good point. its like so many things in this world - its just personal preference and whatever works for you.
DCP
What If Fundamentals Aren't That Important After All?
- Thread starter JarnoV
- Start date
good point. its like so many things in this world - its just personal preference and whatever works for you.
DCP
In golf you are not trying to put sphere on sphere you are gauging distance and direction from a totally different perspective.
Ask any snooker player, in order to achieve that kind of accuracy you need to look where you want to go, if you didn't the slightest body movement would cause you to fail, this can be compensated for by looking at the OB.
I'm absolutely stunned that anyone would look at the CB on delivery let alone teach it. No wonder you guys need aiming systems.
Thats like driving a race car staring at the steering wheel. You look where you want to go.
Sorry, but I don't think your analogy is persuasive.
For one large set of sports actions, let's call it Category I, the competitor is holding or is attached to a piece of equipment and desires to direct that piece of equipment elsewhere:
- Throwing a baseball;
- Throwing a football;
- Throwing/shooting a basketball;
- Throwing a dart;
- Rolling a bowling ball;
- Shooting an arrow;
- Shooting a gun;
- Driving a race car;
- Riding a race horse.
For another large set of sports actions, let's call it Category II, the competitor holds one piece of equipment and desires to hit another piece of equipment and direct that second piece of equipment to a desired target or with a certain degree of accuracy:
- Hitting a baseball;
- Kicking a football;
- Hitting a tennis ball;
- Hitting a golf ball;
- Hitting a ping pong ball;
- Hitting a badminton shuttlecock;
- Striking a volley ball.
So how about pool/billiards? Isn't it logically a Category II action? We hold one piece of equipment (the cue stick), desiring to strike a second piece of equipment (the cue ball), and send that second piece of equipment to a desired target (a proper hit on the object ball or rail). We are throwing the cue stick in a beautiful underhand motion at the cue ball. So "cue ball last" is appropriate, right?
But I am quite sure that the majority (but by no means all) of the top pool players look at the object ball last. If my analogies above are correct, why does "OB last" work so well for so many players? I believe it is because the cue ball is at rest and we can place our cue stick and bridge hand precisely behind it and thereby treat the combination of cue stick and cue ball as almost one piece of equipment instead of two. Then the cuing action becomes similar to a Category I action -- we are throwing the cue stick/ball at the object ball. So "object ball last" works just fine if the cue stick is always precisely delivered to the cue ball.
So either way -- CB last or OB last -- can work well in pool. I believe analogies with other sports argue more closely for CB last (my Category II above), but just a slightly different way of viewing what's happening can create a good Category I argument.
Yes most definitely...
I have a very non existent fundamental way of shooting ( very Bustyesque ) and yet I can pull off shots with precision and control and power with the best of them. When I tested out shooting the fundamental way they teach you in books, I was still able to pull off the same shots except with less power, but I do believe that if I were to start playing with an "A" typical fundamental style of shooting, that I would in time be able to execute the same shots with as much power as the way I currently shoot. I believe that once a person plays the game long enough that you ultimately understand where and how to strike the cue ball and how to compensate for english etc no matter what kind of style you play whether you have a wavy stroke or a steady one etc. Its all in what you are used to.
I have a very non existent fundamental way of shooting ( very Bustyesque ) and yet I can pull off shots with precision and control and power with the best of them. When I tested out shooting the fundamental way they teach you in books, I was still able to pull off the same shots except with less power, but I do believe that if I were to start playing with an "A" typical fundamental style of shooting, that I would in time be able to execute the same shots with as much power as the way I currently shoot. I believe that once a person plays the game long enough that you ultimately understand where and how to strike the cue ball and how to compensate for english etc no matter what kind of style you play whether you have a wavy stroke or a steady one etc. Its all in what you are used to.
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Mike...You look at the OB last because your cue goes where your eyes go...period. This is why people find it difficult to work with you. You won't believe what they tell you. Tom told you this...Mark told you this...and I told you this (OB last on most shots). Go back and reread (and review your video) about the eye patterns, and Mother Drill 3. Science determines the most objective place to look. Both ways work, but OB last on most shots is preferable for the highest rate of success.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Its OB last b/c the contact on the OB is your target! when looked at it either way you put it the post.
That and the CB is just an extension of your cuestick which is an extension of your hand. you replace the CB with the cuestick and are aiming the cuestick at the OB......
I say the contact spot on the OB is the target B/C if you hit it there it goes in the pocket. The pockets are arbitrary......its the LINES that matter. Just are your lines going through were the center of the pocket is?
Hope I didn't confuse anyone, I'm sure it sounds weird.
-Grey Ghost-
Doesn't sound weird at all. It's basically the view I described in the second-to-last paragraph of the post you quoted.
Sorry, but i disagree with these statements: The cue goes where the eyes go? I am difficult to work with? Tom told me this?
i dont think the cue goes where the eyes go. perhaps in the vicinity but not at the exact aim point. my eyes go to the exact aim point on the CB, where is where i want the cue tip to go. i dont want the cue tip to go to the OB, so why look at it?
most instructors, including you Scott, say that i am very easy to work with. you even gave me kudos for the day we were together.
