PRO ONE DVD: Answering Questions

[sfleinen]

You're wrong. There are two ways you place your hand on the table (only two). You can drop your hand down to the cloth or you can slide your hand into position. Dropping your hand is random for the most part while sliding your hand into final position allows the players to align the hand more accurately. I believe it was Tom Simpson who refers to this as a helicopter landing versus an airplane landing.

The slide has the LEAST variation between the two.

I have to agree with this. Sliding into position is a lot more accurate than placing the hand into position for the main reason is that the sliding motion "coerces" the mind into making the minor adjustments as part of the motion -- one fell swoop -- and keeping the structural integrity of the bride intact when it comes to its final position. On the other hand, minor adjustments to placing the hand on the table have to be made *after* the hand is placed on the table, and this teases the mind into doing things like slightly contorting or twisting the bridge that minor amount (thereby possibly compromising the stability of the bridge), instead of the proper motion of picking the bridge hand up and replacing it into the correct position. (In other words, you can read "laziness" here -- we're all guilty of taking shortcuts when we can. But in placing the bridge hand on the table vs. sliding it into position, the shortcuts taken can have a more profound effect on accuracy.)

I do a different method of sliding my bridge hand into position. I don't use pivot-based aiming systems, so my method of sliding the hand into position is to slide it FORWARD, into the line of the shot, rather than from the side. This does two things for me:

1. It helps cement into my mind the line of the shot (the cue ball path to the object ball). That is, not only does my stance completely conform to the line of the shot (i.e. the snooker stance), but my motions into the shot do as well -- stepping into the shot, and sliding FORWARD into it. It really is "committing" to the line of the shot.

2. Sliding the bridge hand forward helps to "taughten" (if that's a word?) the skin of my bridge hand where it touches the table. I.e. the heel of my hand and the fingertip pads of my middle/ring/pinkie where they touch the table. By sliding those contact points forward, it pulls the skin back until there's no more slack, and enhances stability during the somewhat violent forward motion of cue delivery -- especially if, during the heat of battle (i.e. I'm under a bit of duress during a match in a tourney or whatever) where my hands are sweating a bit and there's a bit of drag in the bridge hand. Keeping the skin of those table-contact points taught really helps.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

 

[Murdoch7627]

Good point. I had not read the first post in a long time. You are right ... it does seem like Stan is willing to answer questions only by phone. And it is my impression that people who get answers are vowed to secrecy (i.e., they are not allowed to share what they know with anybody else). I hope Stan will reconsider, because AZB is a place to share ideas and information and learn from each other, IMO. That's why I'm here ... to both share and learn.

The original post also states: Stan absolutely wants his students to understand and be satisfied with his pool instruction
I assume this also applies to the DVD.

I still hope he and others will still consider clearing up some of the questions that have been brought up in the thread.

Regards,
Dave

And what pray tell makes you have the impression that people who get answers are vowed to secrecy. That's just plain crap. It's comments like that one that make me wonder about your real intentions. That is nothing but a pure and simple negative statement about Stan that is totally uncalled for and totally untrue.

 

[justadub]

Good point. I had not read the first post in a long time. You are right ... it does seem like Stan is willing to answer questions only by phone. And it is my impression that people who get answers are vowed to secrecy (i.e., they are not allowed to share what they know with anybody else). I hope Stan will reconsider, because AZB is a place to share ideas and information and learn from each other, IMO. That's why I'm here ... to both share and learn.

The original post also states: Stan absolutely wants his students to understand and be satisfied with his pool instruction
I assume this also applies to the DVD.

I still hope he and others will still consider clearing up some of the questions that have been brought up in the thread.

Regards,
Dave

Again, I have no dog in this fight. But I REALLY think Dr.Dave should be talking to Stan, one on one, to clear up some of the missing infomation. Or what is missing to Dr.Dave...

The written word can be more detailed and clearer, but it can also be misleading, both in tone and/or content.

Dr.Dave, you are considered an authority here (and elsewhere). Do us all a favor, and call Stan. Perhaps it won't change your perception of this system. But the call might lead you to a place where you can better describe what you see in how this is supposed to work.

