Yeah, maybe like in golf, like when one of those balls hits a tree and bounces back out on the fairway, they should take away a stroke or two from that player.
Stevie Moore's Rules argument with Justin
- Thread starter RobertR
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Yeah, maybe like in golf, like when one of those balls hits a tree and bounces back out on the fairway, they should take away a stroke or two from that player.
How is playing from someone else's divot NOT an example of what you are referring to? It is not the same condition for each player if I drive it down the middle and land in a divot, and my playing opponent drives it 3 yards to the right of me in a divot that has been replaced properly and has a perfect lie!!!! My condition is a result of a player's shot in front of me, and what he has left me with, not my own doing. It is all relative.
There is another BIGGER problem with 'call shot'.There are many players who like to disobey the rules and not follow the orderliness of the society.These people when they are shooting a ball sitting one inch from the pocket,refuse to call the shot with the argument 'well,that is obvious'.This kind of argument and logic paves the way for 'slippery slope'.
Next time another player says that the pocket is obious when the ball is 3 feet away from the pocket and the ball is is in the direction of the pocket.some tornament directors,pundits,experts also feel that u do not have to call obvious shots.What is obvious to one player is not obvious to another player.This will cause arguments and fights.
There should not be any problem with the rule if 'every ball MUST& SHOULD be called'.
Sorry if this has been talked about already, but here is my opinion FWIW (sorry it became a longer post than intended):
I don't like the rule of call shot & if you miss the incoming player has the choice whether or not to shoot it w/ball in hand if there's no hit.
OK, so your opponent misses a shot and gets lucky with a leave, it happens to both sides. What this rule takes away is the beauty & creativity of the 2 way shot (if it makes you have shape, if not you are safe). Nothing lucky about that, it is part of the game, and a dang good part that will be sorely missed if this rule becomes mainstream.
Shouldn't the better thinker with control of both the object ball and the cueball be rewarded? This would favor the better player in the long run, wouldn't it? So the better player may lose a set because of a lucky roll, but what happened the rest of the set to get their opponent on the hill in the 1st place to win by "luck". My guess is the better player didn't play their best, but still feels they deserve to win. Why?
Besides, didn't the move to 10-ball supposed to take the break out of the equation (luck or skill, no matter)? I guess they didn't tell SVB about that part, huh? Moving to 10-ball also took away the 9-pack to come from behind in a set, which was very exciting to watch. There is still plenty of luck on the break the way the balls fall, it is impossible to remove all luck from the game no matter what you try.
Example: the best way to remove luck is to make the game equal offense starting with a prearranged position of all balls - no break at all. The same for both - maybe 10 different layouts for each to determine the winner. Let's say your opponent does not hit the shot perfectly and runs the cueball into a ball. The outcome will be different each time because you're running into a ball you do not mean to: sometimes you'll be hooked, sometimes you'll clear for shape, etc. The outcome for position in this example is based on total luck after not hitting the cueball as wished. Sh*t happens.
Let the rules stand or go back to push out on all shots, call pocket is OK w/o the harsh penalty of choice to shoot or not. At least w/push out you can be creative, make some great shots, play 2 way shots and you don't have to accept what the table or player leaves you. But what is best for the spectators - it's not always about the players you know.
Dave
I don't like the rule of call shot & if you miss the incoming player has the choice whether or not to shoot it w/ball in hand if there's no hit.
OK, so your opponent misses a shot and gets lucky with a leave, it happens to both sides. What this rule takes away is the beauty & creativity of the 2 way shot (if it makes you have shape, if not you are safe). Nothing lucky about that, it is part of the game, and a dang good part that will be sorely missed if this rule becomes mainstream.
Shouldn't the better thinker with control of both the object ball and the cueball be rewarded? This would favor the better player in the long run, wouldn't it? So the better player may lose a set because of a lucky roll, but what happened the rest of the set to get their opponent on the hill in the 1st place to win by "luck". My guess is the better player didn't play their best, but still feels they deserve to win. Why?
Besides, didn't the move to 10-ball supposed to take the break out of the equation (luck or skill, no matter)? I guess they didn't tell SVB about that part, huh? Moving to 10-ball also took away the 9-pack to come from behind in a set, which was very exciting to watch. There is still plenty of luck on the break the way the balls fall, it is impossible to remove all luck from the game no matter what you try.
