Shooting when cue ball is frozen to object ball

[PocketPoint]

Let's say the cue ball and object ball are frozen, and you shoot so the object ball is contacted.

It seems to me that this shot is executed without being called a foul. But then if you blatantly shoot directly into the object ball, a double hit will be called.

It seems to me that if you contact the object ball at all, it is necessarily a double hit. I don't think there is any possible way to contact the object ball and have the cue tip only contact the cue ball once.

Your cue tip will hit the cue ball, which will then be forced the deflect away from the object ball and it has to hit your cue tip again, where else can it go?

I could be wrong, hopefully someone knows what's going on with this shot.

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

It seems to me that if you contact the object ball at all, it is necessarily a double hit. I don't think there is any possible way to contact the object ball and have the cue tip only contact the cue ball once.

Dont shoot straight through it.

 

[Card Slinger]

My league uses BCA rules which states:

3.23 FOULS BY DOUBLE HITS
If the cue ball is touching the required object ball prior to the shot, the player may shoot toward it, providing that any normal stroke is employed. If the cue stick strikes the cue ball more than once on a shot, or if the cue stick is in contact with the cue ball when or after the cue ball contacts an object ball, the shot is a foul. (See Rule 2.20 for judging this kind of shot.) If a third ball is close by, care should be taken not to foul that ball under the first part of this rule.

2.20 JUDGING DOUBLE HITS
When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul.

 

[Bob Jewett]

... It seems to me that if you contact the object ball at all, it is necessarily a double hit. I don't think there is any possible way to contact the object ball and have the cue tip only contact the cue ball once.

Your cue tip will hit the cue ball, which will then be forced the deflect away from the object ball and it has to hit your cue tip again, where else can it go?

I could be wrong, hopefully someone knows what's going on with this shot.

There is only one tip-to-ball contact when the object ball is frozen to the cue ball. This has been looked at with high-speed video and there is a pretty simple explanation. The tip is soft compared to the balls. Your finger tip is also soft. Imagine what happens if you shoot with your finger as the cue stick. As your finger comes forward and makes first contact, it starts to compress against the balls and they just start to move. Your finger compresses further and pushes harder on the balls and they start to move faster. With one ball pushing continuously on the other, they are still in contact. Your finger compresses some more and the balls move faster still. Eventually, the balls have sped up (and your finger has slowed down) to the point that they spring together off your finger. There has been only one finger-to-ball contact.

Tips work the same way -- that's what the high-speed video shows and the technical analysis predicts.

The rules of pool specifically allow you to shoot straight at a frozen ball, regardless of any technical analysis or whether a second hit occurs or not. In snooker and carom billiards, that shot is not allowed. Whether pool should allow it is a different question. It has been part of pool for a long, long time.

If the balls are not frozen, a different rule applies.

 

[dedstroke38]

There is only one tip-to-ball contact when the object ball is frozen to the cue ball. This has been looked at with high-speed video and there is a pretty simple explanation. The tip is soft compared to the balls. Your finger tip is also soft. Imagine what happens if you shoot with your finger as the cue stick. As your finger comes forward and makes first contact, it starts to compress against the balls and they just start to move. Your finger compresses further and pushes harder on the balls and they start to move faster. With one ball pushing continuously on the other, they are still in contact. Your finger compresses some more and the balls move faster still. Eventually, the balls have sped up (and your finger has slowed down) to the point that they spring together off your finger. There has been only one finger-to-ball contact..

That part always made sense to me, but it still seems like is should be illegal. Isn't it a push stroke or something? Yes you might only contact the CB once but since you're hitting into the object ball this greatly slows the CB's acceleration causing you to keep your tip on the ball much longer I'm sure. Plus the CB at this point has hit the OB which seems like it would be illegal to still be in contact with the CB? no idea really

 

[greyghost]

That part always made sense to me, but it still seems like is should be illegal. Isn't it a push stroke or something? Yes you might only contact the CB once but since you're hitting into the object ball this greatly slows the CB's acceleration causing you to keep your tip on the ball much longer I'm sure. Plus the CB at this point has hit the OB which seems like it would be illegal to still be in contact with the CB? no idea really

Its definately not an easy shot, but I'll tell you that you will see it in ONE POCKET more than anything else.

Had to call the shot in a match b/t two players up at the T-Town Classic (gambling not for the tournament) one of the players shot the frozen shot and did so beautifully.

Its all in the stroke if you don't do it right you will double tap the CB, got to be really smooth

 

[dedstroke38]

Its definately not an easy shot, but I'll tell you that you will see it in ONE POCKET more than anything else.

Had to call the shot in a match b/t two players up at the T-Town Classic (gambling not for the tournament) one of the players shot the frozen shot and did so beautifully.

Its all in the stroke if you don't do it right you will double tap the CB, got to be really smooth

Yeah I totally get what you mean when it comes to quality of stroke. For me its not the double hit part as much as the legality in the one contact that you do make when the balls are frozen.

 

[Bob Jewett]

That part always made sense to me, but it still seems like is should be illegal. Isn't it a push stroke or something? Yes you might only contact the CB once but since you're hitting into the object ball this greatly slows the CB's acceleration causing you to keep your tip on the ball much longer I'm sure. Plus the CB at this point has hit the OB which seems like it would be illegal to still be in contact with the CB? no idea really

The tip will be on the cue ball about 40% longer if you shoot straight at the frozen ball. That's a fairly simple result from the physics involved and confirmed by the video. This compares to 20000% longer or more for a real push shot.

The shot (shooting towards a ball the cue ball is frozen to) is specifically covered by the rules of pool, so there's actually no question of whether the shot is legal or not. If you feel the rule should be changed and make the shot illegal, you should also suggest what the rule should be. For example, what should be permitted/required at nine ball if the cue ball is frozen to the one ball?

 

[Bob Jewett]

... Its all in the stroke if you don't do it right you will double tap the CB, got to be really smooth

In my experience, it is easy to hit the cue ball only once in a frozen-ball shot.

 

[$TAKE HOR$E]

Imagine what happens if you shoot with your finger as the cue stick.

I play like this a lot.:grin:

 

[Bob Jewett]

I play like this a lot.:grin:

In case you want to play some one pocket like that, you get 10-8 and the break.:groucho:

 

[dr_dave]

There is only one tip-to-ball contact when the object ball is frozen to the cue ball. This has been looked at with high-speed video

FYI, some good video proof can be found under "fouls" here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/frozen.html​

The rules of pool specifically allow you to shoot straight at a frozen ball

There's even a nifty aiming system that applies to such a shot. :wink: Here's a video demo:

NV B.55 - Bob Jewett's two-times-fuller frozen-cue-ball aiming system​

Regards,
Dave

 

[greyghost]

In my experience, it is easy to hit the cue ball only once in a frozen-ball shot.

Your Bob Jewett....in your experience it should be:smile:

for mere mortals whos cues tremble in thier hands it can be not so easy lol:wink:

 

[cjs]

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