And it might clear up a bunch of the typical forum foolishness.

 

[champ2107]

I agree that this is excellent advice. However, your body alignment, vision center position, and line-of-slide focus are all important during this process.

Where is your vision center, and what line (the CTEL or SL or something else) do you focus on during the "slide?"

Thanks,
Dave

you can make a shot using ctel and a pivot without using the aim line. Now use the aim line and a pivot without using the ctel, your now lost.

During the side you should be on/half tip offset/parallel << im not sure what write here) ctel, the inexperienced should keep an eye on this and make sure hes siding in on the ctel. The experienced cte user knows hes sliding in on this line and does not have to focus on it, this is my opinion.

Dr dave are you pocketing balls the way it is taught on the dvd? im just trying to see where your at.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I think this is getting lost with all the back-and-forths:

CTE/Pro1 is an aiming system. "System," meaning, a procedure to follow in order to pocket balls.

As a player, this system becomes subconscious as you're actually playing. Although I disagree with 99% of Lou's review--- he's right about the preshot routine comment. This aiming system morphs into a PSR system with a built in aiming solution.

By Dr. Dave saying ___ bridge whatever has variation and needs adjustment, ____ eye whatever has variation and needs adjustment.... does not add value to the discussion. If you want to get TECHNICAL--- you can keep reducing the tolerance of the technique to make it inexact. For example, I can argue no one has EVER hit center ball in the history of pool (down to the exact atom). Therefore, trying to hit center ball is a BAD POOL TECHNIQUE!

For Dr. Dave to say "Well... the 'slide' needs to be adjusted so this isn't exact..." Guess what ladies---- if you shoot the same shot 100x---- you WILL shoot that shot differently 100x NO MATTER WHAT TECHNIQUE YOU USE! (meaning never EXACTLY the same)

So, the purpose of this and other systems is for you to consciously do the same procedure on every shot and make the ball. Although I believe the math behind CTE is perfect, people are not--- perception is imperfect, so the hand MIGHT have to move a fraction of a hair in whatever direction. that's not a fault of the "system;" rather, it's a fault of human beings.

 

[Falcon Eddie]

The point I was trying to make (in the full context of my post) is that the way you "slide" can change the outcome quite a bit, especially if you aren't willing or able to make slight corrections after the pivot.

What wasn't clear to me after watching the DVD several times is where the vision center should be during the slide. Also, it wasn't totally clear if the slide should be guided more by the sighting line (SL) or the center-to-edge line (CTEL). Stan says you should be able to "see" both lines from the same eye position, but I don't buy this. Stan also seems to demonstrate a slight shift, which I assume is to align the vision center away from the CTEL and along the SL, but I'm not sure.

Obviously, the location of the vision center and the exact direction of the slide are critically important to where the bridge hand will end up.

Thanks for your comments,
Dave

Let me ask this question..When you approach any shot What are you looking at ? One thing ? two ? maybe multiple things? If you are fixed on one spot , does that work ?
The questions you ask are designed to confuse. Is anyone really reading all these supposed examples of perfect pool in this perfect world ?
You say you don't buy into what Stan is saying about being able to "see" both lines..Is your vision so fixed that it doesn't move or shift at all ? I have been reading these things with extreme prejudice . Because , it is so clear as to what is happening . Why does it REALLY matter ? Is your concern so great for the pool playing public that they should be informed on inaccuracy of the material presented by Mr. Shuffet.
I will say this to all concerned , if it works for you use it. If it doesn't what is the point of talking about it.
I believe that there are some who love the sound of their own voice so much they think everyone else should be privy to it.
I wonder now if my comments will truly be appreciated.
Does not matter...I PLAY POOL . If anyone wants to learn to write , apply your seat to the chair..If you want to play pool..Play Pool.

 

[dr_dave]

CTE/Pro1 is an aiming system. "System," meaning, a procedure to follow in order to pocket balls.

As a player, this system becomes subconscious ...

