Sardo Rack

MasterClass

MasterClass

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
If the sardo rack are no longer use in tournaments because the rack too well making the break predictable and boring.

Then why i the magic invisible paper rack thingy allowed and being used?

They look kinda cheap compared to the sardo. I always thought that the sardo rack being use in tournament looked cool.

The paper rack gets crumple easily and sometime interferes with the balls!

Why not just use the sardo and rack the 9 at the spot?

In Indonesia some players actually stick a piece of cut up poker card and stick it up in front of the one ball to tighten the rack. Not as nice as the paper rack but works just as well! why do people actually pay for that?
 
MasterClass said:
If the sardo rack are no longer use in tournaments because the rack too well making the break predictable and boring.

Then why i the magic invisible paper rack thingy allowed and being used?

They look kinda cheap compared to the sardo. I always thought that the sardo rack being use in tournament looked cool.

The paper rack gets crumple easily and sometime interferes with the balls!

Why not just use the sardo and rack the 9 at the spot?

In Indonesia some players actually stick a piece of cut up poker card and stick it up in front of the one ball to tighten the rack. Not as nice as the paper rack but works just as well! why do people actually pay for that?
Click to expand...
Magic rack is not paper and the Sardo is a pain in the ass. If you have back problems the last thing you want is a Sardo. Johnnyt
 
MasterClass said:
They look kinda cheap compared to the sardo. I always thought that the sardo rack being use in tournament looked cool.

The paper rack gets crumple easily and sometime interferes with the balls!

Why not just use the sardo and rack the 9 at the spot?
Click to expand...

The Sardo is essentially tapping the table over and over again. After a few uses, it's not racking the balls, but rather just moving them into the craters it's previously made. This then affects the roll of the balls during play.

Plus, it's big, bulky, ugly, and expensive.

The Magic Ball Rack solves all this. Clearly you don't know much about it, but I guarantee if you try it, the product will give you a pleasant surprise for its whopping $12 price tag.
 
Used both

Having used both, I'll add that a Sardo rack requires considerable setup and doesn't work well on older cloth. The Magic Rack can be used easily on any table - even if the balls have been banged into the cloth many times - and after breaking, you remove it leaving nothing behind. The Sardo, on the other hand leaves the dimples you pounded in the cloth during setup.
 
Delta and Magic Rack both have made the Sardo a white elephant. The Sardo is too bulky, and a pain to use. It is overpriced, more difficult to use and from what I have seen fragile. If balls are undersize it will give a loose rack.

The Delta does help identify undersize balls and is more durable.
 
... into the craters it's previously made. This then affects the roll of the balls during play. ...
Click to expand...
This is not a fair criticism of either the Sardo Rack or tapping the table. If a ball is going fast enough to get to the pocket, it will not be significantly affected by the craters/dimples in the cloth those racking methods create.

The craters can change where the ball settles to at the end of its roll, but this is rare and only makes a couple of mm's difference. Few players have that precision. You see the same thing on worn cloth with a normal rack and "normal" craters.
 
Bob Jewett said:
This is not a fair criticism of either the Sardo Rack or tapping the table.
Click to expand...

My words are actually chosen based on the opinion of a few tops pros whom I've discussed this subject with recently. So fair criticism or not, it's about as valid as it gets.
 
nathandumoulin said:
My words are actually chosen based on the opinion of a few tops pros whom I've discussed this subject with recently. So fair criticism or not, it's about as valid as it gets.
Click to expand...
I think you're not making sense. Top pros have been known to be horribly wrong before. Can you, yourself, demonstrate a shot in which the craters make a difference?
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you're not making sense. Top pros have been known to be horribly wrong before. Can you, yourself, demonstrate a shot in which the craters make a difference?
Click to expand...

Clearly I'm not making sense. As such, we better just completely disregard the opinions of the worlds leading experts on the subject. lol

As for whether or not I can demonstrate the effect myself....definitely. It's most obvious when playing position, when you have to roll up near another ball in the racking area. As the cue ball comes to rest, it suddenly falls into a divot, pushing up frozen against the other ball that's in an adjacent divot. Once you find yourself snookered a few times as a result of the divot left by the rack, you'll quit dismissing the opinions of those who play under such conditions for a living.

Pro's can be wrong, but normally when it comes to stuff like this, their experience far out weighs the validity of our own opinions.
 
Last edited:
nathandumoulin said:
... It's most obvious when playing position, when you have to roll up near another ball in the racking area. As the cue ball comes to rest, it suddenly falls into a divot, pushing up frozen against the other ball that's in an adjacent divot. ...
Click to expand...
Yes, as I pointed out in my original post, settling while stopping can happen. It also occurs in the rack area on worn cloth or on the spot on fairly new cloth. I think it's quite rare, especially at nine ball. Of course it will be more important to those people who have 5-mm control over their cue balls, since that's about how much movement you might get.
 
