APA Needs to re-examine the handicap system!
- Thread starter Brozif
- Start date
Not sure how messed up the APA ranking system is, but for the short time I played APA, I was an SL7, and quite honestly the best SL7 in my local league. I won the 6-7 bracket at the regional qualifier, but never sniffed Vegas because the LO tossed me out of the league before the next round tournament came around. Would I be an SL7 on the national level, I don't think so. Based on ranking systems I've seen on this site, I would consider myself a strong B+ player, but not quite A. I was even told that I wouldn't even be a 7 in TAP (more like a strong 6 in that league).
In all honesty, though, I saw some pretty weak 7s at that regional I played in. Either that, or they were barbox 7s, but were lost on 9-footers.
Just my 2 cents on APA SL7s.
Besides don't SL2s string racks at Nationals?
In all honesty, though, I saw some pretty weak 7s at that regional I played in. Either that, or they were barbox 7s, but were lost on 9-footers.
Just my 2 cents on APA SL7s.
Besides don't SL2s string racks at Nationals?
it is the one glaring weakness of apa where there is such a huge skill difference at the top skill rating. In nineball I was in vegas in august and drew Sal Butera first round in a mini mania event. He is a top regional player in LA and the guy runs the fek out. Like really really runs out on the small track. I thought to myself....hmmm i think this guy could give me the 7 on the barbox.
Then at regionals in Oct I saw a number of 9s that I thought ...hmm i think i could give that guy the 7ball...
When you have a situation where there is possibly a 6 ball spread between players who are all ranked the same...well thats a big problem. Sal Butera type guys could give others the last 5 or 6 and get there for the cash.
Then at regionals in Oct I saw a number of 9s that I thought ...hmm i think i could give that guy the 7ball...
When you have a situation where there is possibly a 6 ball spread between players who are all ranked the same...well thats a big problem. Sal Butera type guys could give others the last 5 or 6 and get there for the cash.
This is one of the most important things about scoring, and something I stress to all of my teammates to watch out for when it's their turn to score. Everybody would like to keep their skill handicap at a minimum unless your goal is to be a 9, so there's a lot of sandbagging going on. Most don't do it all the time, so you really have to watch each shot and make rational judgments based on the situation.
It also makes you pay closer attention to the game and I find that I see a situation in my match that I noticed while scoring and use that information to my advantage. It's a win-win.
Let's hear the suggestions for improvement
Anytime there is a system in place to compute a skill level / handicap – be it pool, bowling, golf etc. there are going to be variables that just cannot be accounted for.
The APA has a system that works well. While no system is or can be 100% perfect, at least the APA has one and tries to improve it as they have done over the years. And it does work well.
If people state that the APA needs to change it, then let’s hear some constructive ways in which to improve it as I'm sure the APA reads these threads? Without hearing suggestions no organization can improve.
As far as no male S/L 2’s at nationals – that’s because years ago most male 2’s would play like 3’s at nationals so the APA just started playing them as 3’s at nationals. Generally, not always, most people play better at nationals than at the local level. Mostly the local level is for fun – a night out from work, home, etc. But when at nationals there’s something to focus on. So starting them as a 3 helps make things more fair. Again this was based upon the findings of these players at nationals over the years.
When it comes to 7’s in 8-ball there will always be a big difference. The APA had to place a highest skill level and that’s the 7. But we all know a 7 can be a 7, but could also be a 20 (if there were such a skill level). But they had to put a max; so this is what we’ll see and continue to see.
I’ve played a variety of leagues over the years and like the APA better because they bring in more people of a variety of skill levels; which over time offers more competition. Additionally, I like the fact that they have a computer system in place. And that does provide for more consistency (while not 100% if players allow inaccuracies in score keeping) than the other leagues that do not.
Again, no system is or will be perfect – just too many variables. But without positive suggestions, nothing will ever get better.
Anytime there is a system in place to compute a skill level / handicap – be it pool, bowling, golf etc. there are going to be variables that just cannot be accounted for.
The APA has a system that works well. While no system is or can be 100% perfect, at least the APA has one and tries to improve it as they have done over the years. And it does work well.