This aiming system morphs into a PSR system ...

So, the purpose of this and other systems is for you to consciously do the same procedure on every shot and make the ball.

I agree that these are most definitely extremely positive attributes of all CTE approaches, especially Pro-One. I think there are also many additional benefits for some people.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

The point I was trying to make (in the full context of my post) is that the way you "slide" can change the outcome quite a bit, especially if you aren't willing or able to make slight corrections after the pivot.

What wasn't clear to me after watching the DVD several times is where the vision center should be during the slide. Also, it wasn't totally clear if the slide should be guided more by the sighting line (SL) or the center-to-edge line (CTEL). Stan says you should be able to "see" both lines from the same eye position, but I don't buy this. Stan also seems to demonstrate a slight shift, which I assume is to align the vision center away from the CTEL and along the SL, but I'm not sure.

Obviously, the location of the vision center and the exact direction of the slide are critically important to where the bridge hand will end up.

Let me ask this question..When you approach any shot What are you looking at?

I don't think this is important to this discussion, but what I do when approaching a shot is described here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html#DAM​

in the paragraph starting with "For seeing ..."

One thing ? two ? maybe multiple things? If you are fixed on one spot , does that work ?

This varies with the type of shot and my mood and/or level of confidence. Sometimes I focus on the desired OB contact point, sometimes I focus of visualizing the amount of ball-overlap I want, sometimes I focus on a point on a rail or cushion, sometimes I focus on a point on the cloth where I imagine the resting point of the ghost ball to be, sometimes I visualize the entire ghost ball and a "tunnel" going from the CB to the desired ghost-ball position, sometimes I visualize the contact points on both the CB and OB. BTW, all of these different approaches are summarized and illustrated here:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/aiming.html​

One thing I do the same each time, regardless of what I am looking at, is make sure my vision center is directly in-line with my desired center-ball cue alignment, so I can make sure the cue is pointed in the direction I want, and to make sure my tip is lined up as "center-ball" as possible (for a center-ball hit).

The questions you ask are designed to confuse.

I disagree. I think where you have your eyes and what you focus on (even if you can still "see" other things while you focus) are critically important ... to me, anyway.

If my ... You say you don't buy into what Stan is saying about being able to "see" both lines..Is your vision so fixed that it doesn't move or shift at all ?

If I want to visualize and focus on the CTEL accurately, my vision center needs to be in one place. And if I need to visualize and focus on the SL accurately, my vision center needs to be in another place. Maybe this is different for different people.

If you want to play pool..Play Pool.

I think this is the best advice in the entire thread.

Regards,
Dave

 

[trob]

Well I've watched the DVD many times and I'm giving up on it...for now lol I just don't get the pro one move. I guess hes just using his eyes but i dont get it. For me personally I just don't like doing the pivot when I'm down on the ball. It just seems unnatural to me. I do think cte works but its just not for me. I would love to get some real lessons to truly understand the non pivot he's making.

I will say i had a rare occasion to play on some 9 footers Friday night. The local club closed i played at so all i see is bar box any more. As usual I felt kind of uncomfortable because of how the angles change. I have the stroke to play on big tables. Ive proven that to myself when I've gone on streaks of playing on them a couple times a week. I decided to change to cte with a manual pivot and did start pocketing a lot of balls and getting out. I think though as for day to day use its just not for me.

Btw before I get flamed Im not one of the jerks on here saying it's junk and everyone who uses it is a douche lol I do think it works...I just don't prefer it at this time. If you like and it works for you that's awesome and I hope it helps you pocket many balls.

 

[Murdoch7627]

And what pray tell makes you have the impression that people who get answers are vowed to secrecy. That's just plain crap. It's comments like that one that make me wonder about your real intentions. That is nothing but a pure and simple negative statement about Stan that is totally uncalled for and totally untrue.

Dr. Dave,

I believe you must have forgotten to respond. I'm waiting for you to tell all of us on AZ (since you think this is where information should be) how you have the impression that people who get answers from Stan over the phone are vowed to secrecy. I know for a fact that your statement is an absolute false statement. So what false information or faulty thought process took you to this impression? Hopefully, you did not knowingly just make it up in order to make Stan look bad. So enlighten us please.

