BCA 8 ball rules---frozen ball

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

CueTable Help




In a local tournament (BCA rules) player A is shooting stripes. The 9 ball is frozen to the rail. Player B says since the 9 ball is frozen to the rail, that rail is dead---meaning that if player A shoots the cue ball in to the 9 and the cue ball then hits the same rail, it is a foul. The intention is to just nick the 9 ball and leave the cue ball safe behind the 9.

My understanding is that this is not a foul. What is correct? Thanks in advance.

Tennessee Joe
 
I never get these right

but, I thought if after contacting the OB, that the CB touches a rail(any rail) that there was no foul. I think there might be a different set of opinions if the OB (frozen to the rail) retouches the original rail, while the CB does not contact a rail after contacting the OB.

But, I'm usually wrong. Ask the Ex-wife-she'll tell ya.
 
You are correct, your opponent needs to learn the rules.

1.19 Legal Shot (AR p. 75)
1. For a shot to be legal, the first ball contacted by the cue ball must be a legal object ball. After that contact:
a. any object ball must be pocketed, or;
b. any object ball or the cue ball must contact a cushion.
2. If the ball used to meet the cushion contact requirement of Rule 1.19.1(b) is declared frozen to a cushion at the beginning of the shot, then that ball must leave the cushion it is frozen to and then:
a. contact a cushion other than the one to which it was frozen, or;
b. contact another ball before it contacts the cushion to which it was frozen.
3. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is declared frozen immediately prior to the shot.

The cue ball is not frozen to the rail to begin the shot, therefor it is a legal hit if it contacts the cushion after making contact with the object ball.

Kick him in the nuts.
 
Frozen

CueTable Help




In a local tournament (BCA rules) player A is shooting stripes. The 9 ball is frozen to the rail. Player B says since the 9 ball is frozen to the rail, that rail is dead---meaning that if player A shoots the cue ball in to the 9 and the cue ball then hits the same rail, it is a foul. The intention is to just nick the 9 ball and leave the cue ball safe behind the 9.

My understanding is that this is not a foul. What is correct? Thanks in advance.

Tennessee Joe
Assuming you shoot your own group bumping the nine and sending cue to same rail is good hit. Rule says when shooting frozen balls either the object ball or cue must go to a rail. Nine is frozen ball and it would have to go to another rail. Okay for cue to go to same rail as frozen ball.
 
Player B is mistaken; player A is correct. If the cue ball contacts the 9 then hits any rail, the shot is not a foul. What A could not do is just roll up on the 9, making contact but then not hitting another rail. Since the 9 is already frozen to the foot rail, that rail is not available for the 9 to contact.

Interestingly, some people believe that in this situation one could roll into the 9 hard enough for the 9 to come off the foot rail, then be driven back into it, and that that would be a legal shot. However, the rules stipulate that you can't do that--the OB would have to contact a different rail than the one it's frozen to.
 
Just verifying what everyone else has said.. I used to think like player B too.. I was wrong, but have since saw the light.. Hit is GOOD!
 
Interestingly, some people believe that in this situation one could roll into the 9 hard enough for the 9 to come off the foot rail, then be driven back into it, and that that would be a legal shot. However, the rules stipulate that you can't do that--the OB would have to contact a different rail than the one it's frozen to.

Not according to 2b below, if indeed these are the applicable rules.

You are correct, your opponent needs to learn the rules.

1.19 Legal Shot (AR p. 75)
1. For a shot to be legal, the first ball contacted by the cue ball must be a legal object ball. After that contact:
a. any object ball must be pocketed, or;
b. any object ball or the cue ball must contact a cushion.
2. If the ball used to meet the cushion contact requirement of Rule 1.19.1(b) is declared frozen to a cushion at the beginning of the shot, then that ball must leave the cushion it is frozen to and then:
a. contact a cushion other than the one to which it was frozen, or;
b. contact another ball before it contacts the cushion to which it was frozen.
3. An object ball is not considered frozen to a cushion unless it is declared frozen immediately prior to the shot.

The cue ball is not frozen to the rail to begin the shot, therefor it is a legal hit if it contacts the cushion after making contact with the object ball.

