What happened in Louisville??

caromcorner

Carom Addict
Silver Member
Can somebody please explain to me why the two undefeated players from the semi-final round at the Pendennis club didn't play each other for 1st and 2nd???? Paul Frankel and Mazin Shooni were 5-0 in their perspective flights and didn't battle for 1/2????
 
Dru,

It depends who you ask. I'm not going to take sides on this one.

But taking this tournament out of the picture and just making a general statement regarding the records w/l finals...something does not look kosher.

Pun intended
 
Dru,

It depends who you ask. I'm not going to take sides on this one.

But taking this tournament out of the picture and just making a general statement regarding the records w/l finals...something does not look kosher.

Pun intended

KOSHER, The bald headed Jewish guy got Knished in the Bagel hole! :grin: (I'ts a joke guy's)! But TRUE!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
Dru,

The only person should explain it ,is the tournament director!
I am sure they had a reason to come up with a new format !
 
No matter which way this discussion go. Paul is too Respectful of a player and a promoter.

No matter what! Paul Frankel have my support above anyone elses, That include Deek-a-MoM.
 
Dru,

Can you explain to me (people who didn't watch the finals)
what happen, who was the loosers ( that suppose to play for 3rd and 4th)?
 
Dru,

Can you explain to me (people who didn't watch the finals)
what happen, who was the loosers ( that suppose to play for 3rd and 4th)?

Gilbert; I didn't know you had such a DRY sense of humor!;)

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"
 
From ProfessorQBall Website:


ARTICLE WILL BE POSTED SOON

Modified Single Elimination Semi-Finals:



Pts

Mazin Shooni 25

Jim Bishop 14



Pts

Jim Shovak 25

Paul Frankel 13





Modified Single Elimination Finals:




1st & 2nd Place: Pts

Mazin Shooni 25

Jim Shovak 13

3rd & 4th Place: Pts

Jim Bishop 25

Paul Frankel 18


5th & 6th Place: Pts

Dan Kolacz 25

Johnathan Anderson 17


7th & 8th Place: Pts

Rick Kirk 25

Ellis Lawrence 14


9th & 10th Place: Pts

Max Fisher 25

Dennis Douberteen 23


FINALS-charts-finals-E-1024x473.jpg

FINALS-chartsF-1024x473.jpg


I still believe - neither Jim Shovak, nor Paul Frankel will answer this question.

What does Modified Single Elimination Semi-Finals: Mean? When it come to USBA Tournament?
 
This is not a new format. I believe it was used in the 1986 World Championship -- the one won by Avelino Rico.

After the two 5-man semis are done, it allows for any of the top two finishers from each flight to have a chance to win it all. The winner of flight 1 plays the runner-up from flight 2, and the winner of flight 2 plays the runner-up from flight 1. The winners of those two matches play for first and second, and the losers of those matches play for third and fourth.

Paul did not get screwed, he simply lost to Shovak, and went to the 3rd/4th match and lost there, too.

Mark
 
This is not a new format. I believe it was used in the 1986 World Championship -- the one won by Avelino Rico.

After the two 5-man semis are done, it allows for any of the top two finishers from each flight to have a chance to win it all. The winner of flight 1 plays the runner-up from flight 2, and the winner of flight 2 plays the runner-up from flight 1. The winners of those two matches play for first and second, and the losers of those matches play for third and fourth.

Paul did not get screwed, he simply lost to Shovak, and went to the 3rd/4th match and lost there, too.

Mark

It's not whether the format was used before or not, I wasn' the format advertised!

The USBA Regional Qualifier will be a 3-day event starting with the player's meeting on Friday January 14th. First rounds will start right after player's meeting 9:00am.

Format: Entry fee is $165, Dress code: collar shirt, shoes and slacks, round robin format, race to 20 points in the prelims and 25 points in the finals. There will be 4 flights of 6. Two from each flight plus the top two 3rd place finishers will advance to the 10 person finals on Sunday. Top 4 winners of the finals each receive free entry into 2011 USBA National Championship.


Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

P.S. By NO means was this Paul Frankel's fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Last edited:
1986-87-88-89-90-91-92-93-94-95-96-97-98-99-100-2001-2002-2003-+-2004-2005-2006-2008-2009-2010-2011
Average united states 600-850(24 years ago)-.........(now) it's 0.18.....800

Amazing after all this years , that we have maybe 10 players average 1!
We should be proud!