Johnnyt said:
Magic rack is not paper and the Sardo is a pain in the ass. If you have back problems the last thing you want is a Sardo. Johnnyt
Click to expand...

I thought the opposite! I had back problems. Sardo actually saved my back. I am using the M 5000 those are very light. So instead of tipping forward trying to rack balls that would put alot of strain in my back I use the sardo.

I know after sometimes especially when the balls get dirty they will no long stick to each other. But at least they do not roll out of place completely when the regular rack is removed.
 
nathandumoulin said:
The Sardo is essentially tapping the table over and over again. After a few uses, it's not racking the balls, but rather just moving them into the craters it's previously made. This then affects the roll of the balls during play.

Plus, it's big, bulky, ugly, and expensive.

The Magic Ball Rack solves all this. Clearly you don't know much about it, but I guarantee if you try it, the product will give you a pleasant surprise for its whopping $12 price tag.
Click to expand...

That is interesting. Never really thought about the crater thing.

But i find that after the break and having to remove the magic rack right after making sure not to disturb any other balls in the process is rather disruptive. I would rather use the Indonesian way.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think you're not making sense. Top pros have been known to be horribly wrong before. Can you, yourself, demonstrate a shot in which the craters make a difference?
Click to expand...

I think i agree with bob on this.

When the taiwanese came here for tourney, I saw the guy rack up the 9 balls on a brand new table and brand new cloth. He took another ball and started banging on all 9 balls! bang bang bang bang......... After that all the balls will always sit together nicely!

I suppose if it creates a very obvious crater then balls rolling towards that whole area is going to roll funny!
 
nathandumoulin said:
Clearly I'm not making sense. As such, we better just completely disregard the opinions of the worlds leading experts on the subject. lol

As for whether or not I can demonstrate the effect myself....definitely. It's most obvious when playing position, when you have to roll up near another ball in the racking area. As the cue ball comes to rest, it suddenly falls into a divot, pushing up frozen against the other ball that's in an adjacent divot. Once you find yourself snookered a few times as a result of the divot left by the rack, you'll quit dismissing the opinions of those who play under such conditions for a living.

Pro's can be wrong, but normally when it comes to stuff like this, their experience far out weighs the validity of our own opinions.
Click to expand...
since bob jewett IS one of the worlds leading authors on the behaviors of billiard balls on the table, and has been published many times, often with cumbersome mathematical details, and is known for such publications by all who seriously study the game, would you mind telling us some of your qualifications.

Specifically, have you done any controlled experiments to assess the real world implications of cloth divots?

Can you list some of the worlds leading experts on the subject that you have referenced?

I am not being facetious, I really want to know if you can disprove what he is saying as i am interested in all 3 racking options (sardo, magic, delta):

for reference, here are some of his billiard digest articles:

1992-04 Be Part of an Experiment -- cutting a ball frozen on the rail

1992-06 An Experiment in Curve -- making an object ball curve

1992-10 The Truth at Last -- results from the frozen ball experiment

1992-12 Progressive Practice -- explanations and two drills

1993-04 Close Calls -- judging hits when two object balls are close

1993-06 Close Quarters -- a system for aiming when the object ball is close

1993-08 Close Quarters II -- avoiding double hits on a near object ball

1993-10 Close Quarters III -- the rules governing close shots

1993-12 Test Time -- Questions from the BCA instructor course

1994-04 How Tough is Tough? -- calculating the difficulty of shots

1994-06 Test Time -- The Answers -- answers to the BCA quiz

1994-08 Squirt Testing -- using a tough spin shot to test squirt

1994-10 Bytes & Billiards -- billiards on the internet in 1994

1994-12 Bytes and Billiards II -- several billiard simulators described

1995-02 Pythagoras & Pool Perpendiculars -- the 90-degree rule

1995-04 Friction: Friend and Foe -- three types of table friction

1995-06 Seeking Truth of Beliefs -- several myth-destroying results

1995-08 Virtual Pool -- a review of the pool/billiard simulator

1995-10 Follow and Draw Systems -- judging the carom angle with follow and draw

1995-12 A Basic Skill Test -- measure your ability with progressive drills

1996-02 Two Interference Systems -- the 2-times- and 10-time-fuller systems

1996-04 Bad Equipment -- problems you can have with tables, balls, ...

1996-06 Chances Are -- probabilities and billiards

1996-08 Create Your Own Drills -- developing custom progressive drills

1996-10 Mirror Systems -- banking using the equal angle idea

1996-12 Handicaps -- the basic NPL system of handicapping matches

1997-02 Hidden Hanger -- shots that are much easier than they seem

1997-04 Finding the Pocket -- the effective center of the pocket

1997-06 Collective Wisdom -- excerpts from the RSB FAQ

1997-08 Those Who Can, Teach -- several teaching techniques/demos

1997-10 A Safety Dance -- playing safe on a close ball ... what's legal?

