Aiming Voodoo Video

[JB Cases]

For the purpose of the discussion we should probably have some definitions.

I propose the following.

Sighting: The line by which the shooter initially aligns themselves to the postion of the balls.

Alignment: The position of the body in relation to the cueball.

Center (Sighting): The physical center of the cueball or object ball as seen from the top of the ball or the bottom where it sits on the table.

Center (Pivoting): The center of the cue ball as seen when addressing the cueball.

Aiming Line: the actual line which the cue ball will travel on when struck at center ball.

Pivoting: The act of turning the cue into the aiming line as opposed to laying the cue down on the aiming line. ex: when lining up a straight in shot the shooter can lay the cue straight down on the aiming line which extends through both centers and the bridge. When using a pivot system the shooter would pivot the cue to center ball and put the bridge hand down along the aiming line produced by the system.

Pivot Point: The point around which the cue rotates while the shooter is pivoting it into position.

Edge: The visible outermost point of the ball. Note - the visible edge changes with body and head position.

Center to Edge Line (CTEL): The line produced by sighting the Center of the cueball to the Edge of the object ball.

_________________________________________________________

Feel free to add to this glossary of terms.

 

[jsp]

As to OB is positioned down table, it should appear to be a smaller diameter. At a focal plane at the CB where one is setting up the aim, the OB will be a smaller and smaller diameter as the OB is farther and farther away from the the larger appearing CB.

One can use the proportions of the smaller diameter OB to adjust the aim line i.e. the distance from the OB edge to it's center is also smaller and smaller as the OB is farther away from the CB.

By using the smaller proportional distances, one can decrease the included angle from the CTE to the aim line to the GB. This will prevent the CB missing the GB to the outside.

This speaks to the prepivot shift changing/decreasing (decreasing attendant included angle as well) as the OB is farther away from the CB.

Next?:thumbup:

You're right. But unless the system itself systematically describes how to do the above without violating the laws of geometry, then the system will remain an inexact system.

 

[jsp]

I do not know exactly how I pivot differently for each ball. For me it "feels" as if the pivot is the same or so close as to not be noticeably different.

If you "do not know" how you pivot differently for each shot, then you're doing it subconsciously...by definition.

I do not think it is possible to create a diagram where more than one set of balls has the same CTE line.

Then you have to brush up on your elementary geometry. A unique line can be determined by only two points, but the line itself is made up of an infinite number of points. All you have to do is determine one CTE line from only one OB, and then place the edges of the remaining 14 OB (or more) on this line. Voila, you have 15 balls with the same CTE line.

No, it was 2am and I was getting very tired and losing my train of thought.

I don't have a lot of time to devote to this but obviously it's interesting to me. I also don't have a physics or math background. So it's very easy for me to get out of my depth when trying to describe the actual steps in detail.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound combative in my last post. I just honestly thought it was funny that you quit mid-thought and mid-sentence right when you were getting into the good stuff.

All I can say is that it works and that there are others who have studied how it works in greater detail. They can obviously explain it to the point where they can teach it.

I don't question at all that these systems can help people improve their pool game. Again, the issue I (and many posters here) have problems with is the claim that you said yourself in post 139...

However the one that is in fact a claim that Pat and others have a huge problem with is the one that claims that these systems are "exact" and are center pocket systems and that they don't rely on feel.

If you want to continue on with this claim, then I will continue to demonstrate this claim as false. If you want to take back this claim, then then I have no more beef and the discussion is over.

 

[Neil]

JSP- I'm not going to go getting into a long debate on here. But, you seem to be missing a few points in trying to figure this out. Maybe this will help, maybe it won't.... When you pivot, you seem to be too worried about where to pivot FROM. Don't worry so much about FROM, but put your attention on to WHERE. You pivot back to center of the cb, so, in that sense, it IS exact. Second, when you line up CTE and then put a number of other balls along that edge, the line is touching each ball in a different place. You aren't taking that into consideration.

 

[jsp]

JSP- I'm not going to go getting into a long debate on here. But, you seem to be missing a few points in trying to figure this out. Maybe this will help, maybe it won't.... When you pivot, you seem to be too worried about where to pivot FROM. Don't worry so much about FROM, but put your attention on to WHERE. You pivot back to center of the cb, so, in that sense, it IS exact.

