Open v.s. Pro ?

B

bobbybamateur

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Hello fellow A Z Billiard followers, this is my first post in this forum, and i would like to hear from player's that can tell me what they think the difference between an Open Player and a Pro Player, and do you think they should pay the same entry fee into a tournament! Thank's for your input!!
 
Hi Bobby

IMHO a tournament is a kind of a product. So why should a pro player pay more for it than others?
Now many may say that they usually make the money. This is true! But again I have to ask why should the pay more? The probably invested more time and/or money to become the players they are - some might just be talented. And now that they reached a pro speed they have to pay more because of that?
In an earlier thread this week a, I guess, young guy is asking what it takes to become pro and pool "oldies" like Jay Helfert say that it needs more than 20 hours of practicing a week, maybe even more than 30 hours - for a few years in a row. I think nothing should be done to "punish" this effort.

Best Regards

Marcus
 
gotama said:
Hi Bobby

IMHO a tournament is a kind of a product. So why should a pro player pay more for it than others?
Now many may say that they usually make the money. This is true! But again I have to ask why should the pay more? The probably invested more time and/or money to become the players they are - some might just be talented. And now that they reached a pro speed they have to pay more because of that?
In an earlier thread this week a, I guess, young guy is asking what it takes to become pro and pool "oldies" like Jay Helfert say that it needs more than 20 hours of practicing a week, maybe even more than 30 hours - for a few years in a row. I think nothing should be done to "punish" this effort.

Best Regards

Marcus
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good post.
in pool you get punished for being a good player.
 
converse perception

Its not a matter of the pro paying more, its a matter of 'prorating' the entry fee for the lesser players hoping that he/she is willing to come out and play. Up in my region (NYC), the amateur is the majority of a tourney's turnout. (I'm talking about tournaments, not league) If you told a d-level player they had to pay $100.00 to play in tournament and their first round match was against say, Mika, they would not show up. But if you advertise that the d-level player can pay only $40.00 to play against a pro/notable/popular player, they would come 'skipping with happiness' to the table (this is what people are into). This is how tournaments get their head count and their money count up. But if everyone had to pay an equivalent entry fee, then then the anticipated majority would not show up. I'm not an advocate of it, but this is the science being practiced. Now as for the open versus pro entry fee, if you have two different classes, then you should have two different entry fees. And I'm not talking about a $5.00 or $10.00 dollar difference, I'm talking about a difference as to where people are not posting on azbilliards about this topic...lol! Me personally, if you have a 'handicap' tourney, staggered entry fees is reasonable. But the tours MUST guard against 'unknowns' slipping in as a-b-c-d players (thats a WHOLE nother subject). If you have an 'open' tournament, then everyone should pay EVEN across the board.

PEACE

WUTANG
 
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I certainly agree that professionals should not pay more. An open tournament is, in itself, "open" to anyone.

Sometimes, some organizers might offer discounted entry to amateurs that have little o no chance to finish in the money in an attempt to increase the prize fund, make the event profitable or even just promote competitive pool.

Although this could work pretty well, the main problem is establishing who is an amateur rather than a higher skilled player capable of taking prize money off the rest.
The lack of a standard, fair and universal ranking system makes this very complicated.

Allowing amateur players a reduced entry fee is remotely comparable to spotting while gambling. It allows more money to be taken by the pros/better players but it is rather difficult to establish the spot and who should get it.

I, not being more than a B player (at best), might play tournaments where I have no chance of finishing in the money, but only if the entry fee is not silly high; since for me it is more like practice/donation. On the other hand, better players are going to complain if entry fees are not high enough because they can't get enough return for their investment. It is all about striking the right balance.

In the US I see you have tournaments where money is added, in Spain our opens are basically only entry fee funded and you usually have to pay for table time/tokens.

In the end, this is a sport that requires a lot of dedication and sacrifice for very little return usually. But we still love it. :rolleyes:
It would be great if there was more funding and support from sponsors / governments / federations.

IMHO, of course.
 
In Japan, amateurs pay half the entry of pros. The catch is, amateurs only get half of the winnings of the pros if they cash. Pros have to pass a test to be considered a pro, but the test would be fairly easy for anyone who can cash in a pro or big open tournament.

Its basically a "rate yourself" handicap system which works really well to attract weaker players and protect the better players. If you think you have a good chance at the bigger money, you go pass the pro test and enter as a pro. If you just want the experience, you play as an amateur and pay a smaller entry.

With this system, tournaments like the Japan Open regularly attract over 400 players yearly even though the entry is around $200 US and the first place prize is only $20-25kish.
 
Open v.s. Pro?

