Doing the Impossible: I'm Asking for Help!

I

Ironwill

Registered
Ok....hold on lemme take a drink (been one of those nights)...... ok.

Background:

Shot pool for about 12 years and I love the game...I see a pool table and I just have to shoot on it :eek: I lived in a hot humid enviroment and pool shooting became so uncomfortable (sweat dripping off my eyebrows and nose) that I couldn't enjoy the game anymore. Any how that was over 6 years ago.


PRESENT:

Recently (about 2 months) I picked my cue back up since I moved to VA(lil cooler) and have been practicing my butt off. I was picking everything back up very well until about 3 weeks ago. I had a 1/4" thick hard block tip all those years when I shot and starting back was using it... then I decided since it was so thin and and felt reallly hard whenshooting that I would get a Moori med. put on it. I got the cue back about 4 days ago and pool has been nothing but an embarrassment. :frown: I've been beaten out of tournaments for 3 weeks (local bar and pool hall $5.00 entries) now... ones that I either won or got 2nd in before. I do know that for those 3 weeks I didnt have my stick so I was shooting with house cue or a friend's cue. Then these last 4 days have been miserable. I'm a finesse shooter. I use alot of "throw" english in my position play. Just tonight I was in a tourney and lost a game in losers bracket(8-ball), in which I had about 12 shots. :eek: Let me say that again for effect... TWELVE SHOTS :yikes:

My normal game is opponent gets 1 shot or no shots...period. But now I cant seem to hit the broad side of the barn. I thought perhaps it could be mental but in one game I missed a shot had 4 left and 8ball.. he tried to run out and couldn't...missing and leaving me set up for the easiest 5 ball run out on a bar table (all bunched up withing a 12 inches of each other) My first shot is just a lil bit off of being straight in...probably 2ft from cue ball to pocket. At this point I choose my runout order, english, speed and everything with TOTAL confidence. I stroke my shot steadily and the "throw" I used spun waaaay too much making the object ball miss the pocket by 1/2 inch.

Now.... to get to the help part. PLEASE! reassure me that this is the tip difference messing with the imprint in my brain from using a hard tip, and I'll get through it. Because I'm severely ashamed of how everyone must think of me now. I want to be great, I feel that I can be, but for me to continue to have this "noble sense" that I'm an accomplished pool player and for people to see me in this other light.... it really makes me feel like some loser with false visions of grandeur. I'm an intelligent and stubborn person so I KNOW I'm gonna beat back whatever is holding me down, but what I'd like to know is... how long should it take for me to get used to this new medium moori and the new cueball control mechanics I have to learn? :scratchhead:
 
Ironwill said:
Because I'm severely ashamed of how everyone must think of me now. I want to be great, I feel that I can be, but for me to continue to have this "noble sense" that I'm an accomplished pool player and for people to see me in this other light.... it really makes me feel like some loser with false visions of grandeur. :
Click to expand...

I don't think your problem is your tip. I think you will find your problem clearly stated in the above paragraph.

Steve
 
pooltchr said:
I don't think your problem is your tip. I think you will find your problem clearly stated in the above paragraph.

Steve
Click to expand...

So let me get straight what you're saying... For 4 days, my shots have been going all over the place and I come here to reflect afterwards in the same way that any other player would think in their heart, but just won't say it... and then you take the "easy out" and give me the gandhi answer?

Sooooo, 3 nights ago when I shot 12 scratches and 4 "near" scratches in 4 hours, where as in a regular evening I shoot maybe 2 max., that was my starving ego forcing the cue ball in the holes to make me look bad? Or was my ego looking for sympathy? As for all of these wild shots since I got that moori tip. You're saying that I'm mentally self destructing and my subconscious has found a "crutch" to use with the tip change and is, by force, taking control of my arm and imparting too much "throw" on my shots, even when I'm totally confident that the ball is "dead", that the runout is "dead" ?