1997-12 Welcome to Masse 101 -- basic masse concepts

1998-02 Masse 102 -- masse techniques and practice

1998-03 The Right Time to Masse -- sometimes it's the right shot

1998-04 Side Spin with a Kick -- progressive practice for simple english shots

1998-05 Putting Proper Spin On It -- side spin theory and practice

1998-06 Spin It In -- does get-in english really exist?

1998-07 Complete Breakdown -- computer simulation of stick physics

1998-08 1,001 Banks -- lots of bank practice shots

1998-09 Battle of the Robots -- the Meucci and Predator cue-testing robots

1998-10 Peeling the Onion -- options during run-outs

1998-11 Hitting the Peaks -- when during the stroke to hit the cue ball

1998-12 Cut to the Chase -- follow angle system 1:4 ratio

1999-01 Making Contact -- driving a ball to a cushion

1999-02 More Spin, Less Speed -- quality of the stroke

1999-03 Progressive Progress -- more practice drills

1999-04 Freeze Frame -- Jacksonville project report

1999-05 Judgement Call -- to call or not to call fouls

1999-06 Don't Grip It and Rip It -- Jacksonville cue impact study

1999-07 To Kiss Or Not To Kiss -- finding which bank shots kiss out

1999-08 Judgement Day -- Results for the May 1999 column

1999-09 The New Frontiers -- increasing your comfort zone

1999-10 Communication Barriers -- pool vocabulary

1999-11 Systems of Aiming -- a smorgasbord of systems

1999-12 Hidden Treasures -- three diamond systems

2000-01 Tricky Business -- learning from trick shots

2000-02 Sources of Evil -- variables on the pool table

2000-03 Add It Up -- summing up sources of error

2000-04 A Rub the Right Way -- details of throw

2000-05 Practice Session 2000 -- the game of Fargo

2000-06 Systems Analysis -- details of three aiming systems

2000-07 A Rusty Game? -- straight pool discussion

2000-08 Into Focus -- Pre-shot routine and concentration

2000-09 Wales, Watching -- A report on the 2000 WPC in Wales

2000-10 Jump Shots -- useful jump shots

2000-11 Half-Ball, Revisited -- half-ball summary

2000-12 Bank Losses, Rolling Ratios -- follow and bank distance ratios

2001-01 Combinations and Throw -- how throw affects close combos

2001-02 Newton on the Ball -- George McBane guest column on 90-degree imperfections

2001-03 Weird Techniques -- strange ways to hit balls

2001-04 Three Draw Drills -- three challenging drills

2001-05 Charting the Course -- how to find follow distances geometrically

2001-06 Drawing Draw -- continued for draw and angle shots

2001-07 The Rack -- It's more than a torture device

2001-08 When Spheres Collide -- ball-ball contact and Hertz' Law

2001-09 Sliding Friction -- ball-to-bed-cloth friction measured

2001-10 Playing Games -- trying games strange to you

2001-11 Round Robin Formats -- basic round-robin charts

2001-12 Elimination Formats -- single elim, byes, seeding

2002-01 Double-Elimination Formats -- two double-elimination formats

2002-02 8-Ball Rules -- a brief history of the rules of 8-ball

2002-03 Who Wants a Spot -- calculating the odds with unequal players and spots

2002-04 Outside Assistance -- using outside english to help the angle

2002-05 9-Ball Progress -- progressive drills for nine ball

2002-06 A Challenge to Improve -- some tough proposition shots

2002-07 99 Critical Points -- problems in Ray Martin's classic book

2002-08 Squirt -- a Review -- history of squirt in billiard literature

2002-09 Squirt -- Where it Comes From -- the physical cause of squirt

2002-10 Squirt Continued -- dealing with squirt

2002-11 Chalk Marks, Cue Marks -- chalking -- a simple but important task

2002-12 An Experiment in Throw -- a test to see if throw exists

2003-01 One Thing at a Time -- implementing Bob Fancher's idea for practice

2003-02 Physics and Pool? -- is physics useful for playing billiards

2003-03 Experimental Results -- readers' new ideas about throw

2003-04 The Results Are In -- numerical results for the throw experiment

2003-05 Progressive Masse -- some drills to improve your masse

2003-06 Handicapping 14.1 -- instructions for setting up a league

2003-07 Odds and Ends -- making a ball curve, frozen rail shots, a throw demo, banks

2003-08 Bumping Balls -- moving balls precisely

2003-09 Jumping As It Should Be -- practicing jump shots

2003-10 Sharks and Scams -- petty thievery for fun and profit

2003-11 Practicing Inside Spin -- progressive drills for inside

2003-12 Practicing Outside Spin -- more progressive drills

2004-01 Thin Hits -- safeties and cut shots

2004-02 Where's Your Elbow -- Do you want to be a piston or a pendulum?

