Why CTE is silly

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JB,

Hopefully...for the LAST time: your personal testimonials (or variations, like "IT WORKS!") without specifics are meaningless--UNLESS they are being made to somehow who KNOWS you very well, and highly respects your personal JUDGMENT on something like this.


And your personal assessment based on incomplete information and no practical experience is even MORE meaningless.

So where does THAT leave us?

Right back at the beginning.

You: CTE is silly and doesn't work.

Me. CTE is not silly and does work.

You: I don't know the steps to use CTE but from the bits and pieces I am sure it doesn't work.

Me: I know the steps to use CTE and for me it's works.

You: You're deluding yourself. Even though I can't perform CTE and don't know the steps, it defies physics and as such can't work.

Me: I live in the world subject to physical laws and it works so therefore no physics are being defied.

You: Then you are deluding yourself. It must be subconscious adjustment.

Me: Well if it is then great because I am playing better.

You: You aren't playing better because of CTE.

Me: I have been playing better since learning CTE so CTE is the reason.

You: I don't know how to do CTE but I know it doesn't work and you are delusional.

Me: It works for me and I am happy making more shots and tougher shots more consistently.

You: Your personal experience doesn't matter.

Me: What is YOUR personal experience with CTE? You have neither a subjective one nor an objective one because you don't even know how to do it.

You: For the last time I am a Berkely trained Molecular Biologist with a deep rooted understanding of science. You must listen to me because I can pick up fragments of a method and determine whether it's valid or not.

Me: I understand your intellectual position why don't you go get some practical training and then come back to report and see if your foregone conclusion matches your real experience?

You: I don't need to know that, I know how everything works for everyone from the comfort of my chair.

Me: Enjoy your chair, I will be making great shots using CTE.


That about sums it up for me. Did I get anything wrong?
 
2000 posts and still no resolution.

That right there speaks volumes.

No plausible explanation on the 3 control shots, and no explanation on the combo.

Really not worth my time anymore.
 
That about sums it up for me. Did I get anything wrong?

I don't know, I couldn't force myself to read it.

But I know that what I offer is a RATIONAL DISCUSSION of the particulars, and I know that what you offer is AVOIDANCE of the particulars. I know that you offer vagueness and ambiguity, and I offer what FACTS are known and public, and an analysis of those facts that stands in the open for anyone to rationally CRITICIZE....and I know that no CTE advocate has taken the OPPORTUNITY to rationally criticize anything I've posted.
 
I don't know, I couldn't force myself to read it.

But I know that what I offer is a RATIONAL DISCUSSION of the particulars, and I know that what you offer is AVOIDANCE of the particulars. I know that you offer vagueness and ambiguity, and I offer what FACTS are known and public, and an analysis of those facts that stands in the open for anyone to rationally CRITICIZE....and I know that no CTE advocate has taken the OPPORTUNITY to rationally criticize anything I've posted.

I for one think it's funny, after 2000 posts, you know NOTHING. Your offer is a RATIONAL DISCUSSION of the particulars, but you don't know the particulars, so what exactly are you offering?
 
I was responding to Maniac's idea that anything I say should STOP him from trying CTE IF he really desires to KNOW what it is and how to use it.

John,

FWIW and with all due respect, I was taught a form of CTE in a class of about eight students roughly 2-1/2 years ago by a renowned former champion and certified BCA instructor whose name has come up in this thread many times. The last day of class was mostly spent on us being taught an aiming system (it was called something other than CTE) that had Hal Houle's name attached to it. I did not take to it well, nor did I hear anything positive from anyone in the class about it (I did hear some negative comments about it). I think it hurt the "systems" credibility that on that particular day, the instructor couldn't pocket two balls in a row while attempting to demonstrate the "system" to the class. I know that I sometimes have trouble pocketing balls while "teaching" certain things to those who have asked for help, so I personally did not hold this against the instructor nor the "system". It just wasn't for me. I wanted other things out of the class. My aiming has always been fine. If my eyes were better (re: younger :D) and my stroke wasn't so wobbly, I'd be a formidable foe for a lot of players. I am quite sure I miss more balls due to the eyesight and wobbles than I do from aiming wrong. Quite sure! So, in reply to your quoted post, I have tried CTE and do not desire to know what it is and how to use it. I have no problems whatsoever in seeing where to aim and how to pocket a ball. It's relatively easy and comes to me quickly, usually before I even have my feet in position in my stance I already know how to pocket the ball. Then, the eyes and wobbles kick in :embarrassed2:.