If people state that the APA needs to change it, then let’s hear some constructive ways in which to improve it as I'm sure the APA reads these threads? Without hearing suggestions no organization can improve.
As far as no male S/L 2’s at nationals – that’s because years ago most male 2’s would play like 3’s at nationals so the APA just started playing them as 3’s at nationals. Generally, not always, most people play better at nationals than at the local level. Mostly the local level is for fun – a night out from work, home, etc. But when at nationals there’s something to focus on. So starting them as a 3 helps make things more fair. Again this was based upon the findings of these players at nationals over the years.
When it comes to 7’s in 8-ball there will always be a big difference. The APA had to place a highest skill level and that’s the 7. But we all know a 7 can be a 7, but could also be a 20 (if there were such a skill level). But they had to put a max; so this is what we’ll see and continue to see.
I’ve played a variety of leagues over the years and like the APA better because they bring in more people of a variety of skill levels; which over time offers more competition. Additionally, I like the fact that they have a computer system in place. And that does provide for more consistency (while not 100% if players allow inaccuracies in score keeping) than the other leagues that do not.
Again, no system is or will be perfect – just too many variables. But without positive suggestions, nothing will ever get better.
When you sit there, pen in hand, and have to make judgments on players because they don't have enough integrity to call their own safeties, it sort of takes the fun out of being there. Obviously, this is the main facet of the APA Equalizer system that can NEVER be fixed. There will always be cheaters. I have come to the table at the end of the night to sign-off on the scoresheets and seen where the other teams scorekeepers have maybe marked three or four total safeties where I had about 20-25 marked. I can't count the number of times this has happened. So, when two teams play each other that neither one of them mark safeties, well..........
Maniac
Maniac
"Off with the head of my LO for starters !!! BY - Maniac "
While that is kind of funny it's not really what I was asking for here.
"Off with the head of my LO for starters !!! BY - Maniac "
While that is kind of funny it's not really what I was asking for here.
There are a couple of reasons. First the same rule that prevents 7-6-6-2-2 in 9-Ball also prevents 8-7-6-1-1, 8-6-6-2-1, 9-6-6-1-1, 7-7-7-1-1, 7-7-6-2-1, 7-6-6-3-1, and 6-6-6-4-1, seven combinations that are not possible in 8-Ball. All of these combinations are pretty strong, and three of them (the ones with two 1's) are potentially lethal. In 8-Ball, there are only three legal combinations with three senior skill levels, and only one of the three has a 7.
Second, as a group, 2's in 9-Ball are a little stronger than 2's in 8-Ball. In my area, 8-Ball 2's are the bottom 17% of the player pool. In 9-Ball, 2's also make up 17% of the pool, but it's not the bottom 17% (the bottom 6% are 1's). One might suggest the opposite is also true at the other end - the best 7's in 8-Ball would be 8's and 9's in 9-Ball, weakening the 7's in 9-Ball and making it a wash. While it's true that the 7's as a group are weaker in 9-Ball, 8's and 9's make up only 3% of the pool versus 6% for 1's. So even though it's the same combination, 7-6-6-2-2 is slightly stronger in 9-Ball.
"... I have come to the table at the end of the night to sign-off on the scoresheets and seen where the other teams scorekeepers have maybe marked three or four total safeties where I had about 20-25 marked. I can't count the number of times this has happened. So, when two teams play each other that neither one of them mark safeties, well.........."
Yes, and we APA LOs can see this too. One week doesn't prove anything but when teams insist on this pattern week after week the APA LO can, in fairness to the honest players, adjust the SLs of those players/teams who try to hide their true skill by such "creative" score keeping. This is to the benefit of the honest players as it is what we LOs are paid to do.
Several times a week (for years now, it seems) some one will get on one of these threads and shout to the world how "that damn LO raised my SL for no reason at all, etc". Well, there is a reason and you know it. Try keeping score accurately and playing to win every game like you're supposed to. Your SL is a representation of your pool playing skill in relation to the other players in your area. The SL 6s, as a group, are better than the SL 5s; the SL 5s are better than the sl 4s, etc. The best half of your most recent nights are averaged together with an allowance made for your overall W-L record. The numbers are crunched by the software, reviewed each week by the LO and POOF - there's your SL. That's the short version of how it works.
