Ah yes, the exclusivity equation:
pool == 9-ball, 9-ball == pool
Henry Ford said it best: "you can have any game you want, as long as it's 9-ball." Er, perhaps he instead meant something along the lines of color, or something like that?
-Sean
Outside english or center ball?
- Thread starter ThePoliteSniper
- Start date
Ah yes, the exclusivity equation:
pool == 9-ball, 9-ball == pool
Henry Ford said it best: "you can have any game you want, as long as it's 9-ball." Er, perhaps he instead meant something along the lines of color, or something like that?
-Sean
Ah yes, the exclusivity equation:
pool == 9-ball, 9-ball == pool
Henry Ford said it best: "you can have any game you want, as long as it's 9-ball." Er, perhaps he instead meant something along the lines of color, or something like that?
-Sean
Ain't it the truth.... shame really, but it seems that is what the great game of pool has decayed to.
Another thread generically asks a question in a poll something like, would rather play a player two balls stronger or two balls weaker.
Gee, in a 150 point game of 14.1 that doesn't seem like much of a spot.
It never specifies " In a game of 9 ball would you like ....... " It simply assumes that's the only game there is.
It's like settling for a game of checkers on a beautiful chess board.
The posters who say "center ball" should be more specific. What about the rolling component of the CB at impact? Rolling, stun, draw? A rolling center ball hit is VERY different than a stunned center ball hit. The latter is something, IMO, you'd almost NEVER want to do unless you have a straight in shot.
Lux-man,
I'm not sure whether you're assessment is correct. This is an area where there is a lot of misperception.
I have been fortunate to spend time with a fairly large number of pros; and know only one that uses "helping English" on routine cuts. Many use it on radical cuts (near 90 degrees); but the diagrammed shot here is just a medium cut.
Every pro (except one - Grady) has told me to use no sidespin - it just makes your pocketing less accurate since you introduce squirt, curve, and throw into the equation (while there is contact induced throw for all such shots, the "helping" English may or may not help depending on the speed, amount of English, and amount of cut). The upshot of "helping" English on such routine shots is: LITTLE IF ANY POSITIVES; LOTS OF NEGATIVES. Stray from the vertical axis at your own peril.
Having said all of that, any medium level pro will pocket that shot with any amount of inside or outside that you like (but his percentages are almost invariably just a tad lower with any sidespin - guys with straight strokes know this, they've learned the hard way).
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on estreme cuts it does help...
It absolutely helps on extreme cuts especially where the OB is close to the rail.
But for average cuts, I thin it's better to use what the shape calls for...
Jaden
It absolutely helps on extreme cuts especially where the OB is close to the rail.
But for average cuts, I thin it's better to use what the shape calls for...
Jaden
This works only when the CB is fairly close to the OB. For more info, see:
Regards,
Dave
Actually, I'd hit this at near break speed -- really tattoo the back of the pocket -- and do it in a way where you can't tell which part of the cue ball I'd hit. Just to mess with your head.
All funnin' aside, I think people are making this shot more difficult than it needs to be. With this shot as diagrammed, the game is obviously 8-ball -- the money ball. Pocket the ball in the most assured manner -- firm center-ball, to minimize the skidding variables. Send the ball to the pocket. Don't overthink it. I think this thread is becoming a case of "paralysis through analysis." As the good doctor says when you tell him, "doc, it hurts when I do this..." -- "Then don't do that."
-Sean
Lux-man,
Draw and outside English give similar paths when viewed on tape. It is one of the inadequacies of tape.
Also, the question is "when position doesn't matter...." ; on your tapes you can be certain that position usually does matter.
I'll be happy to ask Johnny Archer and Nick Varner when they arrive Wednesday in Betmore's Basement (had to drop at least one name per post...).
Willie:
You nailed it. The more variables you introduce into this shot, the more "things that can go wrong." "Helper"/outside english can be a great thing when used properly -- especially with a tough cut that requires the cue ball to be spun out for position on the next shot. But this is the money shot! No need to make this fancy -- just pocket the ball. And it's a straight-forward shot; I'm shooting this center ball all day, unless there's a danger of scratching in that upper-right corner pocket, in which case I'll put a little draw on the cue ball. Just put a good stroke on it, that's all.
I've seen TOO MANY people overspin this shot with supposed "helper" english, and they sold out because they sent the 8-ball on the "unprofessional side" of the pocket -- the long rail. Thus, with the cue ball heading in the same direction, they leave the opponent with a near straight-in shot on an 8-ball only inches from the corner pocket.
"Doc, it hurts when I do this..." "Then don't do that."
-Sean
You know, a funny thing happens when people verbally ASK great players how they play. They don't play pool with words, but they do answer that question in words. Therefore there's a translation involved. It, like all other translations, is dubiously reliable.
An allegory from another sport: ask Jack Nicklaus how to hit a draw; starting the ball right of target and curving it left toward a back-left pin placement for example. He'll tell you (you can find it in his videos): align my body to the right, where I want the ball to start, and align my club-face to the target, where I want the ball to curve to. It sounds quite plausible.
But physics don't lie, and if Jack did what he claims, he'd hook it into the water, left of the green, every time. That's because physics tells us that the direction the ball starts is determined by face angle, not swing path. And that the amount the ball curves depends on swing path relative to face angle. So really, Jack points his club face right of target (where he wants the ball to start), and swings toward a spot even further right of target than where the face is pointing, and this puts counter-clockwise spin on the ball as viewed from above, which curves it onto the green. It rolls to within 3 feet of the cup, because Jack's a great golfer.
The thing you really wouldn't expect, is that the part of Jack's brain that explains this in words in his instructional video actually doesn't know how to hit a draw shot. It remembers the same wrong advice he heard when he was a beginner, and repeats it. The part of his brain that actually controls his movements while he actually hits the actual shot, however, knows how to get that ball within 3 feet of the cup, and executes it beautifully.
I guess what I'm saying is, all the pros in the world might think they don't usually use english when they have a shot like the one diagrammed in this thread on the money ball, but they're wrong. While they're telling you they hit the ball with center ball, the part of their brain that actually controls what they do when this shot is on the table and the money's on the line gets down and hits it with outside english. Any idiot can see it from the measles on the ball, or just looking at the angle the ball comes off the rail.
-Andrew
You still haven't specified if the CB should be rolling or stunned (no roll) on impact with the OB. Because there is no clarification, I'm assuming you think it doesn't matter if the CB is hit with natural roll or stun (as long as the shot is hit on the CB's vertical axis).
I'm guessing you're a somewhat advanced player (if you label yourself a 14.1 addict). If that's the case, I can pretty much guarantee that don't stun the CB with center ball on the (vast) majority of your cut shots. Either you hit the CB with natural roll, or if you do stun the CB you're applying a dose of outside english (and you probably are not even aware of it).
I guess my point is that there actually is (or should be) a wrong answer to the question. And that answer is shooting the CB with center ball STUN.
Great point Andrew.
I took the lesson with those two. Awesome time. Varner said he loves to use english on banks for sure. The nine ball shots that the pros take with angles seem to go two rails with running english a LOT. We discussed this once and one suggestion which I thought had merit was that they like to let their stroke out on the nine.
One other thought about my observation that the pros shoot the nine with low outside was that since nine ball is mostly low outside shots (I've heard 50-85%) they are so used to using low outside they my as well keep using it. Maybe in a straight pool match when the same pro is hitting the winning 125th shot he might hit the same shot differently.