I am not against CTE or any other aiming method. They all have their place in the pool world. But, what works well for some may not work so well with others. It's that way with a LOT of things in life. Yours and others views, while vastly different, are so much appreciated by people like myself who strive to learn all they can about the great game of pool.

You keep on keepin' on with your CTE as it seems to be your "cup of tea", so to speak. And.....keep on making those great cases. They are IMO, some of the finest cases in the industry!!!

Good luck and good shooting, my friend!!!

Maniac
 
Hi,
This is for shots from 1 degree to 29 degrees. For shots from 31 degrees to 90 degrees it doesn't work...more study is required.

What I like about CTE having tried it and wanting to make it work for me.

I can discern the Center of the CB and the Edge of the OB and the contact point on the OB that sends the OB to the target/pocket.

I can aim the center of the CB at the edge on the equator (3 o’clock or 9 o’clock) of the OB that is on the side opposite the target/pocket – CTE[Line].

I can find the contact/impact point on the equator of the OB that sends the OB to the target/pocket. I concentrate on the distance from that point to the original edge, and then I parallel shift the cue until it is shifted that distance away from the edge of the OB.


I then pivot back from my bridge until the tip of the cue is aimed at the center of the CB and then I shoot the shot. This gets me close to where the ghost ball should be. English can be applied pre shot if desired.

I use double distance aiming though for it has fewer steps – no pivot. I think that CTE is helpful to those that miscalculate where the center of the OB is - which is necessary for double distance aiming.

As the OB appears to get smaller as it is located farther away from the CB and the shooter’s eye/s, the distances from the edge of the OB and the contact point gets smaller and thus the outward shift is proportionately smaller which allows the “system” to adjust for the for-shortening/perspective and still sends the CB to where the GB should be.

The bridge is what you are comfortable with, say 12.0” or so behind the CB – no change necessary.

Try it, you might like it.

Thanks for your time….wasted?
:smile::thumbup:
 
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Well, the opinion: "if somebody is using a "system" that they believe works for them, then it WILL work for them" can be, and is, wrong. One very sad and awful example: there are millions of cancer sufferers who "believe" their cancer will be cured (because....they prayed, or because "it can't happen to them," or because they have "a great doctor," or because their brother-in-law survived cancer); and they believe it up to the day they die of it. I remember a good friend of mine telling me (mostly in a morphine induced frenzy), when she weighed about 90 lbs--half of which, it seemed, was made up of the tumor in her abdomen--that she was sure she was going to get better. She was dead about a week later.

I'm sorry to have to tell you but, "belief" on its own has SEVERE limitations. It's true that it can sometimes brush away doubt and confusion (usually to be replaced by a delusion), but beliefs can NEVER change reality. (apparently only a relatively small proportion of the population actually understands that!) CTE doesn't AIM at anything, yet it's users believe it "tells them where to aim." I'm afraid, in a bind (like in a match-winning/losing situation), on a difficult shot, when their mind has gone blank, and they're left only with the specific RULES of CTE to follow....it will let them down MISERABLY.

You are forgetting the very simple basic measure for this and any aiming system, does the user make more shots or not?

I'm afraid, in a bind (like in a match-winning/losing situation), on a difficult shot, when their mind has gone blank, and they're left only with the specific RULES of CTE to follow....it will let them down MISERABLY.

This point needs to be especially addressed.

Because here you are fearmongering. Which is especially abhorent for someone whose intent is stated as simply wanting to get a specific definition of the method so you can reconcile it with your knowledge of geometry.