But what is "center"?

What you're looking for is the aim line that goes through the center of the CB. Again, a line is determined by two points. One point is the center of the CB. What is the other point? It's the pivot point on the cue (EDIT: the pivot point doesn't have to be on the cue). If you don't know the pivot point, then you don't have enough information to determine a unique aim line.

Second, when you line up CTE and then put a number of other balls along that edge, the line is touching each ball in a different place. You aren't taking that into consideration

It's still the same CTE line.

 

[cleary]

But what is "center"?

What you're looking for is the aim line that goes through the center of the CB. Again, a line is determined by two points. One point is the center of the CB. What is the other point? It's the pivot point on the cue. If you don't know the pivot point, then you don't have enough information to determine a unique aim line.

just please stop overthinking this... we arn't launching rockets into space.

 

[eezbank]

just please stop overthinking this... we arn't launching rockets into space.

LOL Right on Cleary!!.... PSJ gets banned and JSP is here picking up the argument right where he left off.

 

[jsp]

PSJ gets banned and JSP is here picking up the argument right where he left off.

:scratchhead: Hmmm...well, maybe I AM PSJ? :idea2:

It's funny, but when I first joined the forum and PJ wasn't around yet, the infamous drivermaker also thought I was PJ's alter ego.

 

[cookie man]

:scratchhead: Hmmm...well, maybe I AM PSJ? :idea2:

It's funny, but when I first joined the forum and PJ wasn't around yet, the infamous drivermaker also thought I was PJ's alter ego.

If it looks like a Duck,lol.

 

[peteypooldude]

LOL Right on Cleary!!.... PSJ gets banned and JSP is here picking up the argument right where he left off.

That is ironic :rotflmao1::killingme:

 

[mikepage]

If it looks like a Duck,lol.

Perhaps you're kidding. But in case you're not, I'll point out jsp has been around as a respected and respectful poster for a long time. He's not Patrick.

 

[JoeyA]

:scratchhead: Hmmm...well, maybe I AM PSJ? :idea2:

It's funny, but when I first joined the forum and PJ wasn't around yet, the infamous drivermaker also thought I was PJ's alter ego.

It's just because you and Patrick "squerve" alike. j/k have fun.

 

[cookie man]

Perhaps you're kidding. But in case you're not, I'll point out jsp has been around as a respected and respectful poster for a long time. He's not Patrick.

Mike, get a life. I put lol, that means of course I was kidding. jsp does not even have the same tone to his posts as PJ, thankful of that.
P.S. MERRY CHRISTMAS

 

[cookie man]

Perhaps you're kidding. But in case you're not, I'll point out jsp has been around as a respected and respectful poster for a long time. He's not Patrick.

Are you saying Patrick was not a respected and respectful poster? You really don't have to answer that.

 

[JB Cases]

If you "do not know" how you pivot differently for each shot, then you're doing it subconsciously...by definition.

Let me put it another way. The differences are so small as to not be noticeable.

Then you have to brush up on your elementary geometry. A unique line can be determined by only two points, but the line itself is made up of an infinite number of points. All you have to do is determine one CTE line from only one OB, and then place the edges of the remaining 14 OB (or more) on this line. Voila, you have 15 balls with the same CTE line.

Yes you are right. When all the balls are lined up as a half-ball hit then the CTE Line is the same when diagrammed. This is where spatial perception comes into it. The actual process is so similar from shot to shot as to feel exact and constant.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound combative in my last post. I just honestly thought it was funny that you quit mid-thought and mid-sentence right when you were getting into the good stuff.

Well, in my mind it was (and is) good stuff - but maybe I need to find some "good stuff" to continue that path.

I don't question at all that these systems can help people improve their pool game. Again, the issue I (and many posters here) have problems with is the claim that you said yourself in post 139...


If you want to continue on with this claim, then I will continue to demonstrate this claim as false. If you want to take back this claim, then then I have no more beef and the discussion is over.

I don't care if you have a problem with the way the system is described by those who teach it. They are lifelong students of the game as well as respected teachers.