Example: the best way to remove luck is to make the game equal offense starting with a prearranged position of all balls - no break at all. The same for both - maybe 10 different layouts for each to determine the winner. Let's say your opponent does not hit the shot perfectly and runs the cueball into a ball. The outcome will be different each time because you're running into a ball you do not mean to: sometimes you'll be hooked, sometimes you'll clear for shape, etc. The outcome for position in this example is based on total luck after not hitting the cueball as wished. Sh*t happens.
Let the rules stand or go back to push out on all shots, call pocket is OK w/o the harsh penalty of choice to shoot or not. At least w/push out you can be creative, make some great shots, play 2 way shots and you don't have to accept what the table or player leaves you. But what is best for the spectators - it's not always about the players you know.
Dave
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I would like to make some observations concerning this thread if I may. 1) There seems to be a tendency by some, to refer to anyone that seemingly lucked out on a roll as a nit, a banger, or some other insulting reference. You should be reminded that you were not born with your skills and all of you were nits and bangers at one time. A little more humility might be in order. And 2) The "numbers" the industry is looking for will never be in an audience. It's like watching chess. Only the knowledgeable like to watch. Promoting participation is the only recourse. If you learn to play you enjoy watching professionals play. Which leads me to point 3) We have what? 20 million pool players in this country? Why not ask them what rules we should have. And please remember where the money you are winning comes from. Every sponsor dollar you get comes from "nits and bangers" pockets. We are the ones that buy their products. We are the ones that watch you play! Lucky us!
You are assuming intent. This is one of the problems with the deferment rule (the incoming player has the right to defer the shot back to the original shooter in the event of a miss), it reduces the game to either you intend to pocket a ball or you intend not to pocket a ball. It only emphasizes the pocketing of a ball when the game is really not that simple.
Position play is strategy. A shooter addresses each shot to accomplish two things, final position of the object ball and final position of the cue ball. The shooter must control both of these in order to be successful.
The deferment rule reduces a shooter's ability to analyze the table and select the best possible shot combination. Everyone will do some kind of cost/benefit analysis of the table based on their skill level, equipment, comfort level, etc. Sometimes a 2 way shot is the best option on the table for the shooter. A 2 way shot requires the same control of the cue ball and object ball, same as a safety or a sell-out shot.
A two way shot allows you to intend on two acceptable outcomes of the shot in which you have control over. It requires the cue ball control of a safety and the aim and control of an offensive shot. I don't see what makes this "lucky."
It requires one to assume the cue ball's final position was unintentional, or "lucky," when the object ball is not pocketed but intentional (and therefore ok) when the shot is made. This rule is supposedly made to protect the non-shooting player from unintentional results (luck) in regards to cue ball positioning. This is not possible without making a value judgement of every single shot in the same regards, which is just not possible.
Should a non-shooting player be penalized because the shooter caromed the cue ball off another ball for shape on the next ball? After all, had that ball not been there, the shooter wouldn't of had good position on his next ball. Did he mean to carom off that ball? If he did then, good shot. If he didn't, then he shouldn't reap the rewards, right? We don't want him to run the rest of this rack because he got lucky.
Each shot requires intent on both cue ball position and object ball position. How can you assume that these are exclusive in some instances yet the same in others? If you miss a shot it is assumed both outcomes of the shot were unintentional (cue ball position and object ball position). This logic dictates that a pocketed ball would indicate the cue ball's position was intentional. This logic simply does not hold up. A shooter pockets a ball and scratches. The object ball position was intentional but the cue ball position was unintentional. Therefore, we know can show a strong argument that cue ball position and object ball position can be separate in terms of intent (luck). I do not see the logic in instituting rules that ignores this fact, especially when it is under the guise of being FAIR!
Removing "luck" from the game means removing unintended results. Unintended results are a natural part of the game. Attempts to quantify and qualify intended vs. unintended results will always, in some way, violate the very nature of this game.