You don't know how this works in practice. You don't know the specific steps. You have never stood behind a shot and applied the CTE method to aim or align yourself to the shot.

Yet you feel as if you can make predictions on how well the system will or will not work for people.

On the contrary you have plenty of people IN THIS THREAD who testify that the using the system gives them confidence ESPECIALLY on the critical shots.

So you make these fearmongering predictions based on having no clue how the system works and expect people to listen to you while at the same time telling the the people who are getting REAL WORLD practical results that they are delusional.

How does that make sense exactly?
 
Here's a handy little post from the "Scott Lee in Dallas teaching CTE" thread:




Looks like it's GREAT, and the DVD wouldn't even be necessary! And it looks like those here who describe "subtleties," and who say it takes a while to "get" and to fully comprehend are just WRONG!

Funny thing is....I'm wondering: Have people like Blackjack signed a NON-DISCLOSURE agreement? I doubt it VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY much.

Apparently these things that can be learned for $100 bucks, in a VERY SHORT TIME, somehow imbue in the buyers with the determination to keep this very easy and simple technique a PERFECT SECRET for the rest of their lives! And never post it, say, on a forum!** :D :D :D

Yes. It's a very very strange world--where BS just seems to....WORK BETTER than the real thing. Isn't that fascinating? I know it has always fascinated the crap out of me!


**Or never just tell their "close friends" who tell their "close friends," etc., until one of THEM posts it on a forum.

On the internet, I've had a policy for over 15 years. If you have something to ask me, something to say, something to insinuate, pick up the phone and do it directly. I'd respect that.

FYI, I don't teach CTE or any variation of CTE. Scott Lee will even tell you that himself. We had a brief conversation about that last night during his visit to my home. In the short amount of time I have tried SAME Aim (albeit with the limited information that I have about this system) it warrants the endorsement that I gave it. Chances are that I will not teach it. I will refer students to Randy - as I have done for over 20 years. That is done out of respect, not because I might get something in return. If you actually "knew" me, I wouldn't have to tell you that.

If an instructor has a specific area of expertise, I refer students to that instructor to ensure that they learn from the best teacher. Many instructors here can verify that I do that quite often. It's not about keeping secrets or disseminating information within a "good old boys" club. It is about working together to ensure that what is being taught is accurate and useful information that can be perfected through a cooperative effort. Part of that effort includes a commitment to students to ensure that they have the best training available to them. I take that commitment seriously, and I will stand up to anybody that tries to insinuate otherwise.
 
As the OB appears to get smaller as it is located farther away from the CB and the shooter’s eye/s, the distances from the edge of the OB and the contact point gets smaller and thus the outward shift is proportionately smaller which allows the “system” to adjust for the for-shortening/perspective and still sends the CB to where the GB should be.

The bridge is what you are comfortable with, say 12.0” or so behind the CB – no change necessary.

Try it, you might like it.
Thanks for your time….wasted?
:smile::thumbup:

Another pivot system is born. Nice LAMas! :smile:

Best,
Mike
 
cookie man:
I for one think it's funny, after 2000 posts, you know NOTHING.
If nobody learns anything about a system after 2,000 posts (in this latest thread), shouldn't you think there's something "funny" about the system?

pj
chgo
 
Another pivot system is born. Nice LAMas! :smile:

Best,
Mike
Did you notice that he could describe it clearly in a few sentences, including its limitations? That's how you know it's a real system, and whether it's worth something to you.

