Does Event Streaming Keep People From Supporting the Billiard Rooms ?

[Brian in VA]

Response in blue...



To be perfectly clear on this. You are NOT patronizing a billiard room by watching a stream. I have seen many and yes I mean MANY room owners look at stream #'s and say Hmm. 200 people online......... I wish they were here in my room.

The simple fact is that people are not coming into pool rooms as often as they used to and anything that in reality or is even perceived as keeping any PATRON out of the pool room the room owners are not going to be happy with it.

I apologize if I offended about the free wifi. My experience around here is that the people taking advantage of it aren't spending a dime in the room either. Could just be my local room.

That's fair enough. I agree if they're watching a stream at home, and they're local, they aren't in that room. Do we have any numbers about the viewers locations? My guess is no. That said, when's the last time that room had 200 people in it? I can't answer but the places around here, that's rare except on league nights.

I agree folks aren't coming in as often as we'd like to see. I can't make the leap that it's free streaming that's keeping them out though.

Great thread and worthy of discussion!

Brian

 

[Jaden]

This is in response to Superstars comments about not going to a venue...

I can understand your point but I just don't think that it plays too much of a roll.

For me, I would've never considered going to AZ to Kolby's if not for seeing the streams that Lenny put on. Now, I'm talking with my brother about a road trip to AZ....

I think that for people who travel, it gives them an idea of what places are likely to be more for Players and less for bangers, so they are more likely to go to those establishments if they are in town. Is it an immediate revenue generator? Probably not, does getting the venue's name make up for it in the long run... It depends on how many people DON'T show up for the event. I don't think that the available stream deters enough people from going to make up for the potential additional revenue that is gotten from the publicity.

ATP, it may be premature to have this attitude, because there really aren't a bunch of people watching the streams yet, but how many players know other players that are asked, "Hey, I'm going to San Diego next week, what's a good place to play?". An answer could be, "I just saw a tour event played at OnCue streamed online, you might want to try there....".

Jaden

 

[Tom In Cincy]

IMO, streaming is an investment into the future of pool.

The cooperation between the Promoter and the Streamer has to be more of a partnership than a store buying a product. (Promoter buying streaming services) Both are trying to promote their services.

Currently the Promoter doesn't need the Streamer as much as the Streamer needs the Promoter.

Once the Streaming becomes a 'standard' must at a regional level tournament then both the Streamer and the Promoter can benefit. More sponsors will want to be on the Stream and also be part of the event. More money for both Streamer and Promoter.

Room Streams are very nice for the avid pool fans that have computers or access to the streaming through whatever portable device. IMO, currently there aren't that many pool players that carry a cue case and laptop to the pool hall. IMO there aren't that many pool players that have computers that are aware of the streams available, or would even watch if they knew.

Watching a stream requires you to sit and watch and not do much of anything else. Live means you miss something if you aren't dedicated to the time frame the stream is on. Matches that last over an hour will likely attract only the pure diehard pool players.

All in all, I don't see how Streaming helps Room owners draw more customers to their pool halls. That is one of the most difficult battles a Room owner has, getting customers into the store to buy the products. You can't do that with people watching the stream, unless they are sitting in the room watching their computer instead of the live action at the table.

 

[georgem1223]

I'm relatively new to the game and I feel that it helps educate players like myself on the game and on the opportunities to play. I think that in order to get the game to grow you need to bring new players in like myself, and you can't just rely on an existing market. When I see guys go out and run racks I just get inspired and I want to go out and practice. That's my 2 cents.

G

 

[UrackmIcrackm]

Before streaming came along there were local areas that I drove to in order to watch a tournament. Now that we have streaming, I still drive to those places. Anything outside of what I consider local will be watched on a stream. I would much rather watch an event in person.

There have been many times that I've been very interested in a match that wasn't being streamed and very disinterested in the match being streamed. Nothing compares to being at an event, watching multiple matches, and visiting with people. Streaming only helps to ease the pain of not being there when there is an event too far to go to.

 

[stljohnny]

I can understand your point but I just don't think that it plays too much of a roll.

For me, I would've never considered going to AZ to Kolby's if not for seeing the streams that Lenny put on. Now, I'm talking with my brother about a road trip to AZ....

I think that for people who travel, it gives them an idea of what places are likely to be more for Players and less for bangers, so they are more likely to go to those establishments if they are in town. Is it an immediate revenue generator? Probably not, does getting the venue's name make up for it in the long run... It depends on how many people DON'T show up for the event. I don't think that the available stream deters enough people from going to make up for the potential additional revenue that is gotten from the publicity.

