Please explain
Pattern Racking
- Thread starter Paul Schofield
- Start date
Please explain
What I mean
Is that It seems like there are two schools of thought. Those of the people who grew up without ever having to deal with the study of rack tendencies and those who've stuied it, learned and impliment it.
It seems like the game of 9 ball particularly is being split in two directions. Those people trying to hold on to the traditional approach that didn't even consider it, and the direction of those who are maximizing the knowledge of the rack.
I feel that by not allowing someone to ensure they have a rack that benefits them, then you're (in general) violating one of the principles that makes pool so great which is knowledge. Why undercut the advancement of the game. Why not see how far it can be pushed so that everyone is on an even playing surface at a higher level. It just seems like too many people are worried about change and trying to reign in the horse instead of sprinting ahead and catching up. It just makes no sense to me.
If there are un-gentlemanly practices associated with certain people attempting these things then by all means address those. But I feel if it's rack your own how are you affecting your opponent. It's his responsibility to prepare himself adequately to play. If he hasn't studied how to rack or at least how to break and make a ball that's not my problem, and i shouldn't be penalized for it.
Is that It seems like there are two schools of thought. Those of the people who grew up without ever having to deal with the study of rack tendencies and those who've stuied it, learned and impliment it.
It seems like the game of 9 ball particularly is being split in two directions. Those people trying to hold on to the traditional approach that didn't even consider it, and the direction of those who are maximizing the knowledge of the rack.
I feel that by not allowing someone to ensure they have a rack that benefits them, then you're (in general) violating one of the principles that makes pool so great which is knowledge. Why undercut the advancement of the game. Why not see how far it can be pushed so that everyone is on an even playing surface at a higher level. It just seems like too many people are worried about change and trying to reign in the horse instead of sprinting ahead and catching up. It just makes no sense to me.
If there are un-gentlemanly practices associated with certain people attempting these things then by all means address those. But I feel if it's rack your own how are you affecting your opponent. It's his responsibility to prepare himself adequately to play. If he hasn't studied how to rack or at least how to break and make a ball that's not my problem, and i shouldn't be penalized for it.
Perfection
It is the very search for perfection that drives so many players to achieve in this wonderful and dynamic game we all are so passionate about.
It is in the spirit of that pursuit that many players study and learn how to pattern rack. It is my belief that pattern racking shouldn't be outlawed or be made illegal. For what reason.
Why limit someone who's learned a skill or managed to increase their odds of success in the most crucial area of the game which is undoubtedly the break. Would you ask Shane to not break so good in 10 ball so the rest of the world could be on equal terms with him?
It is the very search for perfection that drives so many players to achieve in this wonderful and dynamic game we all are so passionate about.
It is in the spirit of that pursuit that many players study and learn how to pattern rack. It is my belief that pattern racking shouldn't be outlawed or be made illegal. For what reason.
Why limit someone who's learned a skill or managed to increase their odds of success in the most crucial area of the game which is undoubtedly the break. Would you ask Shane to not break so good in 10 ball so the rest of the world could be on equal terms with him?
This thread is all heated for little to no reason. Someone keeps saying the better player will win anyway and they are generally right. Mandatory pushout is the way of the future, that way each rack will start with some moving.
The defenders of pattern racking in my eyes will always be lame I don't give one solitary shit if it is a learned skill and ability and blah blah blah...it's chicken shit and their are still places in this country that doing that will get you punched in the face. You can't preach the spirit of the game with a fist in your mouth so be cautious where you pattern rack at. I generally let it slide now but occasionally at my opponents expense I will ask for a rerack over and over and over and over again. When they complain I will say it's a skill I learned to annoy my opponents. Yall practice the rack, Ill work on my psychological warfare techniques and just when you think it matters I'll laugh cause I make more money than almost every pool player alive.
Rack em wired, rack em fair, whatever you do just rack em. My memory is bad but I can remember people having ideas about setting up specific patterns for outs and playing the game in frames...all this extra crap takes way more effort then throwing the balls in the rack and breaking them. Better player will usually win anyway.