An apology to Stan is certainly in order. Or you can try to make up something else to try to cover up your first false statements. It's up to you. Fess up now or dig the hole deeper.

Ignoring my question will do no good at all as if you don't answer now I'll keep quoting your statement about Stan and asking you how come you made false statements about him until you do answer in this post or any other post in which you show up. It's your call.

 

[MOJOE]

Trob,

You are not alone my friend. I am not giving up on it but have struggled greatly with CTE because the pivot after getting down just gives me fits..

I don't quite understand the no manual pivot with Pro One but I'll continue to try. Definitely not ready to use it in competition.

One gentleman on AZ sent me some simplified stuff that he's doing which has helped some. I'll keep at it, if I figure it out to where I'm comfortable enough to do it during a tournament I'll let you know.

I won't give up but it's difficult for me to grasp as well.

Peace, JoeyK

Well I've watched the DVD many times and I'm giving up on it...for now lol I just don't get the pro one move. I guess hes just using his eyes but i dont get it. For me personally I just don't like doing the pivot when I'm down on the ball. It just seems unnatural to me. I do think cte works but its just not for me. I would love to get some real lessons to truly understand the non pivot he's making.

I will say i had a rare occasion to play on some 9 footers Friday night. The local club closed i played at so all i see is bar box any more. As usual I felt kind of uncomfortable because of how the angles change. I have the stroke to play on big tables. Ive proven that to myself when I've gone on streaks of playing on them a couple times a week. I decided to change to cte with a manual pivot and did start pocketing a lot of balls and getting out. I think though as for day to day use its just not for me.

Btw before I get flamed Im not one of the jerks on here saying it's junk and everyone who uses it is a douche lol I do think it works...I just don't prefer it at this time. If you like and it works for you that's awesome and I hope it helps you pocket many balls.

 

[horton129]

i dont think you do much of the above by the sounds of your posts.

I think when someone can help you see the line, this might be true, but I must be missing something, as I am having some difficulties after multiple attempts.

This may help. When you practice manual part of cte pro one next try to only do simple straight in shots for a few hours like having the cb and ob between the two side pockets. When you land and do your half tip pivot it should be crystal clear to you if you have done so correctly, the dead center of the side pocket should be staring right at you. Once you can do this without fail all the other shots will fall into place.

 

[champ2107]

This may help. When you practice manual part of cte pro one next try to only do simple straight in shots for a few hours like having the cb and ob between the two side pockets. When you land and do your half tip pivot it should be crystal clear to you if you have done so correctly, the dead center of the side pocket should be staring right at you. Once you can do this without fail all the other shots will fall into place.

ahhh cool, an oakville guy! Nick b is coming to Burlington in a couple weeks, he may issue a challenge if notices you use cte/pro1 :grin:

 

[shankster8]

Dr. Dave,

I believe you must have forgotten to respond. I'm waiting for you to tell all of us on AZ (since you think this is where information should be) how you have the impression that people who get answers from Stan over the phone are vowed to secrecy. I know for a fact that your statement is an absolute false statement. So what false information or faulty thought process took you to this impression? Hopefully, you did not knowingly just make it up in order to make Stan look bad. So enlighten us please.

An apology to Stan is certainly in order. Or you can try to make up something else to try to cover up your first false statements. It's up to you. Fess up now or dig the hole deeper.

Ignoring my question will do no good at all as if you don't answer now I'll keep quoting your statement about Stan and asking you how come you made false statements about him until you do answer in this post or any other post in which you show up. It's your call.

Murdink there's another aiming guru on these boards who also encourages questions via phone - that way he can never be pinned down. He is also a pro at talking in circles, and saying what you want to hear, so it works in his great favor.. I don't believe Stan is like that, but I do believe that Stan wishes to discuss things by phone to maintain a veil of secrecy as best he can. For your info, the CTE group has always felt compelled to never divulge the esoteric teachings of their masters. And how much more now that Stan has a financial interest involved?. Look at the furor that erupted when Dr. Dave provided a key to help dicipher Stan's mysterious work. Spider went nuts. Started yelling STFU to Dr. Dave, and then accused Dave of erasing things from his website, and then replacing them - none of which happened.