Tom told me this? no, he didnt, sorry.
and speaking of the eye patterns.....if the last thing you do is take your eyes from the CB to the OB, then you need to refocus before you pull the trigger. this would cause a longer pause and that also seems illogical to me. for some it may work, for me it doesnt.
and i keep saying this over and over and over and over and over and over.......i try and apply everything an instructor tells me, but if it just doesnt work for me then i scrap it. some say that is not listening. to me, its just plain logic and common sense.
a road player once told me the best lessons he's ever had were the ones he learned the hard way in the pool halls and taverns. i would say there is probably something to that.
Mike
The best way is to through self discovery....
Like lessons you learn in life...no matter how much a person warns you and gives you advice from their own experiences, you really wont truly understand unless you experience it for yourself. Same applies for a lot in pool. You can have the so called top instructors teach you THEIR method or ideas of how this and why that, but you truly will not grasp that knowledge unless you figure it out for your self by practicing and by that I do not mean hitting balls mindlessly...practice with purpose as one of my mentors told me. In my opinion this is the way to do it. It's good to take a persons suggestions and keep them in mind but you have to figure things out for yourself. Everything I learned wasn't taught to me...It was through my own trials and tribulations on that green felt that I began to understand things how it all works..from my stroke to how I am aim...only then when I read those pool books again did I get that OH moment where the light bulb came on and I fully understood what the author of whatever pool book was trying to convey to me. To all those just starting out in this game...don't try to take any of our suggestions as THE way to go...use them strictly as guidelines that will help assist you in your own ways rather than using them as an exact rule to follow.
Like lessons you learn in life...no matter how much a person warns you and gives you advice from their own experiences, you really wont truly understand unless you experience it for yourself. Same applies for a lot in pool. You can have the so called top instructors teach you THEIR method or ideas of how this and why that, but you truly will not grasp that knowledge unless you figure it out for your self by practicing and by that I do not mean hitting balls mindlessly...practice with purpose as one of my mentors told me. In my opinion this is the way to do it. It's good to take a persons suggestions and keep them in mind but you have to figure things out for yourself. Everything I learned wasn't taught to me...It was through my own trials and tribulations on that green felt that I began to understand things how it all works..from my stroke to how I am aim...only then when I read those pool books again did I get that OH moment where the light bulb came on and I fully understood what the author of whatever pool book was trying to convey to me. To all those just starting out in this game...don't try to take any of our suggestions as THE way to go...use them strictly as guidelines that will help assist you in your own ways rather than using them as an exact rule to follow.
This is good for discussion purposes. I don't necessarily think you refocus because you are already lined up on the shot when you get down to place the cue tip up to the CB. When you take your eyes from the CB to the OB you are already in line and do not need to refocus or realign. Now you are ready to take your short 2-3 practice swings and hit that spot not giving your brain too much time to refocus or think since you are already zoned in on that spot.
Every once in awhile, especially on some more difficult shots I have adjusted my aim during my stroke which I know is not good. If I am not aligned properly and my brain recognizes this WHILE doing my practice strokes I will correct my aim to hit that spot. I know this is not recommended, as I should take a step back and redo my process, but I have had this happen before. Has anyone else "corrected" their aim during their stroke when their brain has told them the angle is wrong during your practice stroke? It is interesting my body is able to correct this aim during my stroke to hit the "new spot". It doesn't happen very often at all, but is interesting nonetheless.
What I love about this post above all is, it's true. I've been playing for two years and through sheer determination, practice, observation and muscle memory, my game has exponentially improved. I started in APA after one year of play as a 3 and am now top performer on my team and in the league as a 6 after two seasons.
I have had guidance through higher performers (7's/8's/9's, pro's), but what i've noticed above all is that different things work for different people. Some things work better for some people than others. Most people who think they're right, aren't, even though they've been playing for 15 years. Or maybe it's right for them, but not you.
Strokes, stances, bridges, and fundamentals are a perfect example. Take a look at Reyes, Bustamante, DeLuna, Pagulayan, Strickland, MCCREADY (with a sidearm stroke, mind you) etc etc etc. Each a force to be dealt with, yet each with such variety in how they deliver, the choices they make, and what they decide to do in sticky situations.
Some people learn better than others. You can talk my ear off all day and not get to me. But let me watch one video with Efren vs. anyone else and i'll learn more about pool in that hour long video than you would talking to me for a month, guaranteed.
Besides, no one did anything great being like everybody else. Or without opposition and ridicule...not doing everything by-the-book, or "playing like a snooker player is the perfect way to play" garbage only fuels the drive to prove it wrong.
I have had guidance through higher performers (7's/8's/9's, pro's), but what i've noticed above all is that different things work for different people. Some things work better for some people than others. Most people who think they're right, aren't, even though they've been playing for 15 years. Or maybe it's right for them, but not you.