pj
chgo
 
John,

FWIW and with all due respect, I was taught a form of CTE in a class of about eight students roughly 2-1/2 years ago by a renowned former champion and certified BCA instructor whose name has come up in this thread many times. The last day of class was mostly spent on us being taught an aiming system (it was called something other than CTE) that had Hal Houle's name attached to it. I did not take to it well, nor did I hear anything positive from anyone in the class about it (I did hear some negative comments about it). I think it hurt the "systems" credibility that on that particular day, the instructor couldn't pocket two balls in a row while attempting to demonstrate the "system" to the class. I know that I sometimes have trouble pocketing balls while "teaching" certain things to those who have asked for help, so I personally did not hold this against the instructor nor the "system". It just wasn't for me. I wanted other things out of the class. My aiming has always been fine. If my eyes were better (re: younger :D) and my stroke wasn't so wobbly, I'd be a formidable foe for a lot of players. I am quite sure I miss more balls due to the eyesight and wobbles than I do from aiming wrong. Quite sure! So, in reply to your quoted post, I have tried CTE and do not desire to know what it is and how to use it. I have no problems whatsoever in seeing where to aim and how to pocket a ball. It's relatively easy and comes to me quickly, usually before I even have my feet in position in my stance I already know how to pocket the ball. Then, the eyes and wobbles kick in :embarrassed2:.

I am not against CTE or any other aiming method. They all have their place in the pool world. But, what works well for some may not work so well with others. It's that way with a LOT of things in life. Yours and others views, while vastly different, are so much appreciated by people like myself who strive to learn all they can about the great game of pool.

You keep on keepin' on with your CTE as it seems to be your "cup of tea", so to speak. And.....keep on making those great cases. They are IMO, some of the finest cases in the industry!!!

Good luck and good shooting, my friend!!!

Maniac

And this is fine. THIS is exactly what I want to hear in a CTE thread.

Tried it - didn't work for me - life goes on.

As opposed to this;

Never tried - never will - doesn't work.

Because against that I say -

Tried it - works for me - happy.

---------------------------------------------------------

For me that's the essence of the whole thing.

What's that saying, "don't knock it until you've tried it"?

I mean that's about it in a nutshell. If you try it and for some reason it doesn't stick then knock it all day if you want.

I have an Ipod touch. I read all the reviews, pro and con. I wasn't going to buy one because I do not like Apple's closed loop system. Too much of a con. However I could not KNOCK Apple's product until I tried one.

My wife bought one for me. It's awesome. It's also jailbroken which allows me a little more control than Apple allows.

I have an Android phone. I read all the reviews and was on the fence about buying one or buying an Iphone because I really like the idea of having the internet available to me all the time. I also like the Swiss Army Knife aspect. Lot's of people raved about their Android phones, a few people had a few negative things to say.

So an opportunity came up to TRY one and I took it for a few days and liked it. I bought it. After using it for a week I found several things about it that I really do not like but overall it's a great device.

The point being that I can now speak from experience with both devices rather than speaking from a position of speculation through whatever information is available from others on the devices.

Beyond that it's not important for me to know the physics behind the devices, only that they work for me.

Ok last thing, regarding your experience with whatever the system is that the instructor was trying to teach you all I can say is that GetMeThere and Pat and others are right when they say that CTE is fragmented.

A good example is me. The only aiming system that Hal taught me which stuck is one I call the quarters. Basically it is aiming the edges and center of the cueball to the quarter slices on the object ball. ONLY I got it backwards between Denver and Greeley. So I have been doing it in reverse for 10 years.

I think that it's kind of like open source software - or Android - once it's out there in the wild people start messing with it and changing things here and there and while what they do is easily understandable to them it's not the way they were taught and so consequently they don't impart the original information to the next guy.

THIS is a problem. I am a part of that problem as is Dr. Dave Alciatore and anyone who doesn't have a really really really good grip on the material who tries to teach other people.

The rough equivalent would be the guy who teaches GB without explaining Contact Induced Throw. It's only half the story.

So in your case it's impossible for me to say from the outside looking in whether you got good info or not.

Pat, Lou, Mike and even GetMeThere are right in that until someone can lay down any version of CTE that can be taught remotely through words, diagrams, or videos which any halfway competent player can "get" from those instructions then it will remain a mysterious and controversial method.

But that doesn't make it invalid or silly. It just makes it less accessible.
 
If nobody learns anything about a system after 2,000 posts (in this latest thread), shouldn't you think there's something "funny" about the system?

pj
chgo

On the contary. People have learned that there are many people who learned it and use it with success.

People have learned that there are well respected and qualified instructors out there who have invested the time to figure out HOW to teach the system.