The defenders of pattern racking in my eyes will always be lame I don't give one solitary shit if it is a learned skill and ability and blah blah blah...it's chicken shit and their are still places in this country that doing that will get you punched in the face. You can't preach the spirit of the game with a fist in your mouth so be cautious where you pattern rack at. I generally let it slide now but occasionally at my opponents expense I will ask for a rerack over and over and over and over again. When they complain I will say it's a skill I learned to annoy my opponents. Yall practice the rack, Ill work on my psychological warfare techniques and just when you think it matters I'll laugh cause I make more money than almost every pool player alive.
Rack em wired, rack em fair, whatever you do just rack em. My memory is bad but I can remember people having ideas about setting up specific patterns for outs and playing the game in frames...all this extra crap takes way more effort then throwing the balls in the rack and breaking them. Better player will usually win anyway.
What you don't seem to understand is that pattern racking is ALREADY ILLEGAL and against the rules.
This is from BCA rules (emphasis is mine)
5.2 RACKING THE BALLS
The object balls are racked in a diamond shape, with the 1-ball at the top of the diamond and on the foot spot, the 9-ball in the center of the diamond, and the other balls in random order, racked as tightly as possible. The game begins with cue ball in hand behind the head string.
This is from WPA rules
2.2 Nine Ball Rack
The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern.
Sheesh
First - I can't believe this thread has gone to 15 pages.
Patterns are just opinions, nothing else, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't agree with taking away the break, it is part of the game. People wanting to take away the break are the ones that lose because they don't break good to begin with.
Let's see - I think women that have a certain hair color are better than ones with other hair colors in bed, are you going to accuse me of
'Pattern Picking'?
I think that coin flips favor tails about 72% of the time, unless it happens to be a 'heads night, then the flip favors heads about 72% of the time. I always call tails, again I 'Pattern Pick'.
Again, you don't know the 'intent' of pattern racking to begin with, and it is nothing but an opinion, and every hard break is different, and I've been playing 49 years, for some pretty big money at times, and I have studied breaking and racking in minute detail for most of those years.
Frost - If you run out of games, come to Wichita, you can get played.
First - I can't believe this thread has gone to 15 pages.
Patterns are just opinions, nothing else, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't agree with taking away the break, it is part of the game. People wanting to take away the break are the ones that lose because they don't break good to begin with.
Let's see - I think women that have a certain hair color are better than ones with other hair colors in bed, are you going to accuse me of
'Pattern Picking'?
I think that coin flips favor tails about 72% of the time, unless it happens to be a 'heads night, then the flip favors heads about 72% of the time. I always call tails, again I 'Pattern Pick'.
Again, you don't know the 'intent' of pattern racking to begin with, and it is nothing but an opinion, and every hard break is different, and I've been playing 49 years, for some pretty big money at times, and I have studied breaking and racking in minute detail for most of those years.
Frost - If you run out of games, come to Wichita, you can get played.
unfortunately unless you are playing BCA/WPA rules in a gambling match...its NOT illegal.
Plain and simple, each and every person gets to CHOOSE their matches in gambling. Dont take a match you dont want or dont like the rules.
I watched a match once with a guy playing the 4-ball ghost... his "challenger" was racking for him. When examined, the guy was racking slightly behind the spot in order to stop from making corner balls on the break. This was looked at as unsportsmanlike and the guy was kicked out of the pool hall.
If I am playing a match where my opponent/someone else is racking for me. It is my job to inspect the rack and ensure that I am getting a "good" rack. It is my responsiblity as the breaker to ensure that they are not "intentionally" racking bad patterns etc. If I recognize that, I will speak up about it and call them out. These two scenarios are the same.
IMHO... If you agree to a "rack your own" match up. then it is exactly that. Rack Your Own. If you dont like pattern racking, then suggest a agreement where its rack your own without patterns. but it STILL comes down to being your own responsibilty to recognize it.
