What If Fundamentals Aren't That Important After All?

So I think we allknow what proper fundamentals are....they are the grip, stance, elbow position, stroke, aim tech, breathing, etc shown in every pool book. This is how you teach the game as an instructor. You can teach Joe No-stroke how to run balls by preaching this.

Them after years of tuning this up, what is the intermediate-advanced lesson? This is where something like SPF or something similar could come in. Basically, turning a decent conscious stroke into an insanely repetitive unconscious dead stroke. This is where if a person can deliver the tip perfectly, with a conscious stroke that we have to kill the focus on the fundamentals. Going back to rework the grip hand when cue action is ok, is probably not the best use of time.

So unless you have a problem with cue delivery, I say scrape fundamentals.

Now, I think the focus needs to be how do we build unconscious stroke based on conscious clues.

For me, I have 4 semi-conscious check points:
1) pause to confirm aim
2) slow draw back
3) watch tip hit CB
4) finish point

Honestly, I would like to get to 1.....pause to check aim.
 
nksmfamjp said:
So I think we allknow what proper fundamentals are....they are the grip, stance, elbow position, stroke, aim tech, breathing, etc shown in every pool book. This is how you teach the game as an instructor. You can teach Joe No-stroke how to run balls by preaching this.

Them after years of tuning this up, what is the intermediate-advanced lesson? This is where something like SPF or something similar could come in. Basically, turning a decent conscious stroke into an insanely repetitive unconscious dead stroke. This is where if a person can deliver the tip perfectly, with a conscious stroke that we have to kill the focus on the fundamentals. Going back to rework the grip hand when cue action is ok, is probably not the best use of time.

So unless you have a problem with cue delivery, I say scrape fundamentals.

Now, I think the focus needs to be how do we build unconscious stroke based on conscious clues.

For me, I have 4 semi-conscious check points:
1) pause to confirm aim
2) slow draw back
3) watch tip hit CB
4) finish point

Honestly, I would like to get to 1.....pause to check aim.
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In regards to #3, all people I've ever talked with say to stare at the object ball instead of the cueball. Not sure which way is better.
 
bobalouiecda said:
I spent over 25 years attempting to improve my martial arts techniques.
For years at three different schools of martial arts, mostly Japanese, I had a difficult time with the rigid repetitive practice of the techniques. It was through the basic fundamentals that I prepared myself to react instinctively and to move on to the next plateau. Once the fundamentals are mastered, variances in the approach to succeed are possible.

I have spent about 50 years on the pool table. At about 18 years old I was fortunate to be taught by an amazing talent. His billiard techniques were very rigid and basic not unlike the martial arts. Within a year or so my game and especially my stroke improved dramatically. At first I was uncomfortable, but persisted and soon my hand eye coordination was drastically better. It was freaky how natural my game became. I could immediately know where to place my feet in relation to the shot with no adjustment. I felt like my mind was programmed. From this point on the learning process progressed so fast.

My last Sensei knew the day it became clear to me. He understood the years of practicing the proper fundamentals led to this point. He told me that now he could open my head and fill it with information. Most individuals hit the wall and will never understand what it takes to get to the next level. Inconsistency and bad habits in practice lead to a lack of confidence when put to the test.
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a good friend of mine said the same thing about not being a fan of ridged movements in martial arts.

it's my personal opinion that good fundamentals is the key to playing decent. going further with your game has more to do with natural ability and understanding how the balls move on the table.

having solid punch throwing fundamentals will make you a solid punch thrower it won't make you a great fighter
 
no fun in fundamentals

overemphasis on fundamentals are for people that are unathletic, or too lazy to practice getting to know their own stroke.

it is perhaps at best a basis for good play, but not the be and end all.

realistically all you have to do is deliver a littlle white ball from point A to point B, how hard could it be.....:grin: jok
 
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but i totally disagree with a few
"Often-Taught" fundamentals, such as:

1) You simply MUST look at the object ball last! no way, ridiculous.
2) You HAVE to keep that elbow up! not hardly.
3) As one instructor told me...."Here's How YOU Should Shoot!" Shooting his way hurt my back and neck.

DCP
 
Spimp13 said:
Elaborate on #1 please.
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i have had some instructors tell me you absolutely HAVE to look at the object ball last on your stroke vice the cue ball. i have had other instructors tell me the opposite.

lately it seems some players are saying "Why look at the OB last when the CB is what you are hitting?"

my belief is the CB is the only thing thats going to move. the OB isnt going anywhere. making sure you put the cue tip right on the exact aim spot on the CB is the main thing as far as i am concerned. and looking at the OB last isnt going to allow for that.

just my $.02.

DCP
 
what a genius idea! there are so many myths about not only the game but learning in general. the OP's argument is absolutely correct. so many people get well intentioned coaches who are trying to force them into staring at a certain spot, have an arm just right and so on and the player ends up hating the game. If a new player were to have endless time and endless patience then learning through precise form would be the best and the return on investment wouldn't matter, but in the real world focusing on it is almost counterproductive.

That being said, I learned pool by playing and gambling 16 hours a day with no instruction for many years. (no, it is possible, if you dropped out of school at 13 and had no life and an obsessive personality) After a few years I was winning about 2 out of 10 tournaments and losing as many times as winning when gambling. Then an old man showed me my 10 or so major flaws. (head raising up, elbow moving, eyes in the wrong spot, turned wrist, splayed elbow, tight grip, loose bridge, sloppy stance, back hand too far forward, incorrect follow through, etc)

I was told the fastest way to fix everything was to stop playing other people and games and do nothing but a straight shot drill. being slightly goofy myself I said what the hell. I spent the next several months shooting nothing but a straight stop shot for a few hours, along with an hour every night in front of a mirror at home just practicing the stroke until my arm was going to fall off. He would hold my elbow and critique other parts of the form and we also video taped it.

