What is it?
On a different topic, conventional wisdom is to remove balls up table early. He waited until the end to get the ball on the head rail and drew two rails to get on it.
From Willie Joseph Mosconi himself:
- Thread starter JoeyA
- Start date
What is it?
On a different topic, conventional wisdom is to remove balls up table early. He waited until the end to get the ball on the head rail and drew two rails to get on it.
That's exactly what he is doing in the videos I provided. It IS a slip stroke. You are in denial. And yes you mentioned several times you saw him play in person. That doesn't mean that you can't be wrong.
As I have also pointed out many times, Willie was only a faint shadow
of what he had been in his prime. He was effectively just banging
balls around. More's the pity there is no film/video record of him in his
prime. Watching what is available, compared to his peak game is kinda
like watching you and I play one-on-one basketball compared to some
of the legendary Lakers vs Celtics NBA Finals
Dale
First, I should start with an apology to JoeyA for being a co-conspirator
in the hi-jacking of this thread about elbow drop into pointless
bickering over what does or does not constitute a slip stroke. Tho
a couple of people do finally "get it".
So, I solemly swear to speak no more about slippin and slidin strokin -
till the next thread slips and/or slides onto AZB.
Your invocation of the term denial poses an intriguing querry, since,
like the term slip stroke you can parrot the definition, yet can't recognize
the phenomenom in you own behavior.
I would appreciate some insight from anyone on just why so many people
have such a need to think Willie used a slip stroke.
Dale<over and out>
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I think it's because he was always using the same starting point on his grip and that when he needed to adjust it further back he let his hand smoothly slide back a bit. So to many that grip adjustment looked like a slip stroke. But wasn't.
Lou Figueroa
or sumthin'
like that
No apology needed Dale. At least the discussion about Mosconi's stroke didn't slip into mean-spirited condemnations.
I wonder is the daughters Candace or Gloria married and if their children (if they had any) ever took up pool like Willie.
Wondering if Gloria M Dickson in New Jersey is the daughter of Willie Joseph Mosconi?
That's true, it would be great to see a video of Mosconi in his prime. I suspect with the thousands of exhibitions he gave over the years there is an old 8mm video of him collecting dust on a shelf somewhere.
Speaking of basketball, that's one game I could have beat Mosconi at. I could dunk a ball when I was young.
PDcue, since you said you saw Willie play in person when he was younger, I am guessing you are an old timer. I have the utmost respect for people that are getting up there in age. All I am saying is that what Mosconi was doing in those videos fits the definition of a slip stroke. Lets just agree to disagree. Ok?
Joey, was thinking of you today at the used book store when I found a Willie Mosconi book that was first published in 1948 and then again in 1959 by Crown Publishers, on the front it says Little Sports Library. World Champion from 1941-1958. What I fond interesting about Willie is his shooting position with cue tip stopped at the cue ball, his back hand is approximately 6'' forward of his elbow in almost the finish position after the shot, very similar style to what I have always used (probably because I read this book as a kid) and very similar to Jack Hines, actually almost identical. I'm gonna read this book again, I'm sure there's some good/bad info within, but after my 50 yr stint with the game I'll be able to pick out the good information as well as the bad and know the difference. Growing up around Chicago and Brunswick pool rooms everywhere, this paperback book roughly 5 inches by 7'' did make the rounds when I first started learning, I remember the cover very well. If I find anything truly interesting I'll make another post.
Hey that would be great. I would like others to review his book and make comments about anything that they observed that might be interesting.
That's the book, exactly 5" x 8".
Look forward to your comments.
JoeyA
All right you troll, what was the score. :smile:
Well it was a pretty short read and some publishing/editing issues but ''one'' item jumped out where Willies talking about ''Stance at the Table'' on page
18. Here he's illustrating where the feet/head and alignment of body should be and next he says ''now bend forward at the hips, your weight is distributed evenly on both feet. In this position, your body can move slightly forward with the stroke. This forward movement will help you follow through on your stroke.''
This FORWARD MOVEMENT was again mentioned on page 21
Next:
(he's talking about stance again and the players body in relation to where the cue ball is at, meaning the shooter is either close to rail or out further into the play field and not in the most natural/comfortable shooting position)
Here's his statement;
''If for example, the cue ball is frozen to, or is close to the rail your position changes''
Willie is talking about the position of your body.
''In this case, you would be farther back from the table, but, again, your body
faces the shot, you are balanced to move forward with the stroke and your head is over the cue in the line of aim.''
