Values at the pool tournament

allen_jr said:
I'm not sure what the highest entry fee is nationally. I do know that we tried an event with a $5000 entry fee, and set-up a qualifier system that poolrooms could use to get people in the event for as little as $25. The system would work, and did in some limited situations... our primary problem was lack of funds and manpower to properly promote the event at the local level, which is where it needs to happen.

We did get 12 players for this event, at $5000 each. The players were:
Dennis Orcollo
Corey Deuel
Francisco Bustamante
Shane Van Boening
Marlon Manalo
Daryl Peach
Dennis Hatch
Stevie Moore
Tony "T-Rex" Chohan
Johnny Archer
Matt Krah
Evan Broxmeyer

Yes, we got a much lower turnout than expected, but the players got to play plenty. Format was like this: players played each 25 games to get a score. Not a "best of" or "race to" anything. So the score could be 24-1 or 13-12. However many games they won was their score, and then they moved on to play another player based on scores. Their cumulative score carried with them throughout the first round, so that end of round 1, they had played every other player, and had played a total of 150 games. After round one, Orcollo was in the lead with 93 wins (26 Break n runs)..

There is a bit more to the format, and we made some changes (before event started) due to the low turnout. When it was over, Corey Deuel was the winner. I don't remember the exact payout structure, but it was based on the $60,000 in entry fees and we tried to make sure most players got something back, not an all-or-nothing event..

Anyway, sorry I am not getting into it more, its just a lot to type (and read)

As for calcuttas, I don't know much about the legality and how public they can be made. I was always under the impression that they were not really legal...
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Thanks for the response, and I know that you are very familiar with a lot of the business/player side to tournament structure and how to organize a tournament so I am not doubting your experience in this subject.

It is my opinion that there is no way to start at the top and work you way down unless you plan on loosing millions for ten years or so. Anotherwords, I dont see how anyone will be able to start a pro tour for the top players within the US because there is no Governing Union/Organization within them. Yes I here that it is going to start, but I have heard that since the 80's and it has come and gone since then many times.

Were do I feel the best chance of top players becoming an organized group and having a form of qualification to achieve the ranking of Professional, the CSI/BCAPL. I could see this being a possibility of happening within the next 5 years if they wanted to take on that task. They already have a structured division process established so that is a great starting point to establish what criteria is required to become a Pro.
Like win the Nationals in the grand master division, or top 10, who however they would want to govern it.

If you look at the structure of tournaments that the BCA already has, the yearly nationals, the regional eight ball and nine ball tournaments, so that leads to at least 9 tournaments if they can start an NorthEast and SouthEast regional events. They are already set up to be at least a week long and that already draws hundreds/thousands of non pro players so it may be easily incorporated into the current setup and easily promoted. Also, the dates are pretty much not overlapping with the DCC/Swanee/US Open so they may be able to come together to make a 12 stop tour.

Even if the BCAPL looked into this and decided to give it a run, the players involved in this endeavor would not make a ton of money until it became marketable to a larger fan base. But you have to be able to prove you can create a fan base first.

I could go on, but like you said, it would really be a long read...
 
allen_jr said:
I know why the companies spend lots of money, are you asking me about Budweiser? My question and response was in reply to justnum saying that "Marketing is important if you are appealing to a group of people who don't know anything"
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No I was suggesting that Bud is in the same boat as Coke - marketing to retain as well as aquire new customers. In Buds case, one of the reasons you see all the POP, signs, neons, etc is to sway the new beer drinker to buy a Bud product when faced with several choices at the point of sale. When it comes to marketing pool it's a different ball game. I've seen marketing for specific events but nothing for the sport in general. Just too many people trying to get a piece of whatever pie is there rather then try to work collectively to bring pool more into the mainstream.

allen_jr said:
I admit I was exaggerating slightly (poker) ... There's a huge luck factor.
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Pool by far demands skill and maybe the occasional lucky roll - no argument at all there. The luck factor is beyond huge in poker but it does take a certain amount of skill to manage the luck one gets. I hear what you're saying and thankfully the half-brainers rarely win it all in the end.
 
Dartman said:
No I was suggesting that Bud is in the same boat as Coke - marketing to retain as well as aquire new customers. In Buds case, one of the reasons you see all the POP, signs, neons, etc is to sway the new beer drinker to buy a Bud product when faced with several choices at the point of sale. When it comes to marketing pool it's a different ball game. I've seen marketing for specific events but nothing for the sport in general. Just too many people trying to get a piece of whatever pie is there rather then try to work collectively to bring pool more into the mainstream.



