what are handicaps (in leagues) for?

trustyrusty

trustyrusty

I'm better with a wedge!
Silver Member
Just a minor rant here; actually more of an observation than a rant. A little backround first - the league I play in is a barbox 8 ball league. It's take what you make on the break, race to your handicap, and loser breaks. All the rest of the rules are typical league 8 ball league rules (BIH, call pocket, etc.).

My observation may be explained simply as a persons auto-reflex of blame for losing, but let's see what you think. I've noticed that almost every time a lower handicap player beats a higher handicapped one, there is a question of whether the winner is undercapped.....

I have a player on my team that won hill/hill; my buddy is a 4 and his opponent a 5. My 4 played well, as did the opponent. The game before the hill my 4 made a VERY nice out....this was the game in question really, since the statement was then uttered - "you're a 4, huh?" I knew then my 4 would win. I was right, the 5 dogged the ball prior to the 8 ball, and my teammate won.

Anyway, if these 2 same players played the same race (5 to 4) over and over, I truly think it'd be REALLY close to a 50/50 outcome. If my 4 were raised to a 5, and they played over and over that way....his opponent would have a distinct advantage. Isn't that what handicaps are supposed to do - make the race fair? Yet it seems whenever a better player loses giving up a spot, then the one getting spotted shouldn't be spotted anymore...lol. I don't get it.

btw, the ratings are far from APA ratings, since we have former APA 7s in 8 ball that rate as 5s, 6s, 7s, and an 8. 4s in this league I'd say are typical 5s and weaker 6s in APA - meaning they still can run out a rack that has no REAL problems in it. My 4 did get out in the 2nd to last game in a situation he might only do 25-30% of the time (and one his opponent may be able to pull off 50-60% of the time....wasn't easy, probably should have played safe somewhere).

I think someone's handicap rating has nothing to do with whether or not he/she can pull off a certain shot, or get out of a tough situation, but rather the percentage of the time they can pull that off, and even the decision making skills on whether or not they should try to.....What say you?
 
I didn't read all those letters, but...

Handicaps are a way to make matches closer to even between players of different skill levels.

I highly doubt perfection or complete happiness was promised.
 
I believe you are correct. It's not how well a person can possibly play, but how well they play consistently. Or "on average", I suppose.

If I play as well as I can, I can hang with most of the SL6's in my APA division, and have a reasonable match against the SL5's. (I'm an SL5.) But if I don't have my head in the right spot, I'll probably get beat by most of the SL4's and some of the SL3's. How well can I play, and for how long will dictate the outcome.

Some people match up better with certain players than with others, as well. There are certain players rated the same as me that I play better against than other similarly rated players. Style of play, aggressiveness vs safety-ability, etc. This may be the case with the 4 in your example.

I know it'll get beaten to death, as it always does. But I truly believe the way our particular APA division is handicapped is pretty close. There are a few players who are one level below what I'd consider them being, but that changes from week to week. And there are probably a few who aren't playing at their handicap-level currently as well. But for the most part, folks seem to be where they should be. No one is more than one level away from where they should be, and I doubt that there are more than one possible instance of a player being "off" on any given team. I think it's done pretty well here, given how tough a job it is in the first place.

At least that's the way it is here in my part of the world. I'll run along now, and find my flame-retardant outer-wear.
 
I don't think you have any doubt about what a handicap system is really supposed to accomplish. Everyone knows that an ideal handicap system should provide a roughly 50% chance of winning to any player, assuming that he is playing to win without reservation, and is accurately handicapped to begin with.

What I think we all struggle with in these situations is a conflict between reason and emotion. Our reason tells us that the handicap is there for a purpose that we have already accepted. Our emotion, though, tells us that we should usually beat a player of lesser skill. If a lesser skilled player is actually holding his own against us due to the handicap, something feels wrong about it. I think it's this emotional response that sometimes gets articulated in the heat of battle.

I don't think there's much that can be done about this kind of reaction; it's natural. If someone gets carried away to the point of challenging a handicap, throwing accusations about sandbagging, etc, then they should be taken aside for a little talking-to.
 
Bottom line.... handicaps are "for" ... to keep a balance in matchups close enough to keep the lesser-skilled players intersted in playing and keep the higher-skilled players feeling like the matchup is reasonable enough to keep it fair.


.... the problem is many times the balance is not kept.
 
What are handicaps used for?

They are used to punish players for improving. They are used to break up teams who do not sandbag enough to keep their combined handicaps under 23. They are used like a pyramid scheme to make more money for the "high & mighty" in St. Louis!

If the handicap system worked, they're would be no need for a "23 rule"!
 
At least in my area, the top 25 players or so don't even play in leagues for the most part. Only a couple of them do. So it's really a non issue among serious players.

I am occasionally in a league. I just play to win all 6 games. I care about the individual stats, not the team stats.
 
Handicaps exist to attract less skilled players to the league. The less skilled player's money is just a green as everybody else.
 
I see APA 8-ball as a beginner to intermediate league. YMMV, from my observance of the local APA scene, a C+ in 9-ball can qualify as a SL7, and Cs are definitely ranked as SL 6s.

Does the APA allow A level players to stay at SL7? If so, I don't see how the handicap table is skewed against them?

cuesmith said:
They are used to punish players for improving. They are used to break up teams who do not sandbag enough to keep their combined handicaps under 23. They are used like a pyramid scheme to make more money for the "high & mighty" in St. Louis!