I'm going to try this concept this week, tho being as tall at I am 6'6'', any movement is accentuated so I'm real reluctant to incorporate, I've never taught this concept.
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I've tried this too but with mixed success.
I think that any grip that allows you to hold the cue without adding additional pressure to the grip is a good grip.
WOW!
Except for the break, that is tantamount to heresy.
That's a great find. I'm sorry I missed it. Props to you Island Drive. Please let us know how this affects your shooting.
I have seen some good players of todays generation that have some forward movement, sideward movement and upward movement so who is to say what is right or wrong.
Here is the original design of the first book. This was published in both hardback and paperback. This particular copy is signed by Jimmy Caras.
Here is the modern reprint published by Three Rivers Press (part of Crown which is part of Doubleday). This is a slightly larger format than the original, and there was also an intermediate size printed in the 1970s by Crown. This book has had about 60 printings.
This is the original design of "Winning Pocket Billiards," which was first published in 1965 by Crown. There were at least 27 printings of this edition.
Here is the recent reprint by Three Rivers Press. This has had at least 7 printings.
Here is a version from Hong Kong. Maybe pirated, but certainly poor quality.
Here is the modern reprint published by Three Rivers Press (part of Crown which is part of Doubleday). This is a slightly larger format than the original, and there was also an intermediate size printed in the 1970s by Crown. This book has had about 60 printings.
This is the original design of "Winning Pocket Billiards," which was first published in 1965 by Crown. There were at least 27 printings of this edition.
Here is the recent reprint by Three Rivers Press. This has had at least 7 printings.
Here is a version from Hong Kong. Maybe pirated, but certainly poor quality.
It is not clear who wrote the two books above, or how much input Mosconi actually had. At one time I thought the author was Harry Grove, whose name you will see on the Foreword in "Winning Pocket Billiards" but I've been told that Harry probably did not write the text.
There are several obvious errors and quite a few serious omissions in the books. As instructional books, they have been passed many fold by more recent authors. It is unfortunate that Mosconi never collaborated on a book that looked deeper into the game, or for that matter, taught others personally. Maurice Daly comes to mind as an example of what Mosconi might have done.
There are several obvious errors and quite a few serious omissions in the books. As instructional books, they have been passed many fold by more recent authors. It is unfortunate that Mosconi never collaborated on a book that looked deeper into the game, or for that matter, taught others personally. Maurice Daly comes to mind as an example of what Mosconi might have done.
What I found most interesting in the book, was on page 12 & 13 where it states pool always being a top ranked sport in church recreation rooms, YMCA programs, boy's clubs and various adult clubs. Collegiate championships before WWII then after that restarting play in spring of 1947. Also, during the war boys club of America accepted pocket billiards as a fine competitive sport for the youngsters under their supervision and conducted national tournaments, then held a national championship playoff in the spring of 1946 and in each of the following years through 1958.
The Billiard Congress of America sent player stars like, Peterson, Hoppe, Erwiin Rudolph and Andrew Ponzi into military training camps to teach and demonstrate their cue magic. Also, Willie Mosconi, a GI during WWII, gave exhibitions at posts where he was stationed.
After this the BCA inaugurated a program of sectional collegiate tournaments to qualify players for national play. Also during this time Brunswick started combining Bowling and pool centers and billiard centers in the large colleges.
Its sad reading this and realizing how removed IN TODAYS WORLD, the BCA has become and distanced itself from the player programs, the chum that actually feeds the fire for selling more product for the mfg.
It was said also on page 13 that the sectional tournaments are bound to feed the fire of billiard competition throughout the country and bring forth new players of great skill.
Pool also at one time was only rivaled by one other sport,basketball, otherwise its participation exceeded ALL other sports.
The Billiard Congress of America sent player stars like, Peterson, Hoppe, Erwiin Rudolph and Andrew Ponzi into military training camps to teach and demonstrate their cue magic. Also, Willie Mosconi, a GI during WWII, gave exhibitions at posts where he was stationed.
After this the BCA inaugurated a program of sectional collegiate tournaments to qualify players for national play. Also during this time Brunswick started combining Bowling and pool centers and billiard centers in the large colleges.
Its sad reading this and realizing how removed IN TODAYS WORLD, the BCA has become and distanced itself from the player programs, the chum that actually feeds the fire for selling more product for the mfg.
It was said also on page 13 that the sectional tournaments are bound to feed the fire of billiard competition throughout the country and bring forth new players of great skill.
Pool also at one time was only rivaled by one other sport,basketball, otherwise its participation exceeded ALL other sports.
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