CTE Marketing

[sfleinen]

Exactly right. The test is a year from now when the people who bought the video report back. JoeyA is already beginning to do so. Petey has - and I'm sure others will as well. Pool is outcome-based and the DVD will be rated by whether or not the net outcome is better after the video vs. before (assuming they work at it and practice). Nobody is saying the DVD will turn someone into a pro overnight... it's not a magic pill.

Dave

I completely agree! I will be doing a review as well -- in as objective a manner as I can muster. This statement rings true: "and the DVD will be rated by whether or not the net outcome is better after the video vs. before (assuming they work at it and practice)." That part I bolded is, IMHO, a little too soft-peddled (it's HUGE!), and, again IMHO, its soft-peddled nature is what gets a lot of these threads in trouble. Contrarily, some of the advocates have stated -- outright -- that it will revolutionize one's playing virtually overnight. That at the end of an instruction session, the player "will" come out of it a ball or two higher in his/her ability. This is just plain wrong. (A sidenote: "placebo" effect does come into play whenever learning anything new -- it's amazing how that works. The real trick is the long haul -- placebo effects will have long ago evaporated; so, has that "one or two balls higher in ability" stuck around? That why what Dave wrote above -- the bolded part -- is so important.)

While I think what Roger wrote has the wrong conclusion (it's NOT pure marketing -- I believe there is value), at least in part some of the things he writes are true. Namely, that the CTE advocates have been their own worst enemies -- they created the very situation they're balking at precisely because of their [mis/mal]marketing. Make statements like "'all' of the pros are using this," and "those that don't, will be doormat fodder for those that do," and "if you adopt this, you 'will' go up 'x' number of balls in ability," and it *will* catch up with you.

Very much looking forward to my copy of the DVD,
-Sean

 

[BasementDweller]

If I didn't know better, I might believe that the ENTIRE CTE FIASCO was invented by an MBA grad student as his thesis project in marketing...

Either that....or it was actually L Ron Hubbard who invented CTE!

For the record, L Ron Hubbard used BHE not CTE, although he always struggled with those long straight shots.

Also, it was well known in Scientology circles that he loved the APA and thought the BCA sucked. He thought the BCA paid out too much money to the players Lastly, before he disappeared he mentioned something about the break being worth 2 balls in one pocket (whatever that means).

 

[dr_dave]

... Dave Alciatore makes use of free video clips to promote his DVD.

... every few months I review one of the VEPS discs

I'm glad my "marketing" worked for you, and I'm glad you apparently have found value in the marketed product.

I wish all things that are "marketed" had value, but this isn't always the case.

IMO, the jury is still out on CTE ... at least until Stan's DVD comes out.

Regards,
Dave

 

[randyg]

I'm glad my "marketing" worked for you, and I'm glad you apparently have found value in the marketed product.

I wish all things that are "marketed" had value, but this isn't always the case.

IMO, the jury is still out on CTE ... at least until Stan's DVD comes out.

Regards,
Dave

Who's jury?
SPF=randyg

 

[canwin]

A very nice positive articule. Roger represented both sides quite well.

Marketing comes under several persuasions and is the main stand of the American sales force. Because of Marketing, I have many satisfied customers and Pool School will continue to flurish.

Thanks Roger
SPF=randyg (that's Marketing by the way)

Yep, they'll continue to flurish alright ..

 

[Johnnyt]

I completely agree! I will be doing a review as well -- in as objective a manner as I can muster. This statement rings true: "and the DVD will be rated by whether or not the net outcome is better after the video vs. before (assuming they work at it and practice)." That part I bolded is, IMHO, a little too soft-peddled (it's HUGE!), and, again IMHO, its soft-peddled nature is what gets a lot of these threads in trouble. Contrarily, some of the advocates have stated -- outright -- that it will revolutionize one's playing virtually overnight. That at the end of an instruction session, the player "will" come out of it a ball or two higher in his/her ability. This is just plain wrong. (A sidenote: "placebo" effect does come into play whenever learning anything new -- it's amazing how that works. The real trick is the long haul -- placebo effects will have long ago evaporated; so, has that "one or two balls higher in ability" stuck around? That why what Dave wrote above -- the bolded part -- is so important.)