To you honest APA players - THANK YOU for your participation. We LOs value your trust in us to do battle with the cheaters of the world. We strive to give you your monies worth of value for your recreational money and time you invest in your APA play.
To you APA sandbaggers - I can't catch everyone one of you on every night but eventually you always make it obvious what your real SL is. Those players on the other team just love to write up details for my files about you. When I get enough feedback, from different sources, and have reviewed your score keeping pattern - do you really think you are going to be getting much benefit of the doubt?
For many of us the APA is our only job and our only source of income. Do you really think we are going to screw it up just to make your life miserable for no reason at all? If you try to cheat my honest players I will eventually catch you and deal with you as I think fair.
Many of the contributors to these threads are VERY accomplished players and really take the game very seriously. I respect that. Many of you regular posters must realize how the APA is structured and what our league has to offer to players of your caliber. Many of you higher skilled players would be much happier playing BCA or some other system anyway. The APA is not after you as a paying player, though you are welcome as long as you abide by APA rules. The APA is designed to appeal to the lower skill players (typically SL 2,3,4 and some 5 and 6s) and protects those players by the 23 rule and enforcement of the sandbagging protection rules. It is not rocket science and it has never been a secret. It's in our rules for all to read.
The 23 RULE does not force teams to break up. When you have 5 to 8 individual players organize into an APA team you know exactly what kind of team mates you are joining. If your SLs finally get to a level which gives you issues with meeting the 23 rule requirement - you knew this was going to happen before the LO did. Seldom does a team sign up a total stranger with no idea what his SL will be (at least approximately) by play off time. No LO can force a player onto your roster that you do not want. If you find "damn, we can't meet the 23 rule anymore" it usually means you just can't play your favorite combination of players any more. You have to choose a new lineup to fit into that weekly zig saw puzzle of the 23 rule. If the APA system gets your individual players up to where your submitted score sheets show they should be - it's not the fault of the APA. It's your players being rated honestly accordingly to the APA system and review by the LO. Your weekly opponents have to deal with the same issue each week.
To those that wish to post here all kinds of annoyomous horror stories with no names, places, or details which would allow verification - don't you realize how obvious you are being to the rest of us? Whatever! I love you anyway.
FULL DISCLOSURE - I have been the APA LO in Jackson County Mo (much of greater Kansas City) since 1980. My name is Tom Campbell. My email is TC99999999@aol.com. My players weekly match fee is $6. Last year I paid back over $32,000, more than any other billiard league in the greater KC area. And YES I do this for a living and I do make a profit, which is what I live on. My location owners do not give away beer or food for free - you pay for it. You have to put quarters into their table to play. If you want your own cue you have to buy it.
Few things in the world are free. Except the opportunity to get up here and proclaim to the world how "that damn LO raised my SL for absolutely no reason at all". Somewhere there is another sandbagger, who also isn't getting away with it anymore, willing to offer you his sympathy.
Yes, and we APA LOs can see this too. One week doesn't prove anything but when teams insist on this pattern week after week the APA LO can, in fairness to the honest players, adjust the SLs of those players/teams who try to hide their true skill by such "creative" score keeping. This is to the benefit of the honest players as it is what we LOs are paid to do.
Several times a week (for years now, it seems) some one will get on one of these threads and shout to the world how "that damn LO raised my SL for no reason at all, etc". Well, there is a reason and you know it. Try keeping score accurately and playing to win every game like you're supposed to. Your SL is a representation of your pool playing skill in relation to the other players in your area. The SL 6s, as a group, are better than the SL 5s; the SL 5s are better than the sl 4s, etc. The best half of your most recent nights are averaged together with an allowance made for your overall W-L record. The numbers are crunched by the software, reviewed each week by the LO and POOF - there's your SL. That's the short version of how it works.
To you honest APA players - THANK YOU for your participation. We LOs value your trust in us to do battle with the cheaters of the world. We strive to give you your monies worth of value for your recreational money and time you invest in your APA play.