There is nothing to fix here. Nothing is broken. Dont like pattern racking, play one-pocket, 8-ball, straight pool. If someone figures out how to pattern rack those games...i quit.
As close of an example as I can figure would be something crazy...say I learn how to shoot Triple Carom Shots like they were easy. Everyone I played gets beat because I have this ability that I have taken the time to learn and perfect to my advantage. Do you step up the game to my level...or ban triple carom shots? sounds ridiculous right?
GETMETHERE - I do agree though, if someone is pattern racking under those rules...it is illegal.
Carl
Plain and simple, each and every person gets to CHOOSE their matches in gambling. Dont take a match you dont want or dont like the rules.
I watched a match once with a guy playing the 4-ball ghost... his "challenger" was racking for him. When examined, the guy was racking slightly behind the spot in order to stop from making corner balls on the break. This was looked at as unsportsmanlike and the guy was kicked out of the pool hall.
If I am playing a match where my opponent/someone else is racking for me. It is my job to inspect the rack and ensure that I am getting a "good" rack. It is my responsiblity as the breaker to ensure that they are not "intentionally" racking bad patterns etc. If I recognize that, I will speak up about it and call them out. These two scenarios are the same.
IMHO... If you agree to a "rack your own" match up. then it is exactly that. Rack Your Own. If you dont like pattern racking, then suggest a agreement where its rack your own without patterns. but it STILL comes down to being your own responsibilty to recognize it.
There is nothing to fix here. Nothing is broken. Dont like pattern racking, play one-pocket, 8-ball, straight pool. If someone figures out how to pattern rack those games...i quit.
As close of an example as I can figure would be something crazy...say I learn how to shoot Triple Carom Shots like they were easy. Everyone I played gets beat because I have this ability that I have taken the time to learn and perfect to my advantage. Do you step up the game to my level...or ban triple carom shots? sounds ridiculous right?
GETMETHERE - I do agree though, if someone is pattern racking under those rules...it is illegal.
Carl
Right. I meant "illegal" by those rules. Anybody can agree with anybody to play any game they wish. I hope that obvious fact is clear to everyone. The thing is, in an impromptu match-up, rule specifics are not often given--at which point most people, in a disagreement, will insist on referring to some published, "official," rules for clarification.
I'm sure that there are alot of tournaments out there that play by either BCA or WPA rules, but how many tournaments have you seen where they actually stop the racker and say... "Hey, you've racked this order of balls the last 2 racks, you are now unable to rack this specific order... please adjust your order or be penalized"...
I believe that this rule was written quite a while back, before the true scope of what it means today could be realized. If you notice, most of the tournaments today have adapted by trying to enforce a certain break rule... i.e. no soft break, or a certain number of balls must past the head string...
I know of several tournaments in my area that say you must rack the 2 ball behind the 9 ball, or keep the 2 and 3 on the corners of a ten ball rack. This is done to protect against overly advantageous racking patterns... however after that it's just ludicrous to think that people are really going to sit there and police every single rack, write down patterns, the number of times it was used etc... it's just silly.
I don't think if the governing body were asked to re-word this rule they'd phrase it the same way. It's leading to too many issues. If this rule were worded in such a way that it didn't allow for a negative interpretation of "pattern racking" would you still object to the practice really?
Herein lies the problem... A good pattern racker will never be "caught" because he doesn't have to pattern rack every rack. If he only changes the position of one particular ball, can you tell if you've just been pattern racked? NO, you can't. What if he pattern racks one out of every four racks? Will you be able to tell? No. Paul's process doesn't care what your intentions are, it just allows enforcement of the rule.
If this was the U.S. Government this would be considered an unenforceable mandate. The governing bodies have given us a rule to abide by without a method to execute the rule and recognize an infraction of the rule.
I am going to try asking the same question I have been asking in this thread but I will come from a different angle. Here it goes. All you players who insist on pattern racking for whatever reason, is there anything that is done today that stops you from doing what you want to do? What is it?