If the handicap system worked, they're would be no need for a "23 rule"!
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cuesmith said:
They are used to punish players for improving. They are used to break up teams who do not sandbag enough to keep their combined handicaps under 23. They are used like a pyramid scheme to make more money for the "high & mighty" in St. Louis!

If the handicap system worked, they're would be no need for a "23 rule"!
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I think you are right on this one. If the handicap is to make the players equal then what difference would it make if a team had all 7 playing against a team of 3's and 4's? According to the handicap they should have equal chance of winning.

Dippy proved this with getting the spots at the Derby. He couldn't beat the pros heads up but he could with a spot.
 
You guys always take it too far with this.

I don't ever recall hearing or seeing that any handicap was guarunteed to make everything "equal".

Reasonable thinking people should understand that the better players are always gonna be better players. The handicap just gives the lesser player a chance, if they get hot and/or the better player makes too many mistakes.

"equal"

sheesh

If you guys are so bent on this, and that handicaps shouldn't exist, why do the gamblers give or get "spots"? Oh yes, that's right, the gambling and the hustle are to be revered, that's why.

It's the same thing. Does the spot make Dippy "equal" to the champions he's playing? No, of course not. No more than me being equal to the SL7's in my lowly APA league. But with the handicap I might stand a small chance. And that is why we use them. Without the handicaps, many of the casual players wouldn't care to spend money each week to get their brains beaten in with no practical chance at all. Those who are really into pool will gladly play anyone better, for the experience. But the casual player, not so much. And as someone pointed out, their money is important too.
 
ctyhntr said:
I see APA 8-ball as a beginner to intermediate league. YMMV, from my observance of the local APA scene, a C+ in 9-ball can qualify as a SL7, and Cs are definitely ranked as SL 6s.

Does the APA allow A level players to stay at SL7? If so, I don't see how the handicap table is skewed against them?
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I think for the most part you are right based on my experience. I think there are a lot of SL7's in APA 9-ball that are probably C+ players, although they will say they are B Players...lol.

In 9-ball, "A" level players would go to SL9 and yes they would be allowed to stay at that level. In 8-ball they would remain a SL7. Due to this, SL7 is the widest range of playing ability from C+ to A in 8-ball.
 
Handicaps

I have only ever played APA. In 8-ball I've been a 7 since my 3rd match, 9-ball I am a SL8 and striving to move up to a 9, and Masters division on my good days I can hang with anyone in the league.

So handicaps - its based on the average over a certain period of time. I joined a 9 ball team that was in desperate need of a player (team split during week 1 and it was week 4 and they didnt have a full team). I played 2 make up games and a regular match that night.

Match one - me SL7 vs SL4 - i'm a little off and he shoots lights out (more like a sl6) = I lose 17-3

Match two - me SL7 vs SL6 - I'm warming up and he's shooting ok = 13-7 Win

Match 3 - Me SL 7 vs SL5 - i'm warmed up and shooting good and they are having an off day = 16-4 win

Now any of the 3 matches could of gone completely opposite on any day of the week. People for the most part, do not play at their average level.
 
ctyhntr said:
I see APA 8-ball as a beginner to intermediate league. YMMV, from my observance of the local APA scene, a C+ in 9-ball can qualify as a SL7, and Cs are definitely ranked as SL 6s.

Does the APA allow A level players to stay at SL7? If so, I don't see how the handicap table is skewed against them?
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That is why I mentioned in my league their are players that formerly/or still play APA 8 ball. Our handicaps range from 3-8.....APA 7's in 8 ball are 5s, 6s, 7s, and one 8...lol. The 8 can no longer play in the APA, but when he did, he was a 7 playing other 7s that he spots 3 games on the wire to in our league. And, our league has loser breaks so he can't just run out the entire match - like he could do in the APA.

Oh, and no 23 cap either - which is NICE!

I guess my real complaint is when a 5 or 6 gets beat ONE TIME by a lower cap, and immediately says the lower cap needs raised....just funny. Has to be the handicap, not that they may have not played well, or the opponent just had a good (better than normal) match. I had a guy say something about me once after I beat him 5-2 (he was also a 5). So I racked the balls up after the final game, and said, "OK, I'll go to 6 then!" He walked off without shaking my hand, but I was only giving him what he said he wanted....me to have to win 1 more game. :confused: :p
 
trustyrusty said:
I guess my real complaint is when a 5 or 6 gets beat ONE TIME by a lower cap, and immediately says the lower cap needs raised....just funny. Has to be the handicap, not that they may have not played well, or the opponent just had a good (better than normal) match.
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As long as the loser is on the other team, what your describing is a good problem.

It happens all the time.

On a team I captained, when one of my players started whining like this, I told him, "Hey! There's no crying in pool!"

I don't think I would say this to someone on the other team though. :D
 
"T" said:
As long as the loser is on the other team, what your describing is a good problem.

It happens all the time.

On a team I captained, when one of my players started whining like this, I told him, "Hey! There's no crying in pool!"

I don't think I would say this to someone on the other team though. :D
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LOL - I probably would say it, but that's cuz my mouth thinks I'm 6'9" - 350 lbs. :p
 
Rusty, your original post seems spot on and far from a rant.....handicap, by design, should basically give the 50/50 split you explained....if it's an ongoing league with a bunch of regulars, everyone should know everyone elses speed.....handicaps should be no surprise....most people that have difficulty with them simply don't understand handicaps.....example, I had a guy complaining to me - he played in a weekly tourney that usually had about 25 players, and about 20 were regulars.......his complaint was that he was ranked too high because he only won about 1 in 10 tournaments.....I just shook my head, stupidity is strong with too many people to fight it.....I give up.....
 
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