While I think what Roger wrote has the wrong conclusion (it's NOT pure marketing -- I believe there is value), at least in part some of the things he writes are true. Namely, that the CTE advocates have been their own worst enemies -- they created the very situation they're balking at precisely because of their [mis/mal]marketing. Make statements like "'all' of the pros are using this," and "those that don't, will be doormat fodder for those that do," and "if you adopt this, you 'will' go up 'x' number of balls in ability," and it *will* catch up with you.

Very much looking forward to my copy of the DVD,
-Sean

Placebo effect is huge in these sort of things. A lot of the time it's just the extra focus that helps your game, not the aiming system. Johnnyt

 

[canwin]

just a little viscous

I believe that you are correct. I was just trying to be nice, possibly a little viscous.



SPF=randyg

Just playing with you, as I don't take any of this seriously, but don't let it become a visious cycle.

 

[dr_dave]

I'm glad my "marketing" worked for you, and I'm glad you apparently have found value in the marketed product.

I wish all things that are "marketed" had value, but this isn't always the case.

IMO, the jury is still out on CTE ... at least until Stan's DVD comes out.

Regards,
Dave

Who's jury?

The "jury" is all of the people who doubt many of the unsubstantiated (and sometimes ridiculous) claims made by CTE proponents over these many years.

The "jury" is all of the people who wonder if CTE is as amazing as some people imply it is.

The "jury" is all of the people who want to know exactly what "the official (or latest) version of CTE" is and find out exactly how and why it works for the people who claim they use it effectively.

Stan's DVD release is indeed an important and long-awaited milestone in the dramatic saga of CTE.

Regards,
Dave

 

[JB Cases]

The "jury" is all of the people who doubt many of the unsubstantiated (and sometimes ridiculous) claims made by CTE proponents over these many years.

The "jury" is all of the people who wonder if CTE is as amazing as some people imply it is.

The "jury" is all of the people who want to know exactly what "the official (or latest) version of CTE" is and find out exactly how and why it works for the people who claim they use it effectively.

Stan's DVD release is indeed an important and long-awaited milestone in the dramatic saga of CTE.

Regards,
Dave

Well, in the REAL world, a jury is made up of ones peers. You are an instructor. Many of your peers, most with far longer careers than you and with "bigger" names among players, have already made the decision that CTE is not only valid but that it's worth incorporating into their teaching programs.

You are not the jury. You are on the outside looking in. Despite having an OPEN door and invite to get ALL the information you CLAIM to want you have declined that invitation repeatedly.

The JURY is not still out on CTE. Well respected instructors from around the country are teaching CTE or variants of it despite your best efforts to defame them.

Maybe, as a scientist, you should try to understand what your peers in the billiard instruction business already know.

 

[JB Cases]

I have to preface this with a disclaimer that Roger and I are cool and this is NOT a slam on him, only on the content of the article.

Out of the whole thing this statement struck me the most,

"And there you have it, dear readers. CTE is, and always has been, a marketing tool. I won't even call it a product. The product is still pool, and CTE is just one of the newer tools being used to help sell more pool. "

Assuming Roger is right here may I ask what is wrong with "helping to sell more pool"?

This is what I have said all along that CTE fuels more pool playing. I understand that the article was meant derisively but at the end of the day what's the downside to Hal's activities in this area?

He promoted ways to pocket more shots. His intention has always been to help people become better players.

What is wrong with that?

As for the idea that it was free from him but it's somehow bad if other people charge to learn it that is also ludicrous. What other people do with the information that is given to them is their business. People pay to learn the ghost ball system.

What Hal gives you for free is a framework to work in. If you seriously want to teach it to others then you need to be prepared to handle all sorts of opposition from ingrained methods of aiming that run counter to Hal's methods. You have to be able to identify and correct people's stroke and perception. In other words you have to learn to teach.

Hal was already retired when he started running around showing people the systems he developed. He could afford to do it for free. Other people can't if they want to do it right and see the systems developed into things which are more tangible and accessible to the average person.

The next thing that struck me is what are CTE user "marketing"? That question was asked.

Easy.

We are marketing HAPPINESS.

Making shots on the table makes us happy as players. Stepping up and making those hard shots, making those weird shots, making those critical shots in addition to being more consistent on all shots makes us happy.

The goal in all POCKET billiard games is to pocket the winning ball. Generally the way to get there consistently is not by waiting for your opponent to leave it hanging in the pocket. No, the way to get there is to be the one who pockets more balls and sets up the winning shots.

The reason people like me promote (market) CTE (for free) is because we use it to pocket more balls and thus get more winning shots.

And by doing that we are happier when we play pool.

 

[lfigueroa]

Well respected instructors from around the country are teaching CTE or variants

of it despite your best efforts to defame them.

Maybe, as a scientist, you should try to understand what your peers in the billiard instruction business already know.

It's a few guys, here and there, trying to sell their branded version of an obscure and questionable aiming system.

Lou Figueroa

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

It's a few guys, here and there, trying to sell their branded version of an obscure and questionable aiming system.

Lou Figueroa

I see ZERO questionable about CTE, as I have worked with CTE, and I personally got results!

 

[cookie man]

The "jury" is all of the people who doubt many of the unsubstantiated (and sometimes ridiculous) claims made by CTE proponents over these many years.

The "jury" is all of the people who wonder if CTE is as amazing as some people imply it is.

The "jury" is all of the people who want to know exactly what "the official (or latest) version of CTE" is and find out exactly how and why it works for the people who claim they use it effectively.

Stan's DVD release is indeed an important and long-awaited milestone in the dramatic saga of CTE.

Regards,
Dave

Some of these ridiculous claims are no doubt the same claims made about any other system when first being discussed. The other ridiculous claims as you call them will not seem so ridiculous soon.

"The "jury" is all of the people who want to know exactly what "the official (or latest) version of CTE" is and find out exactly how and why it works for the people who claim they use it effectively".
It is amazing you say this and also claim to have talked to Stan, Hal, Spidey. I wonder why it is that you can't comprehend what they told you. Do you not want to learn, are you unteachable, or is it not in writing for you to copy and paste on your website.
Stan's dvd is by some opinions long over due, in a way I still wish he wasn't making it.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Exactly right. The test is a year from now when the people who bought the video report back. JoeyA is already beginning to do so. Petey has - and I'm sure others will as well. Pool is outcome-based and the DVD will be rated by whether or not the net outcome is better after the video vs. before (assuming they work at it and practice). Nobody is saying the DVD will turn someone into a pro overnight... it's not a magic pill.

Dave

Well....It can't be marketing....because marketing is not allowed on his forum......

I got a chuckle from your bolded part.

I used to work in the Direct Marketing Industry....(aka Infomercials)....I was an account rep and worked with Inventors (and/or thier hired "consultants"). I reviewed thier marketing content (infomercial) and also reviewed and often re-wrote sales scripts that the CSR's used when some sucke.....er I mean customer called in to buy whatever was being advertised on TV....

I have seen the full spectrum from great ideas/products to some of the most rediculous products I have ever seen....Sometimes it actually amazed me when I saw that more than one person actually called in......
(Little Giant Ladder was da nuts)

Anyway....what I was getting at....the bolded part of your quote reminded me of something that always made me laugh when reviewing any infomercial that was some kind of pill or drink mix for weight loss and or proper digestive function....

Always always always in the advertisement (and on the bottle) for these products...there is always a phrase that appears or is heard somewhere........"when taken with proper exercise and/or diet"

It is amzing that phrases like that are necessary to avoid fraud claims.....but they are....Otherwise you will get the morons that say..."Hey I took the pill but I did not lose any weight....what gives"????..........Uh....what gives (out) is your pants from your fat arse because you eat 4 big macs topped with a chocolate shake...and you would not think about missing out on the fries.......supersized of course.....and then you "work it off" by playing some football for 4 hours....as your layed back in your video game reclyner....(that is broken due to the weight capacity being surpassed)

People are smart.....society is stupid.

What was even more funny is that your probably did not even need the pill.....just the "diet and exercise"

Thanks for the laugh...

 

[JB Cases]

It's a few guys, here and there, trying to sell their branded version of an obscure and questionable aiming system.

Lou Figueroa

Nice.

The "few" guys include one national champion who also happens to be a founding member of the Texas Express Tour which expanded into the McDermott Cues National Nine Ball Tour.

Another is a renowned traveling performer and instructor who brings pool to hundreds of non-pool venues per year.

Another is an instructor whose son is a junior national champion, someone that professional players go to for coaching.

And another is a well respected author and inventor who has been involved in pool for 20 plus years helping people to to play better pool.

Combined they have more than 150 years of experience playing and teaching the game of pool.

In addition many other lesser known instructors have chimed in throughout these threads to lend their support of CTE/Hal's Methods as something they teach.

You can't spin this into a negative Lou. The fact is that some heavyweights in the field of pool instruction have weighed in on Hal's side and the list keep growing. You would need a U-haul to carry all the trophies that just these four people have won in their careers and a semi-truck trailer to carry all the ones that their students have won.

 

[champ2107]

Marketing: the total of activities involved in the transfer of goods from the producer or seller to the consumer or buyer, including advertising, shipping, storing, and selling.

"Marketing" isn't necessarily ONLY about money. For example, ideas can be marketed in a forum--which is itself a "market" for ideas.

So, marketing is everything about a transferable entity (in some kind of marketplace) that ISN'T about the creation, development, or production of the entity itself. Since CTE is nothing of substance (it's a delusion put forth as a system that pretends to produce a significant and accurate result), then the only thing it CAN BE is...some form of marketing.

Everybody agrees: Hal Houle was the first person to talk about (what is now called) CTE; and there's no doubt that even exclusive to Hal, what was being promoted was continually changing. Therefore, it was NEVER something clearly definable, it was NEVER "any...thing." It was always PURE marketing, and NOTHING of substance.

But it always had at least a little bit of a "hook." Even though it didn't exist or do anything, at least some people still WANTED IT (and there are LOTS of such products--I've continually mentioned astrology as an example. Certainly pet rocks is another famous example)! So now, a bit of marketing has FINALLY reached the marketplace--and money will start to change hands (before that, it's only currency was in ideas, and the only reward it could supply it's marketer was "fame" as the originator or promoter of a useful idea).

What I find most fascinating about the whole thing is that the MORE CLEARLY WORTHLESS an idea, the more likely it is to gather at least a small group of fanatics. CTE claims to be an "aiming system" to put balls in pockets--without the requirement to note where the pockets are. NO IDEA could be more ridiculous, or have less value. Yet....it has found some small marketing traction.

When ideas have some small bit of merit, it's easy to lose interest because the SMALLNESS of the merit is easily perceived--and people don't want to collect a SMALL bit of value. But when something has NO MERIT it sort of takes on an allure. The thing has to be IMBUED with the personality of the user, for its merit to shine through If things clearly have no merit, yet somehow gain marketing traction, then it must be (people unconsciously conclude) because it contains some MAGIC--that it's BEYOND ordinary thinking and utility.

It's intersting: a useless idea somehow shows marketing TRACTION in the idea stage...and the MARKETING part LIVES, even though the idea is useless. And so now somebody will make a meager buck off it--even though it has no substance...

If I didn't know better, I might believe that the ENTIRE CTE FIASCO was invented by an MBA grad student as his thesis project in marketing...

Either that....or it was actually L Ron Hubbard who invented CTE!

seriously, this tool s back?

 

[BRKNRUN]

seriously, this tool s back?

Wow....He is back for one post and already you are calling him names????

He must have some serious chain pulling skills to get you to call him names right off the bat...

 

[champ2107]

wow you make points as well as he does :yikes:

 

[JB Cases]

Let's not get into the name calling. Everyone has their opinons and that's all they are. Nothing that anyone says on this forum about CTE, for or against, is going to make it more popular or kill it. Nothing. There is not any one single person that can change it in any possible way.

It exists and will continue to get traction no matter what. Eventually it will settle in as one method to learn to aim and people won't think it's even worth discussing.

So let the people who want to be on the negative side be negative without labeling them. If you like CTE and use it jsut counter with that and leave it at that. Testimonials count more from positive people.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Lou:
It's a few guys, here and there, trying to sell their branded version of an obscure and questionable aiming system.

John:
The "few" guys include one national champion who also happens to be a founding member of the Texas Express Tour which expanded into the McDermott Cues National Nine Ball Tour.

Another is a renowned traveling performer and instructor who brings pool to hundreds of non-pool venues per year.

Another is an instructor whose son is a junior national champion, someone that professional players go to for coaching.

And another is a well respected author and inventor who has been involved in pool for 20 plus years helping people to to play better pool.

Combined they...

...total four.

You can't spin this into a negative Lou.

And you can't spin it into a "phenomenon", John. The fact that it's so important to you doesn't make it more than a minor matter even in the small backwater of society we call "the pool world".

pj
chgo