To you APA sandbaggers - I can't catch everyone one of you on every night but eventually you always make it obvious what your real SL is. Those players on the other team just love to write up details for my files about you. When I get enough feedback, from different sources, and have reviewed your score keeping pattern - do you really think you are going to be getting much benefit of the doubt?
For many of us the APA is our only job and our only source of income. Do you really think we are going to screw it up just to make your life miserable for no reason at all? If you try to cheat my honest players I will eventually catch you and deal with you as I think fair.
Many of the contributors to these threads are VERY accomplished players and really take the game very seriously. I respect that. Many of you regular posters must realize how the APA is structured and what our league has to offer to players of your caliber. Many of you higher skilled players would be much happier playing BCA or some other system anyway. The APA is not after you as a paying player, though you are welcome as long as you abide by APA rules. The APA is designed to appeal to the lower skill players (typically SL 2,3,4 and some 5 and 6s) and protects those players by the 23 rule and enforcement of the sandbagging protection rules. It is not rocket science and it has never been a secret. It's in our rules for all to read.
The 23 RULE does not force teams to break up. When you have 5 to 8 individual players organize into an APA team you know exactly what kind of team mates you are joining. If your SLs finally get to a level which gives you issues with meeting the 23 rule requirement - you knew this was going to happen before the LO did. Seldom does a team sign up a total stranger with no idea what his SL will be (at least approximately) by play off time. No LO can force a player onto your roster that you do not want. If you find "damn, we can't meet the 23 rule anymore" it usually means you just can't play your favorite combination of players any more. You have to choose a new lineup to fit into that weekly zig saw puzzle of the 23 rule. If the APA system gets your individual players up to where your submitted score sheets show they should be - it's not the fault of the APA. It's your players being rated honestly accordingly to the APA system and review by the LO. Your weekly opponents have to deal with the same issue each week.
To those that wish to post here all kinds of annoyomous horror stories with no names, places, or details which would allow verification - don't you realize how obvious you are being to the rest of us? Whatever! I love you anyway.
FULL DISCLOSURE - I have been the APA LO in Jackson County Mo (much of greater Kansas City) since 1980. My name is Tom Campbell. My email is TC99999999@aol.com. My players weekly match fee is $6. Last year I paid back over $32,000, more than any other billiard league in the greater KC area. And YES I do this for a living and I do make a profit, which is what I live on. My location owners do not give away beer or food for free - you pay for it. You have to put quarters into their table to play. If you want your own cue you have to buy it.
Few things in the world are free. Except the opportunity to get up here and proclaim to the world how "that damn LO raised my SL for absolutely no reason at all". Somewhere there is another sandbagger, who also isn't getting away with it anymore, willing to offer you his sympathy.
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APA handicap system ?
I have played APA for 7 years, both 8 & 9 ball leagues. There ARE superior players in both 8 & 9 ball leagues in APA including some players that are Pro caliber. If your team match stays under the 23 rule, they play, you lose! The consequent result of the 23 rule is to force teams to keep adding low rank players and keep growing the APA which makes $$$ for them.
The APA has a MASTERS league, a no handicap combination of 8 ball and 9 ball games, race to 7. Some of those Super players that don't want to kill a low rank , do play in the MASTERS league.
I have played APA for 7 years, both 8 & 9 ball leagues. There ARE superior players in both 8 & 9 ball leagues in APA including some players that are Pro caliber. If your team match stays under the 23 rule, they play, you lose! The consequent result of the 23 rule is to force teams to keep adding low rank players and keep growing the APA which makes $$$ for them.
The APA has a MASTERS league, a no handicap combination of 8 ball and 9 ball games, race to 7. Some of those Super players that don't want to kill a low rank , do play in the MASTERS league.
So essentially what your saying is that the rule is to keep a team/teams from being stronger? Since when has THAT been wrong? As long as the 23-rule applies to their team, it should be able to get as strong as possible while staying within the limit. Besides, it's only three players, and every team in the league would have the same opportunity to strengthen their team too.
I don't really care as the rule has never affected one of my teams, nor will it ever. I was just curious as to why they have a 23-rule AND a senior skill level rule in the same league.