Hope Spider recovers, cause he might discover that Dr. Dave's summary is the best information yet on ProOne/CTE. Since the CTE choir is accusing Dr. Dave of posting Stan's entire method on his website, and it is only a small table and a few lines of narrative, it is surprising that information wasn't made a part of the DVD. I hope Dr. Dave allows the CTEr's to use his table and narrative without ridicule.

Well, anyway, thanks to Dr. Dave a large part of CTE/ProOne has apparently been de-mystified. Now if Dr. Dave can just figure out a few more details regarding eye position etc, ProOne/CTE might yet become a usable tool for many of its purchasers. It is a heated battle, though, with the CTEr's tight-lipped and poised for fierce resistance. What???? PJ is back????? Oh Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

"Naysayers" gotta acknowledge that JoeyA is achieving higher tournament results shortly after receiving CTE/ProOne training. Coincidence?????????

 

[mantis99]

This may help. When you practice manual part of cte pro one next try to only do simple straight in shots for a few hours like having the cb and ob between the two side pockets. When you land and do your half tip pivot it should be crystal clear to you if you have done so correctly, the dead center of the side pocket should be staring right at you. Once you can do this without fail all the other shots will fall into place.

This seems like the best way to tell if you are sighting it correctly. Unfortunately for me, when I get down on this shot, I am always short of being straight in.

I would love to see a you tube video with the camera angle showing what the shooter sees and is sighting. Use your cue to show the lines, and what you are looking at when your sighting and moving into the shot. This is the main thing I think is missing from the DVD.

I usually catch on to this type of thing quickly, but have had a ton of trouble with this part of it, but I really want to make the system work.

 

[champ2107]

This seems like the best way to tell if you are sighting it correctly. Unfortunately for me, when I get down on this shot, I am always short of being straight in.

I would love to see a you tube video with the camera angle showing what the shooter sees and is sighting. Use your cue to show the lines, and what you are looking at when your sighting and moving into the shot. This is the main thing I think is missing from the DVD.

I usually catch on to this type of thing quickly, but have had a ton of trouble with this part of it, but I really want to make the system work.

pm what you would like to see and i will do it for you tomorrow nite.

 

[Nick B]

I'll take on all CTE believers in the GTA. Anyone who can make it work and show articulate the steps I'm game for. Proven wrong I will come here and eat it.
horton129, your welcome to try as well.

Nick

ahhh cool, an oakville guy! Nick b is coming to Burlington in a couple weeks, he may issue a challenge if notices you use cte/pro1 :grin:

 

[Mikjary]

This seems like the best way to tell if you are sighting it correctly. Unfortunately for me, when I get down on this shot, I am always short of being straight in.

I would love to see a you tube video with the camera angle showing what the shooter sees and is sighting. Use your cue to show the lines, and what you are looking at when your sighting and moving into the shot. This is the main thing I think is missing from the DVD.

I usually catch on to this type of thing quickly, but have had a ton of trouble with this part of it, but I really want to make the system work.

Written word is all I can offer as to what the shooter is seeing. I am standing at a slight angle to the shot with my bridge hand side forward. I use both eyes to position myself starting with the Cte line. If the Cte line is at the left side of the cue ball, I let my left eye do most of the work to line up with the object ball.

My right eye will do most of the work as I sight the other edge of the cue ball to the reference points. If it is a thick cut, I know to use A or C. If it is a thinner cut, I use B. At this point I will choose a pivot direction. In the standing position, before I move my cue to any position other than just simply holding it at a ready position, I move straight into the cue ball. I am looking at the Cte line and the reference point as it lines up on the cue ball.