And they have learned that there is a small group of tenacious detractors who have stated they will NEVER attempt to learn the system because they feel as though it's nonsense despite all the personal experience testimony that is contrary to that assertion.

People have learned that original premise of the thread:

'CTE is silly and invalid'

Is wrong.

Because it is being successfully taught and used by many around the country.
 
Hi again.

Cut angles from 31 degrees to 90 degrees are more complicated.

The straight in shot - shoot center to center, and the 30 degree cut requires no pivot either, just shoot CTE. For 35 degrees, most know that you need to send the CB just off of the outside edge of the CTEL, so the shift is toward the inside edge of the OB pre-pivot. After the pivot, the CB is sent just off of the OB to where the GB should be.

The other extreme is the 89 degree cut where the shift is aimed at the center of the OB pre-pivot. Since the shift is large, the CB is now aimed and sent “way” outside of the OB after the pivot to where the GB should be.

In the middle is the 47 degree cut (to be verified by CAD) which is shifted from the CTEL to ½ way between the edge of the OB and it’s center or ¼ ball nearest to the CTEL. The 40 degree cut would require a shift the cue to 1/8 ball inside of the CTEL.
The 60 degree cut would require a shift of 3/8 ball inside of the CTEL…etc..

This is the reciprocal of the contact point, and why it is more difficult, but the good news is that the cue is shifted to points on the equator of the OB rather than shifts to the outside of the OB edge – more discernable?

As the OB appears to get smaller as it is located farther away from the CB and the shooter’s eye/s, the distances from the edge of the OB and the contact point gets smaller and thus the inward shift is proportionately smaller which allows the “system” to adjust for the for-shortening/perspective and still sends the CB to where the GB should be.

The bridge is what you are comfortable with, say 12.0” or so behind the CB – no change necessary.

Try it, you might like it.

Thanks for your time…wasted?
:smile::thumbup:
 
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On the contary. People have learned that there are many people who learned it and use it with success.

People have learned that there are well respected and qualified instructors out there who have invested the time to figure out HOW to teach the system.

And they have learned that there is a small group of tenacious detractors who have stated they will NEVER attempt to learn the system because they feel as though it's nonsense despite all the personal experience testimony that is contrary to that assertion.

People have learned that original premise of the thread:

'CTE is silly and invalid'

Is wrong.

Because it is being successfully taught and used by many around the country.
In case you didn't notice, John, you still haven't said anything direct about CTE itself. "It isn't silly" seems to be about as good as it gets for CTE "info". And that's just plain silly.

pj
chgo
 
In case you didn't notice, John, you still haven't said anything direct about CTE itself. "It isn't silly" seems to be about as good as it gets for CTE "info". And that's just plain silly.

pj
chgo

There is plenty of information out there to get people going in the right direction. There are plenty of people here on this board willing to help others in personal interactions.

Just because you demand a blueprint doesn't mean one has to be supplied to you.

Especially not for the price you are paying.

If one were to go to an instructor who promises to teach them CTE then certainly the student has every right to ask for details and should get them.

Not a manual per se, but certainly whatever questions they have should be answered in the lessons.

On here you and others are trying to bully people into revealing something that they don't wish to in this format. Then indignantly you jump to the conclusion that it's because they can't. It's certainly your right to make such assumptions but it doesn't mean you are right.

Let's break it down like this to simplify things;

If you and Randy were in the pool room and a student came to you and said he was interested in learning about CTE and Randy had offered to teach it to him for $100 in one hour with a money back guarantee if the student was not satisfied what would you say to that student?

What if the student asked you to teach them?
 
I for one think it's funny, after 2000 posts, you know NOTHING. Your offer is a RATIONAL DISCUSSION of the particulars, but you don't know the particulars, so what exactly are you offering?

I think it's funny, after 2000 posts, that you haven't addressed a SINGLE CRITICISM of any of the CTE detractors. You've made COUNTLESS negative comments about PEOPLE, but none about "the particulars."