I want to thank all the people for their honest opinion's about this matter, i play pool in the New York area, i am considered an Open Class Player, i certainly attribute my playing speed to 3 New York Players, Tony Robles, George Sansouci, and Frankie Hernandez, i grew up playing with these 3 player's playing in just about every tournament that they played in, and watched and developed my skill's while competing with them, unfortunatley, i have WORKED ( meaning putting in a 40+ ) work week every week for the past 20 years, and have not had time to take my game to the next level, i have never went out '' ON THE ROAD '', which i think would have definetly honed my skills by Gambling more, but fortunatley when i retire, i will have a pension. Not worrying where my money will come from when the rent is due or where to get my next meal.
 
Open v.s. Pro?

Continuing, i started playing on a tour in New York called the Predator tour, which Tony Robles is currently running, i played the first year, and did rather well, cashing in the Open- Pro event but never actually winning one, the entry fees were staggered for A B C D Players but not the Open-Pro Event. So at the end of the first season, at the last tournament, Tony put on the table at the Last Event at Raxx Billiards a thing called a '' SUGGESTION SHEET '' this had plenty of GREAT questions about the Predator Tour, and it ASKED THE PLAYER'S, what they liked and disliked about the tour during their first season, i thought this was the BEST, BEST possible way to continue to run one of the best tour's around, simply because you are GETTING THE PLAYER'S INPUT, on what are the likes and Dislikes of how the tour is being run. So there were many people who filled them out, and along came next Season!
 
Let me get this straight. In pool gambling, the lesser player is supposed to get weight so that he/she will have at least a chance against a better player. This is acceptable as far as I can tell.

But in a non-handicapped tournament, that same lesser player may have to pair up with that same better player, play with NO weight, and have to pay the SAME entry fee? And this is acceptable???

It would be like shootin' fish in a barrel :(.

Like some posters said, that tournament would eventually find the entrants list slowly dwindling down. The better players NEED these lesser players to "sweeten up" the pot so there's more money to be made by the top finishers.

I mean, come on, the lesser players are just more or less "contributing". Don't gouge the hell out of them. You'll just run them off and THEN realize how much better the tournament was when they were showing up.

Now that said, I think EQUAL entry fees are in order for HANDICAPPED tournaments. In that format, everyone has a chance at the top places and all should pay accordingly to enter.

Geez, there's a LOT of greed in the pool world!!!

Maniac
 
Open v.s. Pro?

Continuing again, so in this '' SUGGESTION SHEET '' not alot but every open player, or should i say working open player, all put down that they would like to see a professional player pay just a little more than a open class player, anything, 10.00 15.00 dollars, anything, so the next two seasons went by and sticking to my personal belief's, I became a RAILBIRD, did not play in one tournament, and the worst part was every Tournament i went to, people i know asked me WHY i was not playing in the Tournament, iand i told them that i was not happy with the entry fee for an open and pro player, 10 people asked me at every Tournament why i wasn't playing and i ''SOUNDED LIKE A BROKEN RECORD '' telling them the same story. So '' I WAS CONSIDERED THE BAD GUY '' when i just sat there and watched the game that i love so dearly, because of my ''OWN '' personal beliefs, pool is like a drug, and many people cannot help themselves but to play, and that's great, but having the self-control, i would just stick to my local tournament's to keep in Stroke!
 
Open v.s. Pro?

Lastly, i just want to say that i was really looking foward to playing in the predator Tour this year because Tournament director William Finnegan told me a month before the predator started 2011, that the entry for a Pro would be 115.00 and a Open would be 100.00, i was in heaven seeing that i can finally play in a ''FAIR '' Tournament, which '' ALL '' the entry level's were staggered correctly, IMHO, I have alway's supported the Predator Tour and Mr. Tony Robles, who i happen to think and know is one of the ''BEST '' and '' Fairest '' Gentleman i have ever known, ( I know he got most of that from his Father, lol,) then i asked Tournament Director Finnegan what happened to the Entry Fees with the Open-Pro class, there still the same, and he gave he usual non-shalent answer, i have nothing to do with that, and i was devestated, so i ''Truly '' wish, the Predator Tour the best of luck again this year, but unfortunatley, I will be a ''RAILBIRD '' ( hate it! ) this year again, and will be known as '' the bad guy '' for sticking to my personal beliefs, but this is America, and the right of ''FREEDOM OF SPEECH '' still holds true, for now!! Thank you everyone for listening to what i said here, and please would appreciate what you guy's think, Thanks, Bobby B.
 
bobbybamateur said:
Hello fellow A Z Billiard followers, this is my first post in this forum, and i would like to hear from player's that can tell me what they think the difference between an Open Player and a Pro Player, and do you think they should pay the same entry fee into a tournament! Thank's for your input!!
Click to expand...