Right, it is very difficult to detect or enforce even if detected. Besides perhaps pattern racking only every other rack, a player can also camouflage it by using more than one pattern and using the opposite pattern and breaking from the other side.
So to me it isn't even about how to prevent it. It is about the honor of each individual player. Knowing it is against the rules there are not only many people who do it, but admit to it. It really doesn't matter if you think it is a bad rule or an unenforceable rule. It is a rule, plain and simple. Either one plays by the rules or one doesn't. I guess there are a lot of pool players who simply take pride in cheating just because it can't be proved.
It is what it is.
This thread is about how to prevent it. Honor is for another day. Do you have things you like to protect and secure? Do you lock your car or your house? Do you use a fence for anything. Do you have a security system. Do you have passwords for your computer? Do you have any PIN numbers? Do you have a safe?
I am not being sarcastic. I am trying to make a point. I want to protect and secure the rack. I can do it in less than five seconds. I can do it in less time and with less effort than a determined pattern racker can manipulate his rack.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H3FiUd-Wsk
It is what we make it.
Paul -- Here's what I think of your no-conflict rules. I really wish I were able to play in your tournaments! (Alas, I'm hundreds of miles away.)
As to the difficulty of detecting when someone is pattern racking, I once played a guy who pulled out a piece of paper and referred to it several times as he racked the balls!:frown:
As to the difficulty of detecting when someone is pattern racking, I once played a guy who pulled out a piece of paper and referred to it several times as he racked the balls!:frown:
When someone changes breaking positions it has nothing to do with masking patterns. It's a result of how the balls are touching in the rack and which four ball track is going to give you the wing ball in the corner.
I think that people are putting too much emphasis on the "pattern" that the balls are being racked. It really only is a small percentage thing. The most important aspect of racking your own is ensuring frozen ball tracks and ensuring you're going to get a good rack. If people wouldn't take it to the next level ad trying to find layouts that benefit them then no one would complain.
However that's the natural succession of things. I mean i started trying out patterns in ten ball the moment i started practicing my break. Naturally and without instruction from anyone else. I've been racking the same rack ever since. This is also with keeping the 2/3 on the corners. But really the order doesn't matter all that much because a player's only going to try and make a ball on the break and keep position on the one ball.
If it doesn't matter, why did you put so much time into it and why do you rack the balls in a chosen pattern every time?
If you really want to stop someone from pattern racking you should pop them in the mouth one time. That'll bring an end to all that.
Unfortunately, this solution would end the game. I never heard of a match continue after someone got punched in the mouth. I would like to see the players keep on playing.
Mental
It took me one session to figure out the pattern i liked, and about 30 mins. Incidentally Corey has since taken my pattern after him and I played and uses it all the time too... But i didn't put much time into it.
Why do i still do it, because it's a psychological comfort. One less thing to worry about and against the better players it settles me to know i have a known and proven approach when playing ten ball. This game is very mental so having a set order of balls just adds a little more psychological security...
Mikey: I'm sure doing what you described would do anything but put an end to the pattern racking... That kind of thing just isn't what pool is about or needs....
It took me one session to figure out the pattern i liked, and about 30 mins. Incidentally Corey has since taken my pattern after him and I played and uses it all the time too... But i didn't put much time into it.
Why do i still do it, because it's a psychological comfort. One less thing to worry about and against the better players it settles me to know i have a known and proven approach when playing ten ball. This game is very mental so having a set order of balls just adds a little more psychological security...
Mikey: I'm sure doing what you described would do anything but put an end to the pattern racking... That kind of thing just isn't what pool is about or needs....
Originally Posted by DogsPlayingPool
If it doesn't matter, why did you put so much time into it and why do you rack the balls in a chosen pattern every time?
Well guess what DogsPlayingPool, Ray finally admits that it matters. Can we get him to realize that this is cheating?
If it doesn't matter, why did you put so much time into it and why do you rack the balls in a chosen pattern every time?
Well guess what DogsPlayingPool, Ray finally admits that it matters. Can we get him to realize that this is cheating?
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