I am just a user of the system and as such someone who can only report on my own experiences. For me the system is a set of repeatable steps that I use in such a way as to experience the exact same approach to every shot. Thus although a shot may be a straight in or a 88 degree cut I align myself the same way using the CTE line and the pivot and bridge hand placement is so close to the same that I have no problem saying it's exactly the same.

So bringing "feel" into it I have no problem saying with 100% certainty that the CTE system feels like it's an exact approach to lining up on the shot. Shot for shot the motions that I make to get down on the shot are so consistent that they feel exactly the same.

This is the nature of the "exact" comment made by some people when speaking of this system. For me I will just reiterate that it's close enough to exact that I don't need millimeter instructions.

If a person is truly interested in learning the system then they should simply start trying it and get some instruction. Then they will probably learn what those of us who use it already know, which is that it's consistent and reliable and "exact".

 

[JB Cases]

Can we not beat up on Pat when he's not here? I know Pat had a grating tone. He is actually a nice person (in person) and he does know a lot about pool and can play at a decent level.

JSP is not Pat and lets focus on the content. As long as the discussion is respectful then simply address the points.

Feel and "adjustment" are present all the time in any physical activity. Can you torque a lug nut exactly the same every time? No. I was a high diver and every dive is different. But then every dive is the same because you go through the same motions and you choose the techniques which allow you the most consistentcy.

For me CTE does that to the point where feel and adjsutment are reduced dramatically. Even to the point where I say it's not there when of course it still is because I am the huge variable.

But it's reduced enough that I will confidently say it feels "exact". And to me that's what's great about it. Using it I an go for shots that I would butcher before because I absolutely could not find the right aiming line. Using CTE I can.

So let's just keep in mind what we already know and present that as postively as we can without beating up people who aren't here to defend themselves.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I like JSP's posts. I think he debates in a respectful manner and doesn't have a condescending tone. Even if we're not on the same page with a few topics, I enjoy his posts.

 

[JB Cases]

JSP's test.

Here you go JSP. I modified your diagram a little to give each ball the same CTE line so I could do the test using CTE since I don't know how to do 90/90 yet.

I moved the cue ball to the second diamond so you can see the bridge hand placement and the motion of the cue. My hand on the Bible I did practically the same thing for each shot as near humanly possible.

I did this in one take as soon as I got to work. I only shot this one time and the video has not been edited.

The only ball that I missed "badly" was the four ball. As you can see in the video I nudged the four from an earlier shot and did not replace it correctly. I think that maybe I was so focused on the chalk line that I neglected the actual ball during that shot.

The other two balls that were missed were the "hardest" of the group, the six and seven. Frankly the six rattled and I will take that any day on that shot as I feel it's probably 50% at worst for me. The seven is practically impossible from that position due to contact induced throw when using a centerball hit on the cueball so I consider it to be fairly remarkable that it came so close.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAOEywF8z3A

 

[champ2107]

focus on the adjustment jb, do u see it? i new that last one would not go, its all in the pivot with these systems.

 

[JB Cases]

focus on the adjustment jb, do u see it? i new that last one would not go, its all in the pivot with these systems.

I can see the difference in bridge placement but I don't know that this makes a difference on the 7 ball as far as whether it would go or not.

One thing I am NOT doing which I think I should be doing is sighting based on whether the cut is thick or thin. I sight the CTE Line exactly.

I am still studying this and I know that I should sight it a touch inside or outside the CTE line for certain shots.

I know it's all in the pivot. That's the big mysterious question mark isn't it?

The first step and the last step are pretty straightforward, for CTE sight to the edge of the object ball as the first step - cuetip at center ball for the last step before the shot. The middle step - how and where to "pivot" is the one mystery part that is very tough to convey through the written word and through diagrams. I think it COULD be conveyed through diagrams but those diagrams need to be larger to include the shooter's position in them.

This is why GB is so easy to show. You only need simple lines contained within the table top and the concept is super simple, the CB and GB are points on the aiming line, lay the cue on that line.

CTE is not easy to diagram because of the pivot. It's not even easy to show within the confines of the table top with overhead video. My camera is as high as my ceiling allows for. Later when I move I will have a higher ceiling and can get a better vantage point.