I think the same entry should apply. Not much diff in play anyway
as far as the races in a tournament.A pro is struggling to make it anyway. The working open player has the advantage. He gets a paycheck win or lose
On a side note,,,Welcome to AZ.
 
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bobbybamateur said:
Lastly, i just want to say that i was really looking foward to playing in the predator Tour this year because Tournament director William Finnegan told me a month before the predator started 2011, that the entry for a Pro would be 115.00 and a Open would be 100.00, i was in heaven seeing that i can finally play in a ''FAIR '' Tournament, which '' ALL '' the entry level's were staggered correctly, IMHO, I have alway's supported the Predator Tour and Mr. Tony Robles, who i happen to think and know is one of the ''BEST '' and '' Fairest '' Gentleman i have ever known, ( I know he got most of that from his Father, lol,) then i asked Tournament Director Finnegan what happened to the Entry Fees with the Open-Pro class, there still the same, and he gave he usual non-shalent answer, i have nothing to do with that, and i was devestated, so i ''Truly '' wish, the Predator Tour the best of luck again this year, but unfortunatley, I will be a ''RAILBIRD '' ( hate it! ) this year again, and will be known as '' the bad guy '' for sticking to my personal beliefs, but this is America, and the right of ''FREEDOM OF SPEECH '' still holds true, for now!! Thank you everyone for listening to what i said here, and please would appreciate what you guy's think, Thanks, Bobby B.
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You are complaining about the difference of $15.00. That is just being cheap.

As a pro, I sure would not like one bit being discriminated against because of my skill level and that is exactly what having different entry fees based on skill is.

Entry fees need to be the same for all. Period.

Sad that there are those that just don't get it. Those that want special considerations that is not offered to all when there is no real reason other than people being cheap and not man up to play with the big boys.
 
duckie said:
You are complaining about the difference of $15.00. That is just being cheap.

As a pro, I sure would not like one bit being discriminated against because of my skill level and that is exactly what having different entry fees based on skill is.

Entry fees need to be the same for all. Period.

Sad that there are those that just don't get it. Those that want special considerations that is not offered to all when there is no real reason other than people being cheap and not man up to play with the big boys.
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I kinda think the same could be said for pros who want to change the rules to call pocket.

Man up!
 
bobbybamateur said:
Lastly, i just want to say that i was really looking foward to playing in the predator Tour this year because Tournament director William Finnegan told me a month before the predator started 2011, that the entry for a Pro would be 115.00 and a Open would be 100.00, i was in heaven seeing that i can finally play in a ''FAIR '' Tournament, which '' ALL '' the entry level's were staggered correctly, IMHO, I have alway's supported the Predator Tour and Mr. Tony Robles, who i happen to think and know is one of the ''BEST '' and '' Fairest '' Gentleman i have ever known, ( I know he got most of that from his Father, lol,) then i asked Tournament Director Finnegan what happened to the Entry Fees with the Open-Pro class, there still the same, and he gave he usual non-shalent answer, i have nothing to do with that, and i was devestated, so i ''Truly '' wish, the Predator Tour the best of luck again this year, but unfortunatley, I will be a ''RAILBIRD '' ( hate it! ) this year again, and will be known as '' the bad guy '' for sticking to my personal beliefs, but this is America, and the right of ''FREEDOM OF SPEECH '' still holds true, for now!! Thank you everyone for listening to what i said here, and please would appreciate what you guy's think, Thanks, Bobby B.
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Bobby Bobby Bobby, what am I going to do with you. I agree with everything you said except for sitting on the sideline. First you play way too good to sit on the sideline. You can easily beat anyone who plays regularly on the Predator Tour. Never let something as small as $15 dollars get in the way of you enjoying the game you love. I know I know it's principle, but this is not something worth getting yourself upset about. We must pick and choose our battles in life. Something like this should never cause you one day of stress my friend.

I believe you are right, but don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Enjoy life you only life once.
 
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Masayoshi said:
In Japan, amateurs pay half the entry of pros. The catch is, amateurs only get half of the winnings of the pros if they cash. Pros have to pass a test to be considered a pro, but the test would be fairly easy for anyone who can cash in a pro or big open tournament.
Click to expand...

Is this "Pro" Test and scoring system published online anywhere (particularly in english)? It would be interesting to see what the criteria are.

Thanks,
 
Honestly, with all the ways good players get punished for practicing (ie. handicapping, not even being allowed to play even if you aren't a pro) staggered fees are kind of a lesser evil. At least everyone can play and there aren't handicaps.

If on the other hand entries are staggered and there are handicaps, I think that is ludicrous.
 
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