ATP, it may be premature to have this attitude, because there really aren't a bunch of people watching the streams yet, but how many players know other players that are asked, "Hey, I'm going to San Diego next week, what's a good place to play?". An answer could be, "I just saw a tour event played at OnCue streamed online, you might want to try there....".

Jaden

This is exactly why I like regional streaming. I don't know anyone in the rooms on the other side of the state, but thanks to the streams, I'm confident that if I emailed some of the streamers I've met that stream out of those rooms, I'd at least have a few people to chat with and wouldn't feel like an absolute outsider. The next time there's a big event over there, I'm much more open to the idea of driving 5 or 6 hours to check it out.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I can understand your point but I just don't think that it plays too much of a roll.

For me, I would've never considered going to AZ to Kolby's if not for seeing the streams that Lenny put on. Now, I'm talking with my brother about a road trip to AZ....

I think that for people who travel, it gives them an idea of what places are likely to be more for Players and less for bangers, so they are more likely to go to those establishments if they are in town. Is it an immediate revenue generator? Probably not, does getting the venue's name make up for it in the long run... It depends on how many people DON'T show up for the event. I don't think that the available stream deters enough people from going to make up for the potential additional revenue that is gotten from the publicity.

ATP, it may be premature to have this attitude, because there really aren't a bunch of people watching the streams yet, but how many players know other players that are asked, "Hey, I'm going to San Diego next week, what's a good place to play?". An answer could be, "I just saw a tour event played at OnCue streamed online, you might want to try there....".

Jaden

Yeah, but this argument is about technology.
Same thing could be said about the invention of cell phones, and how that gave people more access to stuff. Same thing could be said about the internet in general.

I am talking about streams where the room owner, or venue promoter, is spending money on the stream.
They are already in the hole.
If those funds go out the window with no tangible ROI, they are eventually going to wise up and it's bye bye stream.

 

[stuckart]

I live in a city that has multiple people streaming, including myself. I am also one of above average stream watchers from the comfort of my own home. If it weren't for streams I probably wouldn't even be that interested in the game today.

I've had this discussion with numerous people in recent weeks. And I think it really boils down to a businesses clientele. When it comes to 'Players', it probably helps business close to 75% of the time. These players are seeing people play, learning from them over the stream and get more motivated to play as they are constantly thinking about pool. Many might not play in today's tourney but would show up for another tourney soon, without the stream they might not even known about it. Some Players want to play on the stream to show some friends across the country/world their game, others are scared of playing on the stream.

If you are talking about regular patrons that like to just watch, it can't be hurting anymore than it would be helping. They most likely like to watch in person and sweat matches.

I think a large majority of persons just check out the stream for a few minutes, try and see some updates from friends or see the end of an intense match or two.

 

[ctyhntr]

I appreciate you filling in the details. Right now online streamers are in no position to pose a threat to ESPN. ESPN, despite being given boatloads of videos by the WBPA and others, don't interested promoting pool. Relegating pool to grave yard shift time-slots don't bring in the viewers, which doesn't attract advertisers, so its a death spiral.

Maybe I'm asking too much, near future to walk into a poolroom/bar and ask to switch the channel from baseball,hockey, football to watch a match (like the Shane-Mika).

The main difference with Stream vs TV is that Live Venues like major Sports and such get a cut of the advertising dollars from TV while the billiard venues usually have to pay streamers to come and stream the events while the streamers also keep the advertising dollars they collect from commercials.

Basically it is the ESPN deal all over again. But you would have to be in the know to know this.

 

[Marie's husband]

As for me, I honestly love the streams and it keeps me interested in the pool scene. I am sorta in a remote area that doesnt have a pool hall withing 1 1/2 hours so I am stuck playing at the local bars but I travel a lot so the streams show me what the pool hall is like and it gives me a little bit of a feel of what to expect when i get there. I have driven way out of my way a few times to go to places that I have seen on the streams so in my opinion I think they are great for that business to do and it may not be visible to the owner during the tournament, but it pays off in the long run.

In my opinion if I was an owner of a sports bar or a pool hall I would have a couple of big screens with laptops set up near a pool table so my customers can watch and participate in the chat forum. Why near a pool table? So that when one of the customers says "thats an easy out, or I can do that" you can set up the balls or the shot and say "prove it". Sorta an interactive stream,,,,,may work, may not, but I think it would be worth a try.