As I lower my eyes, I glance down and orient the cue to the cue ball with the 1/2 tip offset I previously decided to use. As I slide straight into the cue ball (1/2 tip offset), I glance back up to make sure my visuals are still at the Cte line and the same reference point. If there is any change at all, I will stand back up and reset my visuals to the original position.

If the visuals are still intact as I slide up to the cue ball I will glance back to the cue ball and pivot. I'll practice stroke my aiming point and then glance up to look at the object ball. The computer in my pool mind will red flag the shot if my alignment, reference point or pivot is wrong. If all is well, I will continue to briefly look at the object ball and stroke the shot. Don't aim the shot. Instead, concentrate on your stroke and trust your alignment to pocket the ball.

If you are dogging it, it is your visuals. Not to be mean, but you don't see any blind people playing pool for obvious reasons. You are, in essence, not "seeing" the shot as well. You must examine your visuals and make the necessary corrections. All pool players line up where their eyes tell them to without exception. Your body is along for the ride. Check your basic visuals.

Best,
Mike

 

[Murdoch7627]

Oh my God, was Dr. Dave in a car accident? Was he hit by a bus? What happened to poor Dr. Dave that crushed his fingers so that he cannot answer for himself?

Dr. Dave clearly stated that he was under the impression that Stan had made those who called him make a vow of secrecy. This accusation is either right or wrong. All the crap you just said means nothing. And, by the way, what you said was crap. Your argument was that others had done it so Stan must have done it too. That's really a strong argument, if and only if, you were in the McCarthy era. In case you don't know that is called guilt by association. Really a very stupid argument and one that surely Dr. Dave with all of his knowledge would never use.

Now, if Dr. Dave has any foundation for his "impression" then I am sure he will be more than happy to give us this information as he is a strong believer that information should be put on AZ. If, on the other hand, Dr. Dave just made this "impression" up to put Stan down then it is a serious derogatory remark about Stan and needs to be addressed. If Dr. Dave is so intent on proving the CTE/Pro One is not a good aiming system that he would deliberately make false negative statements about its author then certainly he is so biased that anything and everything he says on the topic must be questioned as to it reliability.

While I know you and others would love to jump to Dr. Dave's defense and try to muddy the waters it is only Dr. Dave who can answer the question as he is the only one who knows about his "impression".

So, Dr. Dave, we await your response unless, of course, you and others think that it is OK to make unfounded derogatory remarks about someone as long as it serves the greater purpose of proving your side is "right". Your silence will indicate to me that you are indeed using the Machiavellian Theory that the end justifies the means.

 

[cookie man]

Oh my God, was Dr. Dave in a car accident? Was he hit by a bus? What happened to poor Dr. Dave that crushed his fingers so that he cannot answer for himself?

Dr. Dave clearly stated that he was under the impression that Stan had made those who called him make a vow of secrecy. This accusation is either right or wrong. All the crap you just said means nothing. And, by the way, what you said was crap. Your argument was that others had done it so Stan must have done it too. That's really a strong argument, if and only if, you were in the McCarthy era. In case you don't know that is called guilt by association. Really a very stupid argument and one that surely Dr. Dave with all of his knowledge would never use.

Now, if Dr. Dave has any foundation for his "impression" then I am sure he will be more than happy to give us this information as he is a strong believer that information should be put on AZ. If, on the other hand, Dr. Dave just made this "impression" up to put Stan down then it is a serious derogatory remark about Stan and needs to be addressed. If Dr. Dave is so intent on proving the CTE/Pro One is not a good aiming system that he would deliberately make false negative statements about its author then certainly he is so biased then anything and everything he says on the topic must be questioned as to it reliability.

While I know you and others would love to jump to Dr. Dave's defense and try to muddy the waters it is only Dr. Dave who can answer the question as he is the only one who knows about his "impression".

So, Dr. Dave, we await your response unless, of course, you and others think that it is OK to make unfounded derogatory remarks about someone as long as it serves the greater purpose of proving your side is "right". Your silence will indicate to me that you are indeed using the Machiavellian Theory that the end justifies the means.

I got 5 dollars says he won't give a straight answer.