Strokes, stances, bridges, and fundamentals are a perfect example. Take a look at Reyes, Bustamante, DeLuna, Pagulayan, Strickland, MCCREADY (with a sidearm stroke, mind you) etc etc etc. Each a force to be dealt with, yet each with such variety in how they deliver, the choices they make, and what they decide to do in sticky situations.
Some people learn better than others. You can talk my ear off all day and not get to me. But let me watch one video with Efren vs. anyone else and i'll learn more about pool in that hour long video than you would talking to me for a month, guaranteed.
Besides, no one did anything great being like everybody else. Or without opposition and ridicule...not doing everything by-the-book, or "playing like a snooker player is the perfect way to play" garbage only fuels the drive to prove it wrong.
exactly what I was gonna say. To an average joe like me fundamentals are an absolute. Some people do have a god given ability to play this game that for what ever reason they are going to be great no matter what. Watch willie hoppie ...I would never tell someone to play side arm like that but he had god given ability that we can only dream of.
OB last, CB last?
A few years ago, Ralf Souquet in front of several AZBers, admitted that he looks at the cue ball last and not just on jump shots and break shots.....
I've watched him and other personally acclaimed CB last shooters and observed that they "sometimes" look at the CB last but not always. Don't know what to make of that but it is what it is.
For me, looking at the OB last, I can sometimes feel/see that the object ball is going to hit close to the side rail and can get that corrected before pulling the trigger. I believe that extra time gazing at the OB allows me to correct my aim. If I look at the CB last, the benefit I see is that I no longer have to be concerned with making the object ball and simply have to stroke straight and stay with the speed of stroke I have already chosen. I've tried this some but at this time I still prefer OB last.
A few years ago, Ralf Souquet in front of several AZBers, admitted that he looks at the cue ball last and not just on jump shots and break shots.....
I've watched him and other personally acclaimed CB last shooters and observed that they "sometimes" look at the CB last but not always. Don't know what to make of that but it is what it is.
For me, looking at the OB last, I can sometimes feel/see that the object ball is going to hit close to the side rail and can get that corrected before pulling the trigger. I believe that extra time gazing at the OB allows me to correct my aim. If I look at the CB last, the benefit I see is that I no longer have to be concerned with making the object ball and simply have to stroke straight and stay with the speed of stroke I have already chosen. I've tried this some but at this time I still prefer OB last.
That is probably a true statement for most of us. i totally think i look at the CB last 100% of the time, but who knows, i might even look at the OB last on certain shots and not even realize it.
DCP
I am not saying one way will work and the other will. If you read my first sentence I stated that I do not agree or disagree. Nor did I say any of the players I listed "weren't really that good." :slap: Just trying to find out if such different techniques can perform the same type of stroke shots.
One reason to look at the object ball last is so that you can immediately see the result of your shot -- how full did the cue ball land on the object ball and was it the right fullness to put the object ball in the pocket? That's immediate feedback about your performance. I think that's important for learning.
I have to disagree about the talent issue. The top players have played hours upon hours of pool to learn their craft. An interesting read that has been brought up before concerning talent is "Talent is Overrated" by Geoff Colvin. The book brings up many good points about so-called natural talent and it may be more of hard work and deliberate practice than talent.
IMHO, developing good (whatever constitutes them) fundamentals allows for a quicker development of ones game. Top players are doing most things right or otherwise they wouldn't be top players.
Instead of debating the importance of fundamentals. Shouldn't we debate what makes the best fundamentals. Everyone is different so everyone with vary in their stance and alignment and stroke delivery. But having a starting point that you will find in most books will lead you in the right direction. If you have a knowledgeable/ qualified person that can see the adjustments that are needed.
99% of brand new students have pretty bad basics. The better ones are usually blocking their stroke with their body and this contributes to their stroke woes... or they have floppy bridges and a bad setup.
I'm constantly getting thanked for transforming players games for the better after they study and implement the info on my dvd set, powerful pool world class fundamentals.
I don't say this because I teach it. I teach it because I say it.
Your talent combined with solid technique is awesome.
As you improve your fundamentals the mental game becomes much bigger....until then poor fundamentals are a HUGE factor because they constantly stop runs in their tracks.
Best,
Max
I have a free video boot camp you can sign up for at maxeberle.com
I'm constantly getting thanked for transforming players games for the better after they study and implement the info on my dvd set, powerful pool world class fundamentals.
I don't say this because I teach it. I teach it because I say it.
Your talent combined with solid technique is awesome.
As you improve your fundamentals the mental game becomes much bigger....until then poor fundamentals are a HUGE factor because they constantly stop runs in their tracks.
Best,
Max
I have a free video boot camp you can sign up for at maxeberle.com
Hey Max, how ya doing? funny you show up here because yesterday i watched your ESPN Ultimate 9-Ball Challenge Match from 1998 or 1999 against Ralf Souquet.
anyway, was just wondering what your take is on which do you look at last. the CB or the OB? not what you do, but rather what you feel is the proper way? or is there really a cut and dried way here, and its personal preference?
Mike