 

[ctyhntr]

Oldzilla,

The pieces are already here. I've been to a few pool rooms/bars that have big screen TVs and wifi (internet access). The key is to make it easy as using a remote, not fiddling around with computer and looking up URL addresses.

Right now there are a couple of internet video streaming boxes, and they're pretty much affordable; around $100 Roku is $99, Western Digital TV Live Media Player, Apple TV and others.

On these boxes, you can order videos through Netflix or iTunes. On Roku, Major League Baseball has a deal where you can order the entire season.

Maybe if the online streamers get together, they can package something similar to offer to Netflix or iTunes.

Remember that Eric Clapton song in the COM?

"Its in the Way That You Use It"

Well a good businessman would have a great internet connection with a big screen to show the good streams.

Imagine your room having the US Open broadcasted live !

Also with the great internet you can have your own events streamed !

Motion is 2/3rds of Promotion !

 

[highrun55]

they are watching

Every time Im watching a streamed match on my puter in my pool room there are always 2 or three customers watching over my shoulder, and they ere usually on the clock to.

so it`s good for pool. I just wish I was busy enough to buy the big screen or camera needed to do something here

highrun55

 

[Holly]

Streaming and live spectator involvement are two totally different groups of peeps.

Those who watch the stream would be at the room or host venue watching live if they were able to be there. Live streaming you only see one match at a time versus all of them and the social aspect, while similar, is still different.

I believe and have experienced there is no negative impact on how many people watch in person because of live streaming. All the stream does is add value, not re-allocate value.

 

[Island Drive]

And this has what to do with the streaming issue ? Explain please.

'' Keep People From Supporting the Billiard Rooms'', a little off track, yet as you can see this room owners thinking was "NOT supporting any billiard rooms other than himself, mental slip up, when your over 60 it happens, can't wait for 70:)

 

[Fast Lenny]

I can understand your point but I just don't think that it plays too much of a roll.

For me, I would've never considered going to AZ to Kolby's if not for seeing the streams that Lenny put on. Now, I'm talking with my brother about a road trip to AZ....

I think that for people who travel, it gives them an idea of what places are likely to be more for Players and less for bangers, so they are more likely to go to those establishments if they are in town. Is it an immediate revenue generator? Probably not, does getting the venue's name make up for it in the long run... It depends on how many people DON'T show up for the event. I don't think that the available stream deters enough people from going to make up for the potential additional revenue that is gotten from the publicity.

ATP, it may be premature to have this attitude, because there really aren't a bunch of people watching the streams yet, but how many players know other players that are asked, "Hey, I'm going to San Diego next week, what's a good place to play?". An answer could be, "I just saw a tour event played at OnCue streamed online, you might want to try there....".

Jaden

Look forward to meeting you, just drop me a PM when your in town. I have to say that I have met many people from out of town at Kolby's that would never have went there if they did not see the stream. Even if I am not around they tell the counter man that they stopped in because they watched OTRs stream from Kolby's so have they made money and benefited from the stream, most certainly.

I have gotten people who say that some people do not show up because they can watch the stream online. That is not true IMO and those who do not because they can sit and watch from home either would be too lazy to make the drive if they are local, have to work the next day or probably wont spend money anyhow so its no real loss.

I really enjoy streaming and like the fact that people appreciate it and I got messages all the time through PM, email, Facebook and in person telling me so which keeps me going. I will tell you this that there is no money in streaming because most sponsors have not woke up and realized how much traffic and exposure there is.

I know way more then the local billiard paper and I believe some national pool magazines also. How many copies are being sold do you think of national billiard magazines and actually delivered each month? You cannot even find a pool magazine in the stores, look at Barnes & Nobles and try to find it, you might get lucky. I believe a weekend stream of a tournament can reach roughly 2,000-20,000 people in one weekend if not more.

I stream a small one pocket tournament every month on the last Saturday and it can vary from 1,000-4,000 unique viewers depending on what other streams are going on. Take a major tournament and just a backroom presence of TAR and I am sure the numbers in a week were over 50,000 unique viewers, I doubt any magazine out there is circulating 50,000 magazines a month and maybe not that in a year.

Streaming exposure is the most underrated way for people to get there products out right now and I do believe companies will wake up and realize the benefits and some already have, they would not continue to support and sponsor it if they did not get something back out of it.

Okay enough rambling, perhaps I will stream a tournament tonight now that you guys got me going. :grin:

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Lenny,
I am wondering where you got that info? I am trying to get sponsors for an event and am considering streaming.

Where can I get the info you referenced about 'most underrated way to get their products out right now'?

