Bending the Object Ball

Jal said:
A ball with a masse spin component will change direction by the same amount regardless of how slick or "grabby" the cloth. But a more grabby cloth will cause that change of direction to happen sooner, so the curve will be tighter. In your example, a slicker cloth might be of some help since you want the 1-ball to execute a more open curve in order to clear the 2-ball.

However, an OB will not curve to any significant extent without being struck by an airborn cueball. That is, in order to induce a masse spin component, the cueball has to contact it above the horizontal equator. As oddzilla mentioned, this will also cause it to jump. The combination of jump and subsequent curve might be enough to clear the 2-ball and then "straighten out" after landing/bouncing and head for the pocket.

In principle, you can get the OB to curve just be using draw or follow at any non-zero cut angle. But calculations indicate that, at most, the change in direction is miniscule (in fact, very hard to measure and probably overridden by random buffeting by the cloth's weave pattern).

Jim
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You're always a reservoir of good information.

Thanks,
JoeyA
 
No, and if someone says they can cut that one, and bend it, ... not throw it to the left as you cut the ball, ... bend it, first to the left and then back to the right, the way the balls sit, to make that shot, I'd say it's far more likely, while watching Efren, their bong might have obscured their view.
 
Jal said:
A ball with a masse spin component will change direction by the same amount regardless of how slick or "grabby" the cloth. But a more grabby cloth will cause that change of direction to happen sooner, so the curve will be tighter. In your example, a slicker cloth might be of some help since you want the 1-ball to execute a more open curve in order to clear the 2-ball.

However, an OB will not curve to any significant extent without being struck by an airborn cueball. That is, in order to induce a masse spin component, the cueball has to contact it above the horizontal equator. As oddzilla mentioned, this will also cause it to jump. The combination of jump and subsequent curve might be enough to clear the 2-ball and then "straighten out" after landing/bouncing and head for the pocket.

In principle, you can get the OB to curve just be using draw or follow at any non-zero cut angle. But calculations indicate that, at most, the change in direction is miniscule (in fact, very hard to measure and probably overridden by random buffeting by the cloth's weave pattern).
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Excellent post Jim. I agree 100%. OB swerve is not a significant-enough effect to be of any practical use. The effect is larger in clingy conditions, but still not significant enough to be useful or even noticeable, IMO. If people want more explanation and proof, see:

IMO, the best chance for making that shot is by jumping the CB into the OB, created OB hop over the CB, or by hoping there is table roll-off, a lopsided (non-round OB), or well-placed dirt or irregularities on the cloth. It can also be made using the magical cue twist and swoop technique. For a demonstration, see:

Good thread Joey!

Regards,
Dave
 
IIRC, Bob Jewett did a thing on bending the OB as well, and his conclusion was that the cueball would have to be in the air when it contacted the OB.

Would be interesting to know what game Efren was playing at the time. If he was playing a rotation game, I would find it hard to believe that he would attempt such a low percentage shot if he had any safety options at all. In a 1p game, however, I could easily see him just attempting to lag a seemingly un-pocketable ball down by his hole and, by virtue of table roll or just large pockets and perfect speed, having the ball drop.

Aaron
 
I will give a free case to the first person who can provide a video of the object ball curving AROUND another ball.

I don't believe it can be done EVEN with an airborn hit on the object ball. I think that whoever claims that they saw Efren do it is mistaken about what they saw. Effy comes with some awesome shots but making an object ball masse' is not one of them.

I will give TWO free cases if anyone posts a video of themselves making Joey's diagrammed shot WITHOUT making the object ball jump over the blocking ball.
 
JB Cases said:
I will give a free case to the first person who can provide a video of the object ball curving AROUND another ball.

I don't believe it can be done EVEN with an airborn hit on the object ball. I think that whoever claims that they saw Efren do it is mistaken about what they saw. Effy comes with some awesome shots but making an object ball masse' is not one of them.

I will give TWO free cases if anyone posts a video of themselves making Joey's diagrammed shot WITHOUT making the object ball jump over the blocking ball.
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Uh oh. I know of a couple of tables that roll just bad enough for this shot to go. :wink:
 
I don't get it.

If you hit a CB straight down the table with a PERFECTLY LEVEL cue, the CB will not curve.

When a CB contacts an OB, they are both perfectly level (assuming the CB is in contact with the cloth) So how can the OB curve if it is being struck perfectly level.