Kick him in the nuts.
 
What if the 9 ball was frozen to the long rail, separated by the middle pocket. Is the long rail considered to be one rail or two?
If the 9 was hit, moved past the middle pocket and settled in on the same rail, is that a fair hit or is the entire rail considered to be dead.

The reason I ask is I have had this question come into play as well. VNEA rules.
Thanks.
 
dead rail

What if the 9 ball was frozen to the long rail, separated by the middle pocket. Is the long rail considered to be one rail or two?
If the 9 was hit, moved past the middle pocket and settled in on the same rail, is that a fair hit or is the entire rail considered to be dead.

The reason I ask is I have had this question come into play as well. VNEA rules.
Thanks.

There is no such thing as a dead rail when it comes to shooting at an object ball other than a lot of tables we play on having them and even if the ob was frozen and you blasted it and it came back off a few inches and hit another ball and went back into the same rail that would be legal.
 
What if the 9 ball was frozen to the long rail, separated by the middle pocket. Is the long rail considered to be one rail or two?
If the 9 was hit, moved past the middle pocket and settled in on the same rail, is that a fair hit or is the entire rail considered to be dead.

The reason I ask is I have had this question come into play as well. VNEA rules.
Thanks.

VNEA I cannot speak to.

Under both WSR and BCAPL rules - legal shot.

With the 2008 edition, WSR dropped the distinction between rails and cushions and the old pre-2008 "cushion attached to a separate rail" princilple. Under current WSR, the applicable rules are:
  • WSR 8.1, which includes the cushion as a part of the rail. The long rail is just one big rail, and for the purposes on WSR 8.4 there is no distinction between the two cushions attached to it.
  • WSR 8.4, which states that a ball is considered to be driven to a rail if it "leaves the rail and returns".
Therefore, in the process of crossing across the side pocket opening, the OB has left the long rail and then returned, and is considered driven to a rail.

BCAPL rules still retain the distinction between cushions and rails. And before June 1, 2009, BCAPL still retained the old "cushion attached to a separate rail" principle. However, as of June 1, 2009, BCAPL also eliminated that principle, and the shot in question is now legal. Under current BCAPL rules, the applicable rule is, as previously quoted, 1.19.

Specifically, because the BCAPL still retains the distinction between cushions and rails (6 cushions, 4 rails), in the process of travelling across the side pocket the OB has met the requirement of BCAPL 1.19.2(a).

The exact shot in question is decribed and discussed in BCAPL Applied Ruling 1.19, Situation 4.

On a side note, the difference between WSR and BCAPL in this situation is the requirement of BCAPL 1.19.2(b), which requires the OB to contact another ball if the same cushion it was frozen to is going to be used to satisfy the requirement. WSR has no such provision. Therefore if the OB were to leave a cushion and then return to the same cushion without contacting another ball because of an unlevel table or ungodly rail gully, that shot would still be legal under WSR (it has left the rail and returned), but a foul under BCAPL 1.19.2(b).
:smile:

Buddy Eick
BCAPL National Head Referee
BCAPL Director of Referee Training
Technical Editor, BCAPL Rule Book
bcapl_referee@cox.net

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http://www.playbca.com/Downloads/Rulebook/CompleteRulebook/tabid/372/Default.aspx

* The contents of this post refer to BCA Pool League (BCAPL) Rules only. The BCAPL National Office has authorized me to act in an official capacity regarding questions about BCAPL Rules matters in public forums.
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Player B is mistaken; player A is correct. If the cue ball contacts the 9 then hits any rail, the shot is not a foul. What A could not do is just roll up on the 9, making contact but then not hitting another rail.

Since the 9 is already frozen to the foot rail, that rail is not available for the 9 to contact.

Interestingly, some people believe that in this situation one could roll into the 9 hard enough for the 9 to come off the foot rail, then be driven back into it, and that that would be a legal shot. However, the rules stipulate that you can't do that--the OB would have to contact a different rail than the one it's frozen to.


TatCat <--- Preparing best Lee Corso impersonation...

Not so fast, my friend! Plese see my previous post, in which is described how those shots quite possibily might be legal...
 
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