Sponsers are difficult enough to work with without having to provide feedback on how well their money was spent.

For room owners the only feed back I can see from streaming is viewer numbers. That doesn't necessarily or easily translate into dollars.

We recently ran an ad in a Movie theater that you get one hour of free pool with a paid hour if you brought in your ticket stub. We got a couple of hundred stubs in the first week. The ad paid off with REAL numbers. Feed Back was wonderful.

How is that accomplished with Streaming?

Streaming exposure is the most underrated way for people to get there products out right now and I do believe companies will wake up and realize the benefits and some already have, they would not continue to support and sponsor it if they did not get something back out of it.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Streaming and live spectator involvement are two totally different groups of peeps.

Those who watch the stream would be at the room or host venue watching live if they were able to be there. Live streaming you only see one match at a time versus all of them and the social aspect, while similar, is still different.

I believe and have experienced there is no negative impact on how many people watch in person because of live streaming. All the stream does is add value, not re-allocate value.

Good points.
But would you say this is the situation for all streaming? Large scale productions and small regional venues?

For instance. CSI, and BCAPL, are basically under the same roof, and are HUGE in terms of scale, when compared to a local venue.
Costs for streaming might be allocated into the whole expenditures section of the production plan, and very easily absorbed, and in the case of BCAPL in Vegas, you are going to have thousands of people there at the event in the first place. It's not going to be easy to notice a few people missing when you have so many there already.

But for small time operations, such as individual pool rooms wanting to stream a special event, sometimes the cash is hard to come by, and the ROI isn't there.
They don't get nearly as many spectators as a major event might.

I know several people who now go to the U.S Open, and when it comes to the final 2 days, they go home, where as before hand, they would stay.
Why? Simply because they want to be able to see the final matches clearly, and not be halfway across the room watching the match from a distance, sideways, in a room that is sub zero in temperature.
I also know people that didn't go specifically because it was more convenient to watch the stream on their own time, instead of making the pilgrimage to the Open, where in years past, they would have taken a vacation to attend the tournament.
Streaming now affords them the opportunity to better manage their time.
And in both instances, they aren't at the venue.

Same exact thing happens at a regional level.
At least, that is my experience as well as the experience of several people i know.
I don't know if it holds true for everywhere.

Either way, hopefully it keeps going.
If i am not going to buy a plane ticket to go watch the action in Vegas, (which i am not), at the very least, kicking back and being a couch potato with a nice bottle of wine and watching some great pool, is a nice option to have.
I really can't imagine going back to the days where if i wanted pool, i had to go watch some hacks in the local pool room beat the daylights out of the rails, and then wonder if i am a die-hard, or a masochist for putting myself in that situation and suffering through it.

 

[mlalum]

Look forward to meeting you, just drop me a PM when your in town. I have to say that I have met many people from out of town at Kolby's that would never have went there if they did not see the stream. Even if I am not around they tell the counter man that they stopped in because they watched OTRs stream from Kolby's so have they made money and benefited from the stream, most certainly.

I have gotten people who say that some people do not show up because they can watch the stream online. That is not true IMO and those who do not because they can sit and watch from home either would be too lazy to make the drive if they are local, have to work the next day or probably wont spend money anyhow so its no real loss.

I really enjoy streaming and like the fact that people appreciate it and I got messages all the time through PM, email, Facebook and in person telling me so which keeps me going. I will tell you this that there is no money in streaming because most sponsors have not woke up and realized how much traffic and exposure there is.

I know way more then the local billiard paper and I believe some national pool magazines also. How many copies are being sold do you think of national billiard magazines and actually delivered each month? You cannot even find a pool magazine in the stores, look at Barnes & Nobles and try to find it, you might get lucky. I believe a weekend stream of a tournament can reach roughly 2,000-20,000 people in one weekend if not more.

I stream a small one pocket tournament every month on the last Saturday and it can vary from 1,000-4,000 unique viewers depending on what other streams are going on. Take a major tournament and just a backroom presence of TAR and I am sure the numbers in a week were over 50,000 unique viewers, I doubt any magazine out there is circulating 50,000 magazines a month and maybe not that in a year.

Streaming exposure is the most underrated way for people to get there products out right now and I do believe companies will wake up and realize the benefits and some already have, they would not continue to support and sponsor it if they did not get something back out of it.

Okay enough rambling, perhaps I will stream a tournament tonight now that you guys got me going. :grin:

Geno I congratulate you on taking an unpopular stand in this forum of rose colored, pool glasses. That takes a little courage.