The only feasible method I see is to jump the CB and hit the OB on top, which would simulate the effect of elevating your cue to induce curve.

Otherwise I don't see it happening, but what do I know!!!!
 
jb cases said:
i will give a free case to the first person who can provide a video of the object ball curving around another ball.

I don't believe it can be done even with an airborn hit on the object ball. I think that whoever claims that they saw efren do it is mistaken about what they saw. Effy comes with some awesome shots but making an object ball masse' is not one of them.

I will give two free cases if anyone posts a video of themselves making joey's diagrammed shot without making the object ball jump over the blocking ball.
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carefull there john, make sure you state it correctly. Because i can unlevel my table and make a video of this tonight if you like. My point being is, make this happen with the correct conditions. Level table, clean balls, new(er) cloth etc.
 
I don't have a camcorder, but if you're anywhere near Richmond, VA I can show you a ball curving technique that I use in return for a case. Reference the thread about players not giving away their secrets for free. Hint: Buddy Hall told me NOT to stroke this way..... I really gotta find a camcorder. The first time I curved a ball was in a league, and people got up and inspected the table for a rolloff.....
 
what I think

I think Joey A is internalizing not being at DCC this year so he has too much time on his hands to come up with threads and shots like this .Actually I have seen that shot made or hung in the pocket a few times by Shawn Putnam playing one pocket.So I know it can be done.Good thread Joey , just messing with you , keep up the good work ,we need ya out here in the fields boss man .My call on this shot is that it has ALOT to do with pocket speed.
 
Neil said:
This thread does have my interest. I am inclined to believe that it can be done. At first, I was in the "no way" camp. However, I do recall a shot from several weeks ago that was very similar to the shot shown, but closer to the pocket. The ob would not go, everyone saw that it could not go, so I attempted a safe off it, got very safe, but the ob went in!

We all thought it was due to table roll, and that I got another usual bad roll. However, after the game, I could not get a ball to roll off like that. And, it sure didn't make a sharp turn like it would if it hit a piece of chalk or something. So........ maybe it does go???
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To the tables we go. Reports expected back no later than Saturday evening. :wink:
 
Well it's up to each person's honesty. I think it's clear that I meant to do by the player's skill and not because of some table flaw.

I have tried to "bend" balls for 20 years and I do not believe it's possible without something being wrong with the table.

So to make it more clear - I will pay off if someone can demonstrate bending the ball on BOTH sides of the table with the same shot. So if someone happens to have a table that rolls off the same way on both sides of the table or they wish to doctor their table to do it then go ahead.

Believe me I will ask Putnam and Schmidt when I am at Valley Forge to show me how they can make an object ball masse' AROUND an object ball.

To be clear this means that the object ball is going in one direction - say towards the rail and then it reverses direction and goes into the pocket and it is not due to table roll.

I mean WE ALL have seen tables that rolled off this way and some of us have played the table roll on purpose. And I can make the cue ball swerve with a level cue and the right speed. But I don't believe that it's possible to make the object ball take a curved path without some major other force.

Such as hitting it into a rail where it picks up spin - I can see that being a way make an object ball curve after the rail.

Anyway, I will pay off for video because I think it's worth it it the video is on the square.
 
I am not saying it can or can't be done...but here is some info.

This thread reminded me of something that Don Rose told me years ago when faced with the long down the rail shot....similar to the diagramed shot but usually with the OB close to the rail and the CB away from the rail.

He told me to use a touch of draw to get the OB to track truer toward the pocket.

I just set this shot up. I used a striped ball for induced spin reference....If you just shoot the CB into the OB to make it, the OB will pick up a twist....I was able (using striaght draw) to make the ball track true (no twist)

If I can affect the twist to remove it...I suppose that means it may be possible through some kind of english to "add" additional twist.

My guess is that IF the shot is possible...it would need to be done on brand spankin new cloth so that the OB slides before the twist has any effect on the path....On worn cloth the effect would happen to quickly for the ball to get around the diagramed shot......IMO

I would spend more time trying to make this shot...but I already paid for my case.....:wink:
 
It can be done.
when shooting on the right side of table you aim to miss the ball your going around slightly to the left and hit CB with extreme low left putting top right on the OB. It will work like a gear and move the OB slightly to the right moving down the table.
 
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