Pool is an imperfect game played by imperfect people. This is the essence of pool and games in general. We, as players, should embrace the fact that just because you think you are better you still aren't a lock to win. The unpredictability of it makes it exciting. It is what makes it a sport and a fun thing to participate in. Green Bay just won the Super Bowl and they were the 6th seed. They were not the "best" team. If they were, wouldn't they have been the 1 seed? Should football change their rules so the "best" teams always win? Everyone watched, enjoyed, and maybe even bet on it because the end result was not known beforehand.
These rules eliminate the double shot. Meaning going for a tough shot and hooking the cue ball so if the bank or whatever does not fall, the incoming player is hooked, and if it goes you have a shot on the next ball. These rules will make more and more safety play happen and will make the game less exciting to watch as very few really hard shots will be made any longer, as it will cause a safety game to rule.
Christ almighty! That "someone else" is called your opponent! Get used to it! Without an opponent there would be no match or challenge! Take up solitaire!
Very well said! I've been making the same point for years, but you did so more eloquently.
Those rules are the worst rules I have ever seen...I mean you really think you are taking luck out by limiting the amount of sloppy shots?
That is crazy...It adds luck. Those horrible rules are really saying the only lucky shot should be the break, and safes. Oh yeah, and no two way shots.
You really want to take the luck out make the pool players CALL THEIR NEXT SHOT!
The rules you guys are talking about are a joke geared for the ones that spent all their time relying on their eyes to play pool. It is sad to watch those types of players at all, it takes them 1 min to shoot every ball (killing pro pool). I would rather go to the dentist than watch that type of pro player try to play pool. I hate a guy that takes ten min to get to his next miss...thing is he is still on the five ball...It takes this jackass that long to play every game no matter how easy a game it is...Then the same idiot thinks why isn't anyone paying to watch this???
That is crazy...It adds luck. Those horrible rules are really saying the only lucky shot should be the break, and safes. Oh yeah, and no two way shots.
You really want to take the luck out make the pool players CALL THEIR NEXT SHOT!
The rules you guys are talking about are a joke geared for the ones that spent all their time relying on their eyes to play pool. It is sad to watch those types of players at all, it takes them 1 min to shoot every ball (killing pro pool). I would rather go to the dentist than watch that type of pro player try to play pool. I hate a guy that takes ten min to get to his next miss...thing is he is still on the five ball...It takes this jackass that long to play every game no matter how easy a game it is...Then the same idiot thinks why isn't anyone paying to watch this???
You know what forget luck! Let's find a way to take the whining outta pool! I've never witnessed so much crying from grown ups in my entire life! Yeah i go into a match with the understanding that i my get lucky, and my opponent may get lucky! It's that simple folks! I may play better, my opponent may play better, may go to the hill, may be a blowout.
Gawd these threads wear on me 
Yes, let's take out everything but perfection....
1. You must call a ball on the break
2. You much call any touches on another ball
3. If you hit the edge of the pocket you must call that
4. If you hit the rail before the pocket, you much call it
5. If you intent to break out a ball, you must call it, and must complete the breakout in order to shoot again
6. You put down a paper square on the table to show where the cueball will be, loss of turn if you don't hit it with your position
7. If you break wind and don't call it, you lose your turn for unannounced flatulence
Yeah, let's take all the fun out of the game and get more people to turn the channel......yawn
Yes, let's take out everything but perfection....
1. You must call a ball on the break
2. You much call any touches on another ball
3. If you hit the edge of the pocket you must call that
4. If you hit the rail before the pocket, you much call it
5. If you intent to break out a ball, you must call it, and must complete the breakout in order to shoot again
6. You put down a paper square on the table to show where the cueball will be, loss of turn if you don't hit it with your position
7. If you break wind and don't call it, you lose your turn for unannounced flatulence
Yeah, let's take all the fun out of the game and get more people to turn the channel......yawn
That is the rules the pros are playing 10 ball with. Threw me off the first time I saw it happen. I saw johny archer at valley forge last year miss a ball and get a lucky safe. I looked away and when looked back he was lineing up the shot. I had to ask the guy next to me what happened lol
I believe we should use the best of both ideas.
Play 9 & 10 ball as usual with one exception, you must play a call shot on the money ball. If you call the money ball on a combination and it don't go in the intended pocket you opponent has the option even if another ball is pocketed during the combination attempt.