Your answer is proof positive that the league is geared for beginners and intermediate players. Not a bad thing, just proof.
Enjoy the day!!!
Maniac
IMO, anyone reaching SL7 in 8-ball or SL8 & SL9 in 9-ball should be required to drop out of regular league the next session and play in the Masters league. If the APA is geared for beginners and intermediate players, wouldn't this be a better solution for all involved???
Maniac
Full disclosure: My name is Tony Metz. I have played in the APA since 2006. I am currently the Captain of our 9-ball team and alternate sessions with another man being Captain of our 8-ball team. I live in the Arlington area in Texas and play in the South Arlington APA divisions. Our league operator is named Steve. He runs a shoddy league to say the least. Not just my opinion but the opinion of many, many others. The only people that say anything good about him is the players/bars that he is biased towards. If there was a decent alternative in the Arlington area (and I mean close proximity to the city), Steve would lose a LOT of players to it. I'm not going to take the time to type all the atrocities he has done over the years I have been in the APA. It would be a lo-o-o-o-ng post. Trust me, I could have written a manual for how NOT to be a LO! Suffice to say that imo (and plenty of others) he is not a good LO. I would say that just the opposite is true in his case.
My wife and I have decided to make this session our last in the South Arlington APA until a new LO takes over (if ever). I am not whining nor crying. Just fed up. You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em. I'm folding 'em.
If you have a LO that is fair, honest and well-liked, then I am envious. Obviously, it's just not the same from area to area. I've had some fun, but had more than my share of frustration and disbelief.
I do not know if I have legally done any harm to my LO on this post, so I ask that you please not quote the part with his name in it just in case I should have to go back and delete it. Thanks.
Tony "Maniac" Metz
As stated in another thread - the league I play in (an 8 ball league) is full of "former" APA 8 ball 7's. Some are 4s in my league though not many. MOST are 5s, and then there are 6's, 7's, and 2 8's...yes, 2 8s....that were 7s in APA. They spot some other former APA 7's 4 games on the wire!!! There is no reducing in our league, so a race of 8 to 4 between two guys that were rated the exact same in another league....and the 8's still usually win! This is, for the most part, why our league is played in....a little more fair.
They can keep the 23 limit....no problem. Just don't rate C players at the highest rating. Especially if A players are playing at that rating. I understand that they want to GROW more teams, but moving a member up to the highest skill level when there is no way they can truly compete EVEN against other highest skill levels is just NUTS. They'll end up running off quite a few of the higher skilled players to other leagues (like mine), when really those few folks are the ones you want to keep....to recruit and teach the beginner and lower skilled players.
Have no idea about the APA 9 ball things, since I only played 8 ball, and only for 2 sessions, but if the ratings go up to 9 instead of 7, I could see how it'd be more fair....though I can't imagine still having the 23 cap with 7s, 8s, and 9s. Why would someone who is a 9, and I assume a VERY good player want to play on a team with VERY LOW skilled players only. That'd suck in my opinion. If you do a have buddy who is also pretty skilled, say an 8, in all likelyhood you are not both playing on the same night, unless you can find some 1s and 2s who can't even make a couple of balls in a row....doesn't sound like fun to me.
They can keep the 23 limit....no problem. Just don't rate C players at the highest rating. Especially if A players are playing at that rating. I understand that they want to GROW more teams, but moving a member up to the highest skill level when there is no way they can truly compete EVEN against other highest skill levels is just NUTS. They'll end up running off quite a few of the higher skilled players to other leagues (like mine), when really those few folks are the ones you want to keep....to recruit and teach the beginner and lower skilled players.
Have no idea about the APA 9 ball things, since I only played 8 ball, and only for 2 sessions, but if the ratings go up to 9 instead of 7, I could see how it'd be more fair....though I can't imagine still having the 23 cap with 7s, 8s, and 9s. Why would someone who is a 9, and I assume a VERY good player want to play on a team with VERY LOW skilled players only. That'd suck in my opinion. If you do a have buddy who is also pretty skilled, say an 8, in all likelyhood you are not both playing on the same night, unless you can find some 1s and 2s who can't even make a couple of balls in a row....doesn't sound like fun to me.