Pool by far demands skill and maybe the occasional lucky roll - no argument at all there. The luck factor is beyond huge in poker but it does take a certain amount of skill to manage the luck one gets. I hear what you're saying and thankfully the half-brainers rarely win it all in the end.
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Managing luck or risk is referred to as an actuarial science. Those "risktakers" consist of a strategy table (a list of probabilities), a person memorizing the table and a person applying the information at a game. To me poker is a game of memory. I like professional roulette.
 
Tom In Cincy said:
justnum,

I'm guessing here, but in my opinion you've probably never been to a pool tournament with over 32 players.

Have you ever been to the Derby City Classic? 1200 players for 9 days. Can you even imagine having a 9 day event with 1200 players? Spectators average around 250-300 per day.

I'm also guessing you probably don't know who Allen_Jr is.

You seem to be guessing a lot about the details of promoting a tournament.

First off, the Promoter hires the Tournament Director to run the tournament. The tournament is the format that the players follow to determine the champion.

Everything else is handled by the Promoter; getting the sponsors for added money, the venue, the tables, advertising and staff.
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Guesswork is common in investigations. So is deciding who has reliable information and who doesn't have it.

The idea of a sound barrier between the fans and the playing area is one you have helped me develop. Thank you. Your inspiration has been invaluable. Hockey has one but that is too protect the audience. It shouldn't be difficult to modify it as an acoustic shield.
 
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justnum said:
Theoretical Pool Tournament

64 Players

10 Legends
10 Rising Stars
24 Nobody's
20 Professionals

Tournament Arena Capacity 1000 people
Legend attracts 100 people
Rising Star attracts 50 people
Professionals attract 5 people.

Rent for Arena: $2500 daily
Popcorn: $1
Soda: $1
Alcohol: $5
Tickets: $10

If 10 legends play on the same day income from tickets is $10,000. If those fans are hungry or thirsty the minimum income is $1 the maximum income is $28 (four of each item). Total income from food and drink is $28,000.
For that day when all legends play income is $38,000, deduct arena fees and the remaining is $35,500. How many days should they play?

Big tournaments can make the most money from food, drink and tickets. I would post code so that you can adjust the numbers. I don't want to argue the different values, use a spreadsheet program.
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This is a joke, right? Since nothing on here has anything to do with any reality that I've ever seen. This is what I would call an over simplified version of someone's cliff notes on producing a pool tournament. I wouldn't know where to begin to answer this (if there was even a question raised), other than to say that as TD I never touch ANY of the money!
 
Are you having trouble understanding the numbers in the post? It is a proposed budget of an event. It is common practice to prepare estimates. Since everyone knows how much players get paid why not show how the numbers reveal how much promoters/directors cash out or potentially can cash out. At the time when the event starts the person operating the event has capital from players if they pay early when expenses are high. During the event cash flow is high but expenses are low.

You got something against calculating estimates?

The tournament is a great way to learn money management.
 
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jay helfert said:
This is a joke, right? Since nothing on here has anything to do with any reality that I've ever seen. This is what I would call an over simplified version of someone's cliff notes on producing a pool tournament. I wouldn't know where to begin to answer this (if there was even a question raised), other than to say that as TD I never touch ANY of the money!
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Haha, yes Jay, I'm starting to believe it as well... Guess I fell for it :)
 
My real goal was to make a thread have 1000 views in the man forum.
 
I like the ethical dilemma of a non-neutral party holding excessive amounts of cash. This is common in many places.

If a money order is prepared at the start of the tournament than it shows good money planning. A display of cash is as valuable but is susceptible to ethical problems.

The money orders can be bought before the tournament. The purchase is dated and the cash out can be dated as well. Its much better than escrow. The money order transactions can be witnessed by a player or some non-management party.

Cash payments make it seem like someone took an advance on the player's payouts and are filling in gaps at the last minute with available cash, maybe from the hotdog stand.
 
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It is amazing the amount of trust some people put into others that handle money matters. I am amazed by some of your comments. I think you either didn't grow up with money or have no idea the problems money attracts.
 
I prefer if comments not about the thread be kept off the thread.