Again and again I've mentioned the KEY particular: CTE doesn't AIM at anything, therefore, it can't be an aiming system. Sadly, I have the impression that you don't even know what I MEAN by that--and, I dread to imagine, it sometimes seems that even the BIG WHEELS, like RandyG and StanS don't know what I mean by that--surely, they're completely MUM on the topic.

Maybe you would like to discuss it, so I'll spell it out a bit and see if you want to take it anywhere:

1) ALL necessary information about OB and CB can be contained in TWO pieces of information: a) A line drawn between them, indicating their separation distance and which is on which end, b) the DISTANCE and ANGULAR relationship of that line to any stationary part of the table. With that information it's possible to know EVERYTHING that's necessary (well, except if other balls are in the way of pockets, etc., you know what I mean).

2) The heart of the game is pocketing OBs. The pockets are STATIONARY, but the balls can be ANYWHERE. So, that line "a" from item #1 can be ANY LENGTH (within the table limits) and angled ANYWHERE on the table--but the pockets are always in the SAME place.

3) It is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to know both a and b (by one or another description) in order to hit the OB to make it go in the pocket, and it's ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to methodically and systematically make the OB go in the pocket WITHOUT knowing a and b (excepting unimportant conditions, like when both balls are frozen together, with the OB hanging in the pocket--you know what I mean).

How do I KNOW that it's absolutely necessary to know both a and b? Because as I said, line a can be ANYWHERE, so obviously, it's necessary to know b in order to direct the OB to a pocket. Knowing that obvious fact doesn't require any geometry (other than a rough concept of what a table looks like). It's pure common sense. You're not gonna be able to drive to a destination unless you know where to go. This is JUST the same.

4) Advocates of CTE have said that it's not NECESSARY to have information b, and that ALL INFORMATION NECESSARY can be found through a series of alignments and pivots that deal only with line a (and the actual OB and CB). I've heard this from many sources; I'll just mention one: Dave Segal's latest video of pocketing balls with half the table covered. It was his direct INTENTION to demonstrate that information b IS NOT NECESSARY AND IS NOT USED with CTE. Unless he is trying to LIE or MISREPRESENT CTE, then I have to take him at his word.

5) To say that information b isn't required to pocket balls is just like saying directions aren't necessary to go where you want to in your car--after all, the world is "stationary" like a pool table, and cars and people can go anywhere on the surface, just like balls on a pool table. CTE is like saying that if you have a set of instructions: make 2 lefts, go 1.6 miles, then make 3 rights, that you can drive to ANYWHERE YOU PLEASE. Well, that's just fu**ing stupid, now isn't it? Actually, it's more like saying that, if you draw a line from your grill to the front door of the car ahead of you, then turn left, you'll end up at the pizza parlor--OR the dentist; whichever you happen to WANT to go to at the time :D

6) Then let's go a bit further. Some versions of CTE require or allow for an initial input for the "approximate angle" that you want the OB to go off on to make the pocket. Now that's good, because it will tell you "approximately" where to aim--how accurate that will be will depend on how accurately you can estimate the angle, and how accurately you know where on the OB to hit with the CB for that angle. THEN, nothing FURTHER from CTE can bring you any CLOSER to exactly pocketing the ball, unless MORE INFORMATION about b, the location of the pockets, is considered. But none has been alluded to by CTE advocates.

It's simple: If you don't AIM at a pocket, by using DIRECT INFORMATION about the LOCATION OF THE POCKET in relation to the OB, then you do not possess the NECESSARY INFORMATION to hit the OB in such a way as to put it in the pocket.

THAT IS SIMPLE, ELEMENTARY SCHOOL LOGIC and REASONING. A child could understand it.

The bizarre fact is this: Dave Segal's video of pocketing balls without "knowing where the pockets were" serves as ABSOLUTE PROOF THAT CTE IS BUNK, because it pretends to show, and claims as necessary (for proof of CTE) that it is possible to POCKET BALLS without regard to the position of the pockets. That is not so, just as it is not possible to drive to a destination without knowing where the destination is.

Any small child could tell you that. Sometimes, you have be an ADULT to get so confused about things.
 
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