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I don't think actively punishing someone for playing well is a good idea. Afterall, isn't the purpose of the league is to get more people involved and get improve? There has to be a way up, otherwise we're going to be back in the same situation (big fish in a small pond, with no room for the guppies to grow).
I don't know what the APA has tried in the past. Make the masters payout more attractive, so there is no financial incentive to stay in the 8-ball league.
I don't know what the APA has tried in the past. Make the masters payout more attractive, so there is no financial incentive to stay in the 8-ball league.
Banks
Banned
It's a 5-5 race.. a 7 should be able to run out a rack or finish with a safety if they are playing their game. That's not much to ask in a 5-5 race. Heck, I had multiple BNRs/TRs in some matches when I was a 6, which would only need 4 against a 7's 5 games.
I enjoy being on a team with players that are having fun and I also enjoy watching them(and helping them) get better. Sure, it sucks when you no longer get to play regularly, but that means I've done a good job in helping somebody do something better. The look on a 1, 2 or 3's face when they execute a multi-rail kick shot with your help is priceless.. as opposed to the high-rated player that thinks he's the @#%^ and blows off your advice.
Mr. Campbell, thank you for your hard work and your input.
depends on the area I guess - I know 5s and 6s that gamble even against 7s....so skills vs. handicaps vary WIDELY here. lol Some 7s might truly be weak 6s and I know 5s that can beat up on those 7s even (here's the important part - WHEN NEED BE, and getting the spot makes it that much easier).
another thing about our 8ball league, you don't have to SIT, you still have fun (and can coach the 2 or 3 on your team - usually a female that'd be equivalent to a 4 in APA), and the two 8s in the league can't make you rack boy and run out 8 - not because they aren't capable, but because it's loser breaks.....lots of hill/hill matches. The APA is the APA, no reason for me to bash it - it is what it is. But one of the biggest things I didn't like about it was breaking up teams as people improved. When all the 3s and 4s become 5s and 6s - time to recruit, again not a bad thing for the sport, but not cool if you were playing with a bunch of buddies.
I play in all three formats in the APA in our area. I'm a 7 in 8ball and a 9 in 9ball. I do the standard league just to hang with my friends that I have played with for years and it's a fun night out. I will say that with me being a "9" that I usually just get my six matches in because it's almost impossible for 9's to play with the 23 rule. I have no problem with that so I play in the masters division. That is pretty much my only option if I want to play APA league on a weekly basis.
I joined the masters division to play with the better competition and no handicap,etc. My problem is that a lot of the masters teams are full of 5's and 6's and it takes away from what the masters division was designed for. That is my opinion... It seems that the LO's and the division rep's are just looking to make as many teams as possible. It takes away from what masters is all about.(as a matter of fact,now they have a junior masters...will it ever stop...lol) and before anyone says it...I know they are in it to make money and build as many teams as they can. I just wish the masters division had a rule that you had to be a sl 7.
I know in our area that our fees went up to $8 for league and $10 for masters and it looks like some of the payouts have gone down for the Vegas trips(I was told this from teams that are going) I'm curious as to the other areas ?
I just want to say....I enjoy the nights out with friends at league and it shouldn't be about $ but unfortunately it is sometimes. It's getting pretty expensive to do anymore..
I joined the masters division to play with the better competition and no handicap,etc. My problem is that a lot of the masters teams are full of 5's and 6's and it takes away from what the masters division was designed for. That is my opinion... It seems that the LO's and the division rep's are just looking to make as many teams as possible. It takes away from what masters is all about.(as a matter of fact,now they have a junior masters...will it ever stop...lol) and before anyone says it...I know they are in it to make money and build as many teams as they can. I just wish the masters division had a rule that you had to be a sl 7.
I know in our area that our fees went up to $8 for league and $10 for masters and it looks like some of the payouts have gone down for the Vegas trips(I was told this from teams that are going) I'm curious as to the other areas ?
I just want to say....I enjoy the nights out with friends at league and it shouldn't be about $ but unfortunately it is sometimes. It's getting pretty expensive to do anymore..