You can make that happen by thinking if your comment quantifies anything at a pool tournament,
 
justnum said:
Are you having trouble understanding the numbers in the post? It is a proposed budget of an event. It is common practice to prepare estimates. Since everyone knows how much players get paid why not show how the numbers reveal how much promoters/directors cash out or potentially can cash out. At the time when the event starts the person operating the event has capital from players if they pay early when expenses are high. During the event cash flow is high but expenses are low.

You got something against calculating estimates?

The tournament is a great way to learn money management.
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What numbers? What budget? If I ever showed you all the numbers and expenses that go into producing a major event, you would realize that your "cliff notes" version doesn't even begin to tell the story. And that's before you take into account the actual logistics of setting up the event. If you only knew! You haven't even touched the surface yet my friend.

By the way, there were over 1,000 spectators in attendance at the Open during more than one session. I will only add one more thing to your "estimates." The actual costs involved in producing the U.S. Open are well into six figures and the income derived may not cover all the costs. That's about as plain and simple as I can make it.

The U.S. Open, in effect, is one big pool party that Barry Behrman puts on every year. It is also a great promotion for pool in the Norfolk area, and as the owner of a large poolroom that has to help his business. He certainly doesn't want to take a bath on it, but is he overly concerned with making a profit, I think not.
 
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From what I saw either the arena or the tables were the highest expense for the tournament. The cost of attracting the players to the event seems minimal. The cost of attracting fans to the event also minimal. On days when average pros were playing attendance barely outnumbered players.

The first ethical dilemma is if the money for the entry fee be used explicitly to payout players or can it be used for tournament expenses?

The first problem is are players also venture capitalists when they play in a tournament (entry fees used for tournament expenses)? As a group they put up a lot of money, that makes them investors or venture capitalists. Why can't the tournament wait to collect entry fees until after the tournament is over? It is like a mechanic they work first and ask for payment later. If that's how a tournament is players pay entry when they collect their prizes then there is no chance of losing their investment.

If the cash prizes aren't prepared ahead of time and they depend on money made at the tournament from sales, then that entitles them to more than a fixed amount. The players serve as a zero percent loan or investment in a tournament product, they are now investors or venture capitalists. The percentage of money the players put up in capital makes them capitalists with entitlements to a percentage of income from ticket sales. Their cut should be determined based on the initial percentage of investment. If they put up 60% of expenses they should at least get 60% of income.

The players put up 60% of the initial investment for payouts but the money might not get used to pay out it could be used to rent a room or pay for the tables. That is another dilemma. If the money is used for expenses other than payouts, players become venture capitalists and investors to the tournament. Investor fees are very high in the business world. Venture capitalists are cheap and are quick to make estimates to determine a fair fee for the person writing out documents, the boring part of the job. The capitalists deal with the worry of making the money back. The person with the idea or tournament worries about how much money they need to make to want to run the event again.
 
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Cheap fans or expensive ones.

Expensive fans are usually drawn out by a well-known media figure.

Cheap fans are drawn out if there is free stuff.

The choices are between free stuff or people that you would want to be photographed with.

I used to be with a company that supplied entertainment at events. One event was the opening of a store. I would setup equipment that plays loud music on the street and that would attract locals to check it out. They would stick around if there was free food or other stuff. Games kept kids busy, food kept people busy and staff girls would keep pervs busy.

The free stuff would then be talked about and attract friends.


Expensive fans like private areas with a limited number of people. They prefer to have a show that has a schedule. They particularly like showing up just for the big show and skipping out on everything else. Ceremonies of traditional significance draw large crowds. The gimmicks I have seen are auctions.
 
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justnum said:
Cheap fans or expensive ones.

Expensive fans are usually drawn out by a well-known media figure.

Cheap fans are drawn out if there is free stuff.

The choices are between free stuff or people that you would want to be photographed with.

I used to be with a company that supplied entertainment at events. One event was the opening of a store. I would setup equipment that plays loud music and that would attract locals to check it out. They would stick around if there was free food or other stuff. Games kept kids busy, food kept people busy and staff girls would keep pervs busy.

The free stuff would then be talked about and attract friends.
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How would you get 1,000 paying spectators to a pool tourney?

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
How would you get 1,000 paying spectators to a pool tourney?

Jeff Livingston
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I will discuss with you techniques that are common in practice. I will not discuss with you how to do a specific job.
 
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