If your opponent accidentally slops in the money while shooting another shot, just spot the money ball and keep shooting if the original ball being shot at was pocketed. If the original shot was not pocketed and the money ball is slopped in then your opponent has the option.
I think this would be a great compromise :wink:
Play 9 & 10 ball as usual with one exception, you must play a call shot on the money ball. If you call the money ball on a combination and it don't go in the intended pocket you opponent has the option even if another ball is pocketed during the combination attempt.
If your opponent accidentally slops in the money while shooting another shot, just spot the money ball and keep shooting if the original ball being shot at was pocketed. If the original shot was not pocketed and the money ball is slopped in then your opponent has the option.
I think this would be a great compromise :wink:
Billy.Riley
Rack'em Sausage.
I believe people don't want to watch pool is because its not exciting enough to the average non-player. For example poker wouldn't be exciting without pocket card cams and heavy editing to remove no action hands. Who wants to spend minutes away watching hand after hand fold.
In the same sense do you think the average non-player wants to see defense after defense. I think if you increased the speed at which games go and remove defense where as players must always pocket a ball the shots would be outstanding to watch. Which would increase the excitement of watching and the interest of non-player market.
In the same sense do you think the average non-player wants to see defense after defense. I think if you increased the speed at which games go and remove defense where as players must always pocket a ball the shots would be outstanding to watch. Which would increase the excitement of watching and the interest of non-player market.
i agree, good post.
another thing how good someone plays isnt any indication of how smart they are, I know tons more about pool than lots of 16 year old kids that can shoot my nuts off. Talent isnt a subtution for brains, or the other way around.
here is another great post, Magic rack is a product that WILL IMO have a huge impact on pool. Its gonna be used in the next FB Challenge
Since I cant play after 30 years of trying, I'm a real big fan of luck. I'd rather be lucky than good. and from a spectators point of view luck is fun to watch unless its in a chess game-and watching chess really sucks. Pool isnt a good spectator sport anyways.
One day about 2 years ago me and Cotton were playing banks, at the time thats all we were playing, we were both playing pretty good one day, Cotton awalys plays good but this particular day he was really playing good, so was I we played 6-4 short rack banks. A friend of mine walked in and saw us playing, he knows very little about pool. we were gambling so we didnt say much to him. He caught on quickly to the rules-without a long explanation(I hate the long explanation on ESPN for 9 ball everytime the show starts). He was impressed with the shots and excited to see 2 and 3 rail banks Cotton was making, He could see that I wasnt as strong, he understood the handicapp that i needed 4 to Cottons 6 to win. He watched for a couple hours. He said it was the only time he watched pool that he understood how difficult it is and could appreciate what it is that we were doing. Non-players dont get rotation games. People like bank shots they are like slam dunks in Basket ball. Short rack banks is a game anyone can understand and the best player gets the $$$, there aint much luck in banks(So that problem is solved), the break problem is solved. We have a game that is over looked that is exciting and favorable to the better players yet when was the last time you saw Banks on ESPN? NEVER!
One day about 2 years ago me and Cotton were playing banks, at the time thats all we were playing, we were both playing pretty good one day, Cotton awalys plays good but this particular day he was really playing good, so was I we played 6-4 short rack banks. A friend of mine walked in and saw us playing, he knows very little about pool. we were gambling so we didnt say much to him. He caught on quickly to the rules-without a long explanation(I hate the long explanation on ESPN for 9 ball everytime the show starts). He was impressed with the shots and excited to see 2 and 3 rail banks Cotton was making, He could see that I wasnt as strong, he understood the handicapp that i needed 4 to Cottons 6 to win. He watched for a couple hours. He said it was the only time he watched pool that he understood how difficult it is and could appreciate what it is that we were doing. Non-players dont get rotation games. People like bank shots they are like slam dunks in Basket ball. Short rack banks is a game anyone can understand and the best player gets the $$$, there aint much luck in banks(So that problem is solved), the break problem is solved. We have a game that is over looked that is exciting and favorable to the better players yet when was the last time you saw Banks on ESPN? NEVER!
What is your opinions on jump cues?