Mark, I am sure you are knowledgeable person, and you love the game , i respect you as a person,
But why USBA goes 24 -25 years ago to use this format?
is this helping the game?
is this enjoyable for public to watch live streaming (0.18 average)
is this great for carom in US?
WHY? and this is not a joke ! , but CAROM IS IN Danger and somebody have to take action NOW..
And again this not only my opinion , but many european believe the same and nobody cares about the game in the us(unfortunately)

A very good exemple ,we have to start teaching and allowing Budget for NEW BLOOD STUDENT (not a budget for live streaming! 116 viewers)

In france , A junior (adrian tachoir) 15 years old , average 900!!!!
amazing ! isn't it ...

again this message is against nobody , it's not about Paul Frankel or Jim shovakor Mazin Shooni or Wining or Loosing, It's about learning from the others,!

So please , we all love this game, respect it and enjoy it!
 
1986-87-88-89-90-91-92-93-94-95-96-97-98-99-100-2001-2002-2003-+-2004-2005-2006-2008-2009-2010-2011
Average united states 600-850(24 years ago)-.........(now) it's 0.18.....800

Amazing after all this years , that we have maybe 10 players average 1!
We should be proud!

Mark, I am sure you are knowledgeable person, and you love the game , i respect you as a person,
But why USBA goes 24 -25 years ago to use this format?
is this helping the game?
is this enjoyable for public to watch live streaming (0.18 average)
is this great for carom in US?
WHY? and this is not a joke ! , but CAROM IS IN Danger and somebody have to take action NOW..
And again this not only my opinion , but many european believe the same and nobody cares about the game in the us(unfortunately)

A very good exemple ,we have to start teaching and allowing Budget for NEW BLOOD STUDENT (not a budget for live streaming! 116 viewers)

In france , A junior (adrian tachoir) 15 years old , average 900!!!!
amazing ! isn't it ...

again this message is against nobody , it's not about Paul Frankel or Jim shovakor Mazin Shooni or Wining or Loosing, It's about learning from the others,!

So please , we all love this game, respect it and enjoy it!


A very good example ,we have to start teaching and allowing Budget for NEW BLOOD STUDENT (not a budget for live streaming! 116 viewers)


Fox! I believe a Budget for both could be done

When Live steaming of 3C begun. We were lucky to have 13 viewers. WE how have 116 avg. More Live Stream for awareness!!!!

I'm still waiting on a respond as to What Bruce Warner found out and what study material Spain Youth use for 3C training, and How USBA planning on using this Knowledge??

Fox! Are you setting up a youth/3C student instruction Facility? Or is it too early for that discussion?? And are you training any NEW BLOOD STUDENT??
 
So does this mean that all formats are in question till the day the tournament starts ? I like surprises , but this is not the best way to handle a tournament ? I wouldn't be too pleased to have the format changed the day of my arrival .... I understand there can be acceptations to all types of situations .... So what is the reason and who do you get to answer this question ? Also what can be done to let anyone know up front of a change in format ? Am I short sighted or does there need to be a standard to go by with only the point totals changing ? Gilbert you seem to have a lot of knowledge about this game and how it can be promoted etc...
Any chance of getting you back onto the BOARD of Directors ?


On a side note . As a pool player who has come to 3 C just in the last few yrs. I have enjoyed the competition and camaraderie . Some the best players have been very open to helping me,Mazin,Micheal Kang,Pedro,Sonny,Miguel ,Gilbert,DRU :)
Thank you !
Tim
 
So does this mean that all formats are in question till the day the tournament starts ? I like surprises , but this is not the best way to handle a tournament ? I wouldn't be too pleased to have the format changed the day of my arrival .... I understand there can be acceptations to all types of situations .... So what is the reason and who do you get to answer this question ? Also what can be done to let anyone know up front of a change in format ? Am I short sighted or does there need to be a standard to go by with only the point totals changing ? Gilbert you seem to have a lot of knowledge about this game and how it can be promoted etc...
Any chance of getting you back onto the BOARD of Directors ?


On a side note . As a pool player who has come to 3 C just in the last few yrs. I have enjoyed the competition and camaraderie . Some the best players have been very open to helping me,Mazin,Micheal Kang,Pedro,Sonny,Miguel ,Gilbert,DRU :)
Thank you !
Tim

Tim, Although I truly appreciate being included in such a list - it's quite a bit premature!

I will have to agree with Bill that the live streaming is important still. A Cue School of sorts is also extremely important! I think maybe we should talk with various room owners around the country to start something. Maybe at Carom Cafe in NY and College Billiards in CA they can start a week long billiards training package that includes table time, lessons and food. I would think, with something like this in place, a local hotel could be talked to in working out a deal for the travelers. I suggested these two rooms because I feel their perspective owners are two of the most talented instructors in our country! Also, maybe Mazin in NH, Bill down in FL and Gilbert up in LA area could think about following suite. This way people could just come and play billiards without anything else to worry about.

As far as the tournament went... I am not opposed to the format that was ultimately used. My problem is that it WAS CHANGED MID TOURNAMENT! I don't mind if on tournament day they need to adjust the points or initial brackets to accommodate more players wanting to play but to change the core format is not acceptable! Players travel from all over to come participate in these events and do whatever preparation is necessary ahead of time (both mentally and physically).

okay too much writing gets BORING so maybe some more later!
 
Sometimes the format is changed slightly at the start of the tournament, if all the players agree.
 
I spoke with Paul Frankel on the phone and we agreed that a response was necessary.
The format that was used and advertised was the same format that was used in recent USBA Tour Events. For example, at Chris’s Billiards in Chicago, we advertised the format as follows:

“Final Matches: (35 points)
Top 2 finishers of each semi-final group play single-elimination for 1st through 4th place
3rd place finishers of each semi-final group play for 5th and 6th place
4th place finishers of each semi-final group play for 7th and 8th place, etc.”

Notice that we didn’t advertise “Top finisher of each semi-final group”, but “Top 2 finishers of each group”. We also specified that they play for the top 4 positions and NOT for 1st and 2nd place. In retrospect, this could have been explained much better.

Chris’s Billiards: http://www.usba.net/2010Tour-ChrisBillrdsOpen-9-10.asp

You will notice that in the semi-finals, Pedro Piedrabuena finished 1st in his semi-final group. But instead of playing the 1st place finisher of the other semi-final group, he played the 2nd place finisher of the other semi-final group, Luis Aveiga, and lost. Aveiga went on to win the tournament.

The same thing happened at Doral Billiards:

http://www.usba.net/2010Tour-DoralOpen-11-12.asp

Pedro Piedrabuena finished 1st in his semi-final group, but played Hugo Patino, who finished 2nd in his group. Patino won. You could argue that Pedro got screwed again. However, it could just as easily work to his benefit if he had finished his group in 2nd place.

We advertised the event as follows:

“Finals Format:
The Top 2 Finishers of each semi-finals flight will play Single-Elimination
(For 1st thru 4th places)
The Two 3rd Place Finishers will have one Play-Off Match
(For 5th and 6th place)
And so on and so on.”

Again, we used the same format in California at Edgie’s:

http://www.usba.net/2010Tour-EdgiesOpen-12-17.asp

We advertised as follows:
“Final Matches: (35 points)
Top 2 finishers finishers of each semi-final group play single-elimination for 1st through 4th place
3rd place finishers of each semi-final group play for 5th and 6th place
4th place finishers of each semi-final group play for 7th and 8th place, etc.”

Jae Hyung Cho finished 1st in his semi-final group and then played Vicky Pineda, who finished 2nd in his group. However, Jae Hyung Cho defeated Pineda and went on to win the tournament.

We advertised the Pendennis Club format in the same way:

“Top 2 finishers of each Semi Final flight will play single elimination for 1st through 4th place overall.
3rd place Finishers of each Semi Final flight play each other for 5th and 6th .
4th place Finishers of each Semi Final flight play each other for 7th and 8th.
5th place Finishers of each Semi Final flight play each other for 9th and 10th.”

So the format was NOT changed mid-stream. The problem was miscommunication. Also, many of the players at the event had not played under that format yet, so there was much confusion. But we DID intend to use that format from the beginning and I explained to everyone at the player’s meeting that if you finish in the top 4 after the semi-finals, that you would STILL have a chance to win the whole tournament. Most of the players DID remember that I said that, but I guess they didn’t understand fully.

The format, itself, can be criticized, of course. That’s fine. There is always going to be someone who doesn’t like a particular format. You can’t make everyone happy, that’s for sure. But Paul & I wanted to set the record straight. Neither one of us really cared about the overall outcome. Either way, the top 4 finishers were already qualified for the Nationals, so we were both already happy. Sure, it’s great to finish in 1st instead of 4th, but neither Paul nor I had any problems. We are the best of friends.
 
For such a small community... and with the sport in such critical need of a boost in popularity... there sure seems to be a lot of drama surrounding USBA events. Such distractions are detractions. Aside from learning to play... and supporting my local room... I am almost afraid to ask what else I can do to help 3C thrive...
 
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