2004-03 Where's Your Elbow Now -- observations, including at the Mosconi Cup

2004-04 Not So Simple -- keeping the run simple

2004-05 Short Kicks -- using the mirror system for balls by the rail

2004-06 More Aiming Systems -- ferrule system, lights system, overlap system

2004-07 Long Kicks -- mirror system training

2004-08 Shortening Banks -- actual measurements about speed vs. angle

2004-09 Short Banks -- the 70% system for cross-side and cross-corner

2004-10 Useful Strokes -- From Wallace Ritchie to Bob Byrne

2004-11 Stroke Straightening -- making your arm move straight

2004-12 Help With Aiming -- aiming devices, including do-it-yourself

2005-01 Make Your Own -- more aiming/carom angle devices

2005-02 Frozen Bank Shots -- banking balls frozen on the cushion

2005-03 Hoppe to It -- making your own simple position system -- no english

2005-04 Do Try This At Home -- now, add side spin

2005-05 Faszinating -- amazing stop-action pictures from Austria

2005-06 By the Books -- parallel aiming through the years

2005-07 Target Pool, Revived -- Do-it-yourself practice routines

2005-08 Close Quarters -- repeat of the August 1993 column

2005-09 Taking A Lesson -- various aspects of taking and giving lessons

2005-10 Different Strokes -- a catalog of strokes

2005-11 Different Strokes, Part 2 -- more catalog of strokes

2005-12 Wrong Size, Wrong Shape -- the balls are not quite right

2006-01 A Modest Proposal -- Double hit rule discussion

2006-02 Better Safe Than Sorry -- Shot selection at the IPT KOH

2006-03 A Carom Puzzle -- How many ways to play one position?

2006-04 Straight-Pool Wrinkles -- Issues at the DCC 2006 14.1

2006-05 Wheres The Rub? -- Throw with draw and follow

2006-06 Straight Statistics -- High run statistics at 14.1

2006-07 Carom Conundrum -- Solutions for the carom puzzle of March

2006-08 The Perfect Tournament -- Details of tournament organization

2006-09 One Cushion Precision -- Playing for exact position on one cushion

2006-10 The Cutting Edge -- The thinnest possible/likely cuts

2006-11 Round-Robin Revisited -- Round robin wrinkles from the IPT

2006-12 Don't Blow It -- Where's the nose of the cushion?

2007-01 Get to the Point -- Precise position practice

2007-02 Online Magic -- YouTube videos from Semih Sayginer

2007-03 Derby City Shootout -- The 2007 edition of DCC 14.1

2007-04 Transferred Side -- History of the controversy

2007-05 Lets Twist Again -- Shots with transferred side

2007-06 Degrees of Difficulty -- Cutting and banking more than 90 degrees

2007-07 Divide and Conquer -- Fractional ball aiming

2007-08 Many Questions -- Some close combination puzzles with answers

2007-09 Killer Geometry -- The semi-circle of death

2007-10 Active Spectating -- What to watch for at tournaments

2007-11 Scratched to Death -- Extensions of the semicircle of death

2007-12 Tricky Ticky Tactics -- Lots of ways to use rail-first shots

2008-01 The Letter of the Law -- The new WPA World Standarized Rules

2008-02 Killing Me Softly? -- The soft break and nine ball

2008-03 Freezing to Death -- How a tight rack destroys nine ball

2008-04 Measured Force -- Ten degrees of force of stroke
 
agreed. but we are not talking about preferences or opinions. He said bob jewett is wrong. I (personallY) trust bob jewett. I have no clue who the poster is and if he qualified to dismiss bob jewetts ideas -- who does happen to be "one of the worlds leading experts" on the motions of billiard balls.

and I just want to know, so I can read about it. I have read most of jewetts articles and have learned a great deal. It truly is amazing how almost all pros, and nearly 100 percent of recreational players will describe PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE things they can do with billiard balls.

I also understand mechanical physics and my own knowledge tells me that the static friction of the balls is what holds them together and the impact of the divots is minimal, and only enough to make sure that static friction can do its job. I find it hard to believe that a microns deep compression of wool cloth can affect the inertial moment of a billiard ball. I really do.

GetMeThere said:
Qualifications aren't necessary to assert that it's preferable NOT to have bumps and divots on a table vs. having them.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
If you break frequently with that Sardo, you will soon see why I discontinued using it on my table. The first 3 balls will wear through the cloth. Make sure you change that spot frequently.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top