After that I was winning 90% of the tournaments and started winning thousands matching up. The obsessive time spent perfecting the stroke and form stopped my bad habits from popping up under pressure. A cool moment was when I looked around the pool hall one day and realized five guys were by themselves practicing my line up stop shot drill. (they all quit after several days and went back to playing before it became effective imo) There are correct ways to learn that would be ineffective for the average player. Only a true degenerate pool junkie would have the time or desire to learn in such an accelerated manner, for the majority of people I totally agree with the OP.
 
JoeW said:
While all that is true, in my thinking, I also think that there are some fundamental issues that are not well understood in today’s pool playing world. I suspect there is much more to know about the importance of the grip, emphasizing the right hand for aiming, and learning how to think through and visualize a pool shot among other topics.

I think there is too much emphasis on theory as related to physics and too little emphasis on real world experiments with regard to what works.
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Joe,
I am in agreement, especially when it comes to instructional books. I believe that Mark Wilson has made it his life's work to change this. He has studied the game for almost 40 years, and has spent the last 15 years or so working on his book; which will give unprecedented attention to the biomechanics of the stroke, and the ways in which orthodoxy is an advantage.

I'm hopeful that the book will be available in the next 6-12 months (AZB discussions on these topics will certainly be more interesting once his material is available...it is VERY hard to argue with his premises...he is only concerned with "what works", and he's seen it all). I've been privileged to read it throughout its development, and I can assure you that there is nothing in print even remotely like it. I think that it will become the standard textbook for players wishing to incorporate orthodox principles into their game. In my view orthodoxy is a weapon, and if my opponent doesn't have it, all the better for me.
 
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hi Williebetmore, long time no see.

hows the Gold Crown? Steve D. is coming down to my place next weekend to put new Powder Blue Simonis 860 on my GCIV. first time in 2.5 years i will have new cloth.

Mike
 
A wise instructor taught me to look at the cb last. When I heard some fundamentalist mentio OB last was best, my position went haywire, so I went back to CB last. When in stroke, I can make som crazy hard shots, so I think I'll be ok, checking that fundamental at the door. It used to be all the rage to say 90% of the aiming happened on your approach to the shot. For me, this is pretty accurate. I still check how I'm slicing the cb at my aim pause.
 
I'm absolutely stunned that anyone would look at the CB on delivery let alone teach it. No wonder you guys need aiming systems. :rolleyes:
Thats like driving a race car staring at the steering wheel. You look where you want to go.
 
Philthepockets said:
I'm absolutely stunned that anyone would look at the CB on delivery let alone teach it. No wonder you guys need aiming systems. :rolleyes:
Thats like driving a race car staring at the steering wheel. You look where you want to go.
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and i am completely stunned anybody would look at the OB on delivery. thats like a golfer looking down the fairway when he hits the ball.

i guess, like so many things in life, we just have to agree to disagree.

DCP
 
Bob Jewett said:
Then you have never really watched Allison Fisher play pool. (And I pick her out just as one of the most orthodox examples of many.)
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i agree Bob. i guess what i am really trying to say is that if someone wants to look at the OB last, thats fine as long as it works for them. its just personal preference to me. the only thing i 100% wholeheartedly disagree with is when an instructor or anyone tells somebody that you ABSOLUTELY HAVE to look at the OB last. to me that is ridiculous and just plain wrong.

Mike
 
DrCue'sProtege said:
and i am completely stunned anybody would look at the OB on delivery. thats like a golfer looking down the fairway when he hits the ball.

i guess, like so many things in life, we just have to agree to disagree.

DCP
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Poor analogy imo, very different objectives.
I don't know how long you have been playing but I suggest you make the change now before you discover the severe limitations of this method and it's too late to change.
 
I am not saying if fundamentals are or are not important, but can someone with not so "good" fundamentals perform the same shots as someone with "great" fundamentals?

For example can Alan Hopkins perform the same shot as Corey did in the US OPEN a few years back where he drew the cue ball back to the side rail and back to the short rail?

Or Gabe Owen who has a tucked in stroke, can he spin the cue ball as much as Bustamante?
 
I am not saying if fundamentals are or are not important, but can someone with not so "good" fundamentals perform the same shots as someone with "great" fundamentals?

For example can Alan Hopkins perform the same shot as Corey did in the US OPEN a few years back where he drew the cue ball back to the side rail and back to the short rail?

Or Gabe Owen who has a tucked in stroke, can he spin the cue ball as much as Bustamante?
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Can someone with great fundamentals play as great or stroke the ball like Keith McCready with that side arm thing going on. Or Earl Strickland with his crossover elbow dropping wrist twisting delivery? But I guess these guys weren't really that good :slap:
 
Philthepockets said:
Poor analogy imo, very different objectives.
I don't know how long you have been playing but I suggest you make the change now before you discover the severe limitations of this method and it's too late to change.
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thats a perfect analogy. you are hitting a ball with wood/metal. you watch what you are hitting, not where you want it to go. its a no-brainer. and these severe limitations dont seem to have much of a negative effect on Ralf Souquet, Johnny Archer, and others.

its personal preference. absolutely no way could it ever be determined that one way is better than the other. its been debated a zillion times on here, probably will again sometime.

DCP
 
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