Or could it possibly be, and I dare to contradict your reasoning, that the tip change is forcing english on the ball in a different way that my brain has been imprinted with over so many years of shooting?

Steve, if you'll notice there was a tad bit of sarcasm in this reply. I'm normally a humble person and say sir and mam, but your clouded answer really set me off. If you'll notice your username denotes "instructor" and my post titled "I'm asking for help". Funny... it doesn't feel like you helped me any. When I'm shooting my shots, I am truly not thinking about what the crowd or my opponent must be thinking about my skill. That only comes after I've screwed it up and lost. Everyone has "heart" Steve. Every player in the world whether Pro or Amateur wants family, friends and such to be proud of them in some way, or to be impressed with their ability to shoot, if that's their chosen path to pursue. So it naturally reciprocates to the individual to not want to let those families and those friends down. To say that pool players don't think that way is an absolute lie.

Anyhow, regardless of the response, thank you for your "help" Steve.

Will
 
I don't think the problem is in your tip unless it wasn't installed properly.

I will be down your way passing through Wythville in the Spring, if You would like to meet up near I 81 if there's a pool room near there. I would be happy to work with you.

BTW, if you're shooting in bars is it a heavy cueball? or if you're used to the heavy cueball is this one lighter?

It is difficult to identify a solution to the problem with out seeing you play.

A properly installed tip isn't going to make you miss so many shots. That sounds a lot like problems with your stroke or grip.

Something to consider, measuring your ability by winning or losing isn't a great measure, as much of the outcome is determined by the other player.



If you're ever traveling to the DC area let me know I can meet up with you here as well.

Thanks,
 
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dr9ball said:
I don't think the problem is in your tip unless it wasn't installed properly.

I will be down your way passing through Wythville in the Spring, if You would like to meet up near I 81 if there's a pool room near there. I would be happy to work with you.

BTW, if you're shooting in bars is it a heavy cueball? or if you're used to the heavy cueball is this one lighter?

It is difficult to identify a solution to the problem with out seeing you play.

A properly installed tip isn't going to make you miss so many shots. That sounds a lot like problems with your stroke or grip.

Something to consider, measuring your ability by winning or losing isn't a great measure, as much of the outcome is determined by the other player.



If you're ever traveling to the DC area let me know I can meet up with you here as well.

Thanks,
Click to expand...

Thank you... a friend of mine is opening a pool hall in Wytheville within a month or so (migrating up from Mt. Airy). If I'm not mistaken its across from the Pizza Hut at the old Duke's BBQ. If I'm still having problems by that time I would welcome your help and observations.

I have been practicing last week or so with what looks like an Aramith pro cue ball with all the red dots on it... but this one seems much heavier than normal cue balls. Is there a training cue ball that is heavier that looks like an Aramith or is this just the weight of a pro cue ball? I didn't think of that before but this could be exactly what's causing my problem.

Anyhow thank you for your suggestions.

Will
 
If my previous response offended you, then I offer a sincere apology.
I wasn't trying to be ghandi like in my response. I, like Rufus, do not think that a tip can cause the kinds of issues you described.
The paragraph I copied in my response has much to do with your mental outlook. If you are thinking about what other people think about your game, you are creating problems that nobody needs to have. Our value or worth as a pool player has nothing to do with what other people think. It comes from understanding what is going on with our personal game.
If you are thinking about the opinion of others, you can easily find yourself in a downward slide. And the more it happens, the worse things get. You can be creating problems in your own mind that are translating into your physical play.
If you have ever watched a great player grab a cue off the wall and run a few racks, you already know that the cue (or tip) is not the issue. Yes, different equipment requires some adjustment, but it rarely will cause you to miss shots.
Rufus is correct that having someone observe you shooting is the best possible way to identify the root causes of any problems. The issue may well be something quite simple, but the cause must be identified before it can be corrected.
If you can't get together with Rufus, you are only a couple of hours from Charlotte. I'd be happy to work with you if you like.

Steