CTE/Pro One, the lesson.

[JoeyA]

Posts like this are a recurring part of every thread about pivot systems. The cheap shots are putting good people on TILT. Any thread with Cte in the title is fair game. I'll bet a fishing lure with "CTE" printed on it would be popular with all kinds of trollers, too.

Best,
Mike

Mike,
I don't believe management has turned a blind eye to what is happening. I believe they see the cheap shots being taken by a few and are laying in wait.

Prudent management says that you allow the culprits to hanG themselves.

You know I would never attempt to antagonize another poster simply because I thought it was "humorous" to do so ESPECIALLY if I knew my humor was going to ridicule, incite or sleight in any way. These people know EXACTLY what they are doing and are very good at it.

And yes, they've been doing it for a long time. I've kept my mouth shut about it for a long time and have taken their "ribbing" without as much as a whimper. I've just gotten good and tired of their "gang mentality".

Most people are not willing to step up and call them out. I'm doing so because others have been injured by their constant ridiculing and good and decent people are avoiding the Main Forum.

This happened many years ago on the newsgroup rec.sport.billiard and I called some people out for the same behavior.

This was before the person known as FL who would often go on tilt to a degree that is hard to fathom. Did others push his buttons to the point of no return.....yes. Could he have chosen a different method to answering the "needling"? Of course, but he didn't and the forum went further into the gutter and is seldom visited by but a few.

At one time rec.sport.billiard was the FAVORITE meeting place for pool afficianodos. I called out a few people for driving off good an decent people form rec.sport.billiard and I'm doing it here.

I'm tired of seeing the same old group of tormentors terrorizing the Main Forum. Yes, I'm a little steamed and don't like people being driven from the forum. Jim was just ONE of the FEW WHO SPOKE UP. Others, just leave and don't come back. I'm proud of Jim for speaking up and any others who have gotten tired of being poked, needled and ridiculed.

What did that man shout? "I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANY MORE". lol

 

[JoeyA]

An update on my student with CTE/Pro One

A subsequent lesson revealed something that I had forgotten about. While my friend and student had some difficulties making the simplest of CTE/Pro One shots at first, he has now improved "slightly".

When he informed me of that, I was excited for him and we talked in depth about the possibility that this could be a long road and we proceeded with another 15 minute lesson, where I learned a most disturbing thing.

This student CANNOT see the center of the cue ball. It blew me away when I finally realized that. Apparently, he is simply unable to see the true center of the cue ball and he has been compensating his entire lifetime for that visual distortion. He says that now that he knows how much he is off from the center, he will attempt to compensate for that.

I don't know how well that will work but it is a start. If he can overcome this obstacle, it will be a miracle. I haven't had much experience with other people correcting their vision problems and don't know what to do for him.

If some of you have had SUCCESS in CORRECTING a person visual perspective as far as the center of the cue ball is concerned, please offer your suggestions. This person is 6'3" for what it is worth and a few years older than myself. He's hustled pool and plays at a high C level. His game has always been inconsistent but we will try to help and if you have known of successful methods of correcting the visual perspective, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks in advance.

JoeyA

 

[lfigueroa]

You have driven me off azb... for the most part. I haven't posted or read a post in about a week.

Gee, I don't know. I just looked at your stats and recent post history and you seem to be doing just fine Hang in there -- there are things a lot worse in life than people who disagree with you about an aiming system.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BRKNRUN]

A subsequent lesson revealed something that I had forgotten about. While my friend and student had some difficulties making the simplest of CTE/Pro One shots at first, he has now improved "slightly".

When he informed me of that, I was excited for him and we talked in depth about the possibility that this could be a long road and we proceeded with another 15 minute lesson, where I learned a most disturbing thing.

This student CANNOT see the center of the cue ball. It blew me away when I finally realized that. Apparently, he is simply unable to see the true center of the cue ball and he has been compensating his entire lifetime for that visual distortion. He says that now that he knows how much he is off from the center, he will attempt to compensate for that.

I don't know how well that will work but it is a start. If he can overcome this obstacle, it will be a miracle. I haven't had much experience with other people correcting their vision problems and don't know what to do for him.

If some of you have had SUCCESS in CORRECTING a person visual perspective as far as the center of the cue ball is concerned, please offer your suggestions. This person is 6'3" for what it is worth and a few years older than myself. He's hustled pool and plays at a high C level. His game has always been inconsistent but we will try to help and if you have known of successful methods of correcting the visual perspective, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks in advance.

JoeyA

Just tell him to align his cue with the "base" of the CB....(where it touches the cloth)....That is center CB.....All he then has to do is follow the verticle axis up.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

A subsequent lesson revealed something that I had forgotten about. While my friend and student had some difficulties making the simplest of CTE/Pro One shots at first, he has now improved "slightly".

When he informed me of that, I was excited for him and we talked in depth about the possibility that this could be a long road and we proceeded with another 15 minute lesson, where I learned a most disturbing thing.

This student CANNOT see the center of the cue ball. It blew me away when I finally realized that. Apparently, he is simply unable to see the true center of the cue ball and he has been compensating his entire lifetime for that visual distortion. He says that now that he knows how much he is off from the center, he will attempt to compensate for that.

I don't know how well that will work but it is a start. If he can overcome this obstacle, it will be a miracle. I haven't had much experience with other people correcting their vision problems and don't know what to do for him.

If some of you have had SUCCESS in CORRECTING a person visual perspective as far as the center of the cue ball is concerned, please offer your suggestions. This person is 6'3" for what it is worth and a few years older than myself. He's hustled pool and plays at a high C level. His game has always been inconsistent but we will try to help and if you have known of successful methods of correcting the visual perspective, I would love to hear about it.

Thanks in advance.

JoeyA

JoeT's 3rd Eye is the only way, imo. I had/have the same prob. I think it's a physical disability as far as I'm concerned. I'll "always" have that illusion based on my head positioning and the angle of my face to the CB. The 3rd Eye merely made me cognizant of this illusion and helps me correct it. I have to be aware of "center ball" on every single shot. I've trained myself to run a "check" if you would on every shot during my preshot routine.

Anyways, the white fork is the answer you seek JoeT, if you're reading this--- find a way to put vertical lines where the CB edges would be for your Magic Eye product. That way, at a normal bridge length, you see a vertical line on each edge of the CB and one up the center. That will help this pivot players "SEE" what Stan's DVD is going to cover. I think that will correct perception issues overnight--- jmho.

Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

(I'm not railing against differing opinions, it's what makes the world go around. When done respectfully, debates and discussions are beneficial to everyone. The belittling, arguing, and arrogant and/or condescending attitudes are what is making this forum less enjoyable. And probably puts off many more, like Jim, never to return.)

And what is respectful about what Joey has recently written?

Is it just because he's "riled" that he gets a free pass on the "belittling, arguing, and arrogant and/or condescending attitude" part? Joey is a former Marine and I doubt he could get so "riled" as to lose control over something so trivial. Maybe it's just because he's every bit as disrespectful and argumentative and arrogant and condescending as those he's pointing his finger at.

Don't turn a blind eye to what he and several others are posting and how they are posting it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Jim,
I know it is not easy to post what you did about Lou Figueroa. He utilizes his skills with the word to incite people. He is skilled at this and knows it is easy to incite people with just the right amount of sick "humor".

GMT has a proven track record of this behavior as well. I haven't said a word about gmt and he comes on in this thread to

Patrick Johnson regularly uses mean-spirited comments to make forum members feel sleighted.

If Dr. Dave chooses to, he will ridicule a respected member and any idea that is not of his chosen preference.

These are the primary people who are constantly needling other posters. When they get a rise out of fellow posters, they want to play the martyr or look down their nose whichever one suits their fancy for the day.

It gets old after a while and posters like yourself who have NEVER caused discord and only want the best for the forum and the forum members, simply get tired of being abused and drop off of the forum.

Enough people haven't spoken out and the same few continue to drive people away from the forum.

Jim, we need good and decent people like yourself here and I hope you won't let Lou or anyone else drive you away.

Best Regards,
JoeyA

lol. I have writing skills and can be funny and because I disagree with you I shouldn't use those skills or humor. Instead I should just write poorly and be as unfunny as you?

Lou Figueroa

 

[dr_dave]

If Dr. Dave chooses to, he will ridicule a respected member and any idea that is not of his chosen preference.

Joey,

I hope that, after you cool down, you will realize that this is a gross over-generalization and is an unfair characterization of the contributions I have made to this forum over many years.

Like many people (e.g., you) I am opinionated at times, and I am sometimes relentless in justifying, supporting, and defending my claims, arguments, and conclusions. Also, I and others (e.g., you) can sometimes be quite passionate and emotional during the resulting "interactions." That's human nature.

At times, I do "ridicule" outrageous claims, downright bad information, promulgated myths, and inappropriate behavior. CTE threads seem to bring out the worst in me and many others (including you) at times. BTW, I'm not saying Pro-One fits into any of the categories in the 1st sentence of this paragraph (although, some outrageous claims made about CTE in the past do fit one or more of the categories). On the contrary, I do appreciate the benefits align-and-pivot aiming systems like Pro-One (if that's what it is) can provide to some people.

Other things you or others might perceive I have ridiculed at times in the past are the many myths surrounding squirt and throw (and spin transfer), the practice of twisting and swooping the cue during a stroke, and claims made about grip tightening and extended follow-through for certain types of shots. Some people don't like it when I disagree with their positions on some of these topics, and I do challenge some of the claims some people make, and these "challenges" can seem "ridiculing" at times, but I think I have offered a lot of insight (and helped shatter some myths) concerning some of these (and other) topics. I try to be polite and respectful most of the time, but sometimes I do offend people, especially when I use humor or mock some the more-ridiculous claims. However, most of the contributions I make to this forum, and to the pool world through my website and instructional products, are purely informational, backed up by solid video evidence, logical reasoning, demonstrated examples, sound physics, and experimental proof. I'm sorry if you don't like my "style." That is your right. I don't always like your "style" either (although, I do most of the time).

I haven't seen Stan's DVD yet, so I don't know whether or not any of the important issues illustrated and described on my CTE resource page apply to Pro-One or not. Based on everything I have seen and heard so far, it seems like Pro-One is similar to other versions of CTE in many ways, but I won't know for sure until I see Stan's DVD. At this time, I still don't really know what Pro-One is, and until we have a concrete and informative explanation for what Pro-One is, detailing how it works, no debate or mockery concerning Pro-One is really meaningful or helpful, IMO.

Regards,
Dave

 

[lfigueroa]

This happened many years ago on the newsgroup rec.sport.billiard...
[/B]lol

LOL!

This is patently untrue and you know it. AND you flung the insults as much as any other poster on RSB when the discussions got into that mode. In time you came to adopt this School Marm pose, all the while digging in the knife and crying out in "distress" at all the mayhem around you.

Lou Figueroa
who said
Joey couldn't be
funny

 

[lfigueroa]

This student CANNOT see the center of the cue ball. It blew me away when I finally realized that. Apparently, he is simply unable to see the true center of the cue ball and he has been compensating his entire lifetime for that visual distortion. He says that now that he knows how much he is off from the center, he will attempt to compensate for that.

JoeyA

This is an extraordinarily common problem

That AND that the aspiring player does not realize that "center of the CB" means "center of the CB" and not "close to the center of the CB."

Lou Figueroa

 

[JoeyA]

At this time, I still don't really know what Pro-One is, and until we have a concrete and informative explanation for what Pro-One is, detailing how it works, no debate or mockery concerning Pro-One is really meaningful or helpful, IMO.

Regards,
Dave

So after all this time, you FINALLY ADMIT that you don't have any knowledge of what Stan Shuffett teaches.
It's ABOUT TIME!

You can order his upcoming video by going to www.justcueit.com.

Maybe now you and the other NAYSAYERS will stop ridiculing posters who use CTE/Pro One and stop knocking somthing that you now admit to not having learned in the first place.

 

[JoeyA]

lol. I have writing skills and can be funny and because I disagree with you I shouldn't use those skills or humor. Instead I should just write poorly and be as unfunny as you?

Lou Figueroa

Your humor is perverted. You enjoy needling other people. That's sick, imo.

 

[dr_dave]

If some of you have had SUCCESS in CORRECTING a person visual perspective as far as the center of the cue ball is concerned, please offer your suggestions. This person is 6'3" for what it is worth and a few years older than myself. He's hustled pool and plays at a high C level. His game has always been inconsistent but we will try to help and if you have known of successful methods of correcting the visual perspective, I would love to hear about it.

I have had good luck (with me and others) with the following from my "vision center" resource page:

... set up a long straight-in shot into a corner pocket, marking the CB and OB positions with self-adhesive hole reinforcements (AKA, a "little white donuts"). Then hit stop shots. If the CB has no sidespin after hitting the OB, and if the OB goes into the center of the pocket consistently, then you have your vision center properly aligned (and you have a good stroke). If not, then shifting your head will probably help. If the CB consistently goes to the right of target, causing the OB to go left of the pocket, your left eye is probably dominating the perception of the line of the cue. This causes you to position the cue a little to the left of center and to pivot the cue a little to the right of the desired line of aim. With your eye alignment to the left of center, you perceive the shifted and pivoted cue position as centered and straight, but it is not. If this is the case, try shifting your head to the right a little, and then try another set of stop shots. If you are consistently missing the CB target to the left instead, with the OB missing the pocket to the right, try shifting your head to the left. After you find the head alignment that results in the best accuracy (i.e., no CB spin, and OB in the center of the pocket), you will have found your vision center. When you are done, try to remember how the stance feels and/or where your nose or chin is relative to the cue. It might also help to do this in front of a mirror or video camera, for future reference.​

Also, more drills and related information on this topic can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html​

especially under: finding the center of the cue ball, sighting, and vision center.

I hope you find some of this useful,
Dave

 

[JoeyA]

LOL!

This is patently untrue and you know it. AND you flung the insults as much as any other poster on RSB when the discussions got into that mode. In time you came to adopt this School Marm pose, all the while digging in the knife and crying out in "distress" at all the mayhem around you.

Lou Figueroa
who said
Joey couldn't be
funny

I'm not beyond responding IN KIND, so while you want to paint this School Marm picture of me, I am far from it but anyone who wishes to see the truth can simply look at your posts and my posts and see that I simply respond to your needling and the needling of others.

In the past I have been reluctant to speak out against people who occasionally make valuable contributions to the forum, simply because I didn't want to add additional strife to the forum.

Those days are over. If you needle me, you're going to get it back and then some. Same goes for every person that ridicules or attempts to besmirch respected posters good name.

I will get tired of responding to your digs and may let some slip because you are quite adept at SPINNING a tale and while I don't find have the time to respond to every one of your needles, I will do my best when I respond.

 

[JoeyA]

I have had good luck (with me and others) with the following from my "vision center" resource page:

... set up a long straight-in shot into a corner pocket, marking the CB and OB positions with self-adhesive hole reinforcements (AKA, a "little white donuts"). Then hit stop shots. If the CB has no sidespin after hitting the OB, and if the OB goes into the center of the pocket consistently, then you have your vision center properly aligned (and you have a good stroke). If not, then shifting your head will probably help. If the CB consistently goes to the right of target, causing the OB to go left of the pocket, your left eye is probably dominating the perception of the line of the cue. This causes you to position the cue a little to the left of center and to pivot the cue a little to the right of the desired line of aim. With your eye alignment to the left of center, you perceive the shifted and pivoted cue position as centered and straight, but it is not. If this is the case, try shifting your head to the right a little, and then try another set of stop shots. If you are consistently missing the CB target to the left instead, with the OB missing the pocket to the right, try shifting your head to the left. After you find the head alignment that results in the best accuracy (i.e., no CB spin, and OB in the center of the pocket), you will have found your vision center. When you are done, try to remember how the stance feels and/or where your nose or chin is relative to the cue. It might also help to do this in front of a mirror or video camera, for future reference.​

Also, more drills and related information on this topic can be found here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/eyes.html​

especially under: finding the center of the cue ball, sighting, and vision center.

I hope you find some of this useful,
Dave

Thanks Dave. I will send my student friend there.

 

[BRKNRUN]

This is an extraordinarily common problem

That AND that the aspiring player does not realize that "center of the CB" means "center of the CB" and not "close to the center of the CB."

Lou Figueroa

If he has problems ligning up center CB...I would imagine that he would very likely also have a "crooked" cue as well.....(meaning not stright along the shot line through the CB)...If he does not have both of these "fundamentals" in the first place...how could any alignment method work on a consistent basis?

From reading about all this CTE and "benefits of" I am starting to realize something.

I have seen comments like....(no I am not going to go "dig" them up..you will just have to trust me that I have seen them)

CTE makes shooters more aware (and the importance) of center CB

CTE forces/allows shooters to have a consistent view/alignment method

There are others...but these are two prime examples...They are not bad benefits of the method....However....these are examples of very important fundamentals that obviously have been previously ignored or overlooked by the shooter making grand claims how CTE improved thier shotmaking.

One of the very first and most important fundamentals a player I thought was supposed to learn is center CB...aka the stop shot....shotmaking and "cueball control" is based from a foundation of center CB and the "stop shot".

Consistency....aka...Pre shot routine was another....kind of like consistency leads to consitency.

Neither one of these "fundamentals" require that you learn/use CTE....If you learn/practice them as a "stand alone fundamental" your shotmakeing and CB control will improve by leaps and bounds....no matter what alignment method you use.

With all these alignment threads....I have been trying many different methods of late for aim....What hapened is I was so distracted by the methods that I forgot those basic fundamentals and my shotmaking suffered.......I have since ditched all the other methods and circled back to my own super duper mongo alignment method focused more again on proper fundamentals and wouldn't you know...my shotmakeing is improving again.

 

[JoeyA]

And what is respectful about what Joey has recently written?

Is it just because he's "riled" that he gets a free pass on the "belittling, arguing, and arrogant and/or condescending attitude" part? Joey is a former Marine and I doubt he could get so "riled" as to lose control over something so trivial. Maybe it's just because he's every bit as disrespectful and argumentative and arrogant and condescending as those he's pointing his finger at.

Don't turn a blind eye to what he and several others are posting and how they are posting it.

Lou Figueroa

It's not working any more, Lou.

You have been outed and that's the way it is.

Change your behavior for the better and you will be given the respect that you so desperately seek.

 

[JoeyA]

With all these alignment threads....I have been trying many different methods of late for aim....What hapened is I was so distracted by the methods that I forgot those basic fundamentals....I have since ditched all the other methods and circled back to my own super duper mongo alignment method focused more again on proper fundamentals and wouldn't you know...my shotmakeing is improving again.

Kenm, if that is working for you, I am thrilled. (Sincerely)

Why wouldn't you be thrilled for someone else who is having success with CTE/Pro One?

BTW, I agree that finding the center of the cue ball is a key part of playing well.

 

[dr_dave]

I haven't seen Stan's DVD yet, so I don't know whether or not any of the important issues illustrated and described on my CTE resource page apply to Pro-One or not. Based on everything I have seen and heard so far, it seems like Pro-One is similar to other versions of CTE in many ways, but I won't know for sure until I see Stan's DVD. At this time, I still don't really know what Pro-One is, and until we have a concrete and informative explanation for what Pro-One is, detailing how it works, no debate or mockery concerning Pro-One is really meaningful or helpful, IMO.

So after all this time, you FINALLY ADMIT that you don't have any knowledge of what Stan Shuffett teaches.
It's ABOUT TIME!

Joey,

I have never claimed to know what Pro-One is; although, I do know a fair amount about several common versions of CTE.

I have read everything posted about Pro-One, and I have gotten some info from Stan and Spidey over the phone and via e-mail, but I still don't have a clue about the missing details of Pro-One that allow it to be used consistently and effectively for a wide range of shots. I honestly hope Stan's DVD will change that. I am certainly looking forward to viewing it, and I honestly hope its adds a lot of new insight and information to the CTE landscape, which has been a quite barren to date (in terms of meaningful information and details).

I hope you or others don't perceive this as disrespectful or mocking. That certainly is not my intent.

Regards,
Dave

 

[GetMeThere]

And what is respectful about what Joey has recently written?

Is it just because he's "riled" that he gets a free pass on the "belittling, arguing, and arrogant and/or condescending attitude" part? Joey is a former Marine and I doubt he could get so "riled" as to lose control over something so trivial. Maybe it's just because he's every bit as disrespectful and argumentative and arrogant and condescending as those he's pointing his finger at.

Don't turn a blind eye to what he and several others are posting and how they are posting it.

Lou Figueroa

It's not working any more, Lou.

You have been outed and that's the way it is.

Change your behavior for the better and you will be given the respect that you so desperately seek.

The truth ALWAYS "works," Joey. And the truth is that you have posted FAR nastier stuff than those you charge with bad behavior--and apparently all because they "disagree with you" about the value of an aiming system.

I looked at all the posts here, and I don't see any nastiness coming from Lou, and a LOT coming from you. Just the facts.

From my understanding of the rules, disagreements are allowed on threads. (and, by my reading of them, the sorts of personal attacks and obscenities you have handed out are NOT allowed).

If you want to relate your experiences with CTE in a venue that prohibits "thread-type" responses and disagreements, then why not do blog posts on your experiences with CTE instead of forum posts?

Just an idea that might make the experience less upsetting for you...