Streaming is a good thing for the real big events. But you'll find that the real big events are going to be pay per view more and more. That's because there is enough money involved to make it almost viable.

As for local events the idea that it's good for the pool room owner, eh, not so much.

The first of my good friend Lenny's flawed arguments is that billions of people hit his stream. those are raw numbers bub. If you drilled down you would find that a majority of those visits last less than two minutes. If you want to count that as a potential customer, well, ok. But a real business person doesn't. Many of those ips won't even be real people. The Internet is flush with electronic visits. And that's not even counting that UStream is sending a high percentage of your hits through the website and you just happen to be in the way. These aren't customers. During the course of tuesday night you may get as many as 200 people that are potential customers that might happen by for a few minutes.

Every successful sport since the history of man and womankind starts with maximizing the revenue at the venue. It's this money that is the foundation of supporting a franchise and it's players. When the venue is packed with customers spending money that's when these successful sports start thinking about how can we make more money outside the venue. If people aren't coming then that's a whole other problem. But business 101 - don't give away opportunities for revenue especially if you're already a little underwater.

While it's very cavalier of forum members to offer their anecdotal accounts of how they just know that a customer stops by every couple months and that for sure they spend more money at the people hall because of the streams. Friends that does not pay my monthly light bills if i'm the room owner. I'm not betting my family's income on a couple pool players saying that in their opinion streaming is good for me. If you had to fight your way through in your own business you would better understand that. Because you build it doesn't mean a single stinking person will come.

The next flawed argument is somehow sponsors are not waking up to all this pool streaming financial potential. The pool sponsors know way better than you about ROI. WAY BETTER. And if they're not coming it's because it doesn't work or no one has been able to prove from a business perspective that it works.

I'm not going to even get into the flawed nature of the streams themselves. That loses enough potential sponsors and money alone to finance bigger tournaments.

So you want free streaming. The best thing you can do is support your venue and getting others to attend the tournaments. Help create a situation were the pool room owners can actually make some money. Then you can be in position to spend it for them.

p.s. A couple weeks ago St. Louis and the surrounding area could not watch the hometown Rams game. The reason the Rams only sold 60,000 tickets instead of 66,000. The NFL strictly forbids teams to broadcast games if the venue isn't sold out. Oh by the way, the teams themselves have the ability to buy up those tickets so it can be broadcast to the local fans. Do they? NO

 

[stljohnny]

well, the Rams suck goat balls, so... there's that. however;

the [valid] point that mlalum is making is that a lot of us (myself included) openly admit to not venturing to new rooms, but all have plans to do so... whenever that happens, it's good for the room - for a few bucks, but certainly not enough to support the room. seriously, my 4 or 5 hours of pool time and drinks might cover the cost of the staff for an hour; maybe?

as for sponsors, i would be interested in getting some of their thoughts. For example, Crown Cues get a lot of air time from lenny's stream... I wonder if their business shows an increase in ... anything ... since their sponsorship?

I know I spent a great deal of time on their site after learning about them from Lenny's stream, configuring cues, checking prices, etc... have i ordered one? not yet. but i feel familiar with their services and prices and when someone asks about reasonable custom cues, i tell them about crown cues.

surely there's some advertising ROI that exists... perhaps not as much as they were hoping in the immediate sense, but what about the long run?

 

[Fast Lenny]

Lenny,
I am wondering where you got that info? I am trying to get sponsors for an event and am considering streaming.

Where can I get the info you referenced about 'most underrated way to get their products out right now'?

Sponsers are difficult enough to work with without having to provide feedback on how well their money was spent.

For room owners the only feed back I can see from streaming is viewer numbers. That doesn't necessarily or easily translate into dollars.

We recently ran an ad in a Movie theater that you get one hour of free pool with a paid hour if you brought in your ticket stub. We got a couple of hundred stubs in the first week. The ad paid off with REAL numbers. Feed Back was wonderful.

How is that accomplished with Streaming?

I think for big tournaments that have sponsors on board the stream they see benefits. If you paid say $200 for a spot on the weekend for one of these tournaments which is probably feasible you could get and the stream had only 4,000 viewers which is a small number you would be paying 5 cents for every viewer. I think in the ad world that is great value.

As for the numbers I am sure some streamers would give you the numbers through there Ustream report or website traffic. I will give you some numbers from a small tournament which was a one day thing, this is something you can show sponsors. The numbers are not very high for this as it was not a major event with a ton of top players but think about how many people watch those big events.