is full of shit and to GTFO is seriously uncalled for...

No, he never said he could get one and didn't. He said he didn't look into it. Whether he wants one or not he should know if he can. Like I said he can drop dead tomorrow. He needs to know what the value of his place really is should it need to be sold. Like I said, suppose he can get one today and doesn't. Then latter decides to get one only to find out now he now can't. You want it grandfathered in for you. I can respect someone wanting to run their business as they wish and not everybody wants to be in the same business. I go in successful businesses everyday I would not want as a gift.

I don't want to own a paint store or a tire shop or a card shop no matter how successful it is. I would dread everyday I had to go there. People are all different. The subject here was bar, or no bar, what it better. The answer is, with a bar is better and it is not debatable. The fact that someone doesn't want to be in that business is irrelevant to the question. In fact pointing to every pool room without a bar who hasn't gone broke is also irrelevant unless they were thriving and more pool rooms opening with the same successful formula. The fact is they aren't, they are closing one after another. The addition of a bar along with the pool may be the only thing standing between the pool room as we know it continuing or becoming extinct. This is just a fact.
And I am sorry, how much money you make is important if you want to stay open, provide jobs, provide a place to play for your customers and a comfortable income for your family. Money matters.

 

[h2o4170]

No, he never said he could get one and didn't. He said he didn't look into it. Whether he wants one or not he should know if he can. Like I said he can drop dead tomorrow. He needs to know what the value of his place really is should it need to be sold. Like I said, suppose he can get one today and doesn't. Then latter decides to get one only to find out now he now can't. You want it grandfathered in for you. I can respect someone wanting to run their business as they wish and not everybody wants to be in the same business. I go in successful businesses everyday I would not want as a gift.

I don't want to own a paint store or a tire shop or a card shop no matter how successful it is. I would dread everyday I had to go there. People are all different. The subject here was bar, or no bar, what it better. The answer is, with a bar is better and it is not debatable. The fact that someone doesn't want to be in that business is irrelevant to the question. In fact pointing to every pool room without a bar who hasn't gone broke is also irrelevant unless they were thriving and more pool rooms opening with the same successful formula. The fact is they aren't, they are closing one after another. The addition of a bar along with the pool may be the only thing standing between the pool room as we know it continuing or becoming extinct. This is just a fact.
And I am sorry, how much money you make is important if you want to stay open, provide jobs, provide a place to play for your customers and a comfortable income for your family. Money matters.

Very well said!

 

[dirtydog48]

The question was

"can a poolroom make it without liquor? Can pool pay the rent?"
Short answer is yes. One needs low rent, limited if any employees and a loyal clientele.
Alcohol is just another profit center. I made my money in the car business and one cannot make it there without multiple profit centers; new sales, used sales, parts, bodyshop and service.
The same is true here. If you want to make more money and chase a geometrically larger nut, you can add booze, cue repair, put 10k into stick inventory, sell tables, and , why not, add strippers and pole dancers?
It is just about how much aggrevation one can stand. Myself, I like small and manageable and have no need to try and impress anyone with how much money I can make. Besides that, I do not know any bar owner that would not love to sell out with or without pool tables.

 

[Masayoshi]

No, he never said he could get one and didn't. He said he didn't look into it. Whether he wants one or not he should know if he can. Like I said he can drop dead tomorrow. He needs to know what the value of his place really is should it need to be sold. Like I said, suppose he can get one today and doesn't. Then latter decides to get one only to find out now he now can't. You want it grandfathered in for you. I can respect someone wanting to run their business as they wish and not everybody wants to be in the same business. I go in successful businesses everyday I would not want as a gift.

No, he said:

I will not sell alcohol and have not sought a license.

You said:

My guess is he can't get a license and is rationalizing his situation because he has no choice.

You basically said he is lying.

I don't want to own a paint store or a tire shop or a card shop no matter how successful it is. I would dread everyday I had to go there. People are all different. The subject here was bar, or no bar, what it better.

In case you missed it, the subject is "Can a poolroom make it without liquor nowdays?" not "Which is better: bar or no bar?"

The answer is, with a bar is better and it is not debatable.

From a business standpoint, when you consider the greater liability alcohol will put on your place, not to mention the initial investment you will need to acquire a liquor license...It definitely is debatable. From a player's standpoint, I would definitely prefer a place with no alcohol. The bar is for drinking, the pool hall is for playing. From a moral standpoint, the guy and his customers are recovering alcoholics, tempting them by offering it in the place they hang out frequently to make a quick buck isn't exactly the nicest thing to do...

The fact that someone doesn't want to be in that business is irrelevant to the question. In fact pointing to every pool room without a bar who hasn't gone broke is also irrelevant unless they were thriving and more pool rooms opening with the same successful formula.

There aren't too many rooms that are thriving in the first place alcohol or not, but Hardtimes is doing pretty well compared to the other places in the area.

The fact is they aren't, they are closing one after another. The addition of a bar along with the pool may be the only thing standing between the pool room as we know it continuing or becoming extinct. This is just a fact.
And I am sorry, how much money you make is important if you want to stay open, provide jobs, provide a place to play for your customers and a comfortable income for your family. Money matters.

Only if your goal is money. If your goal is to run a business how you like, all the money in the world can't pay for doing something you don't like.

 

[cleary]

Skyline Billiards in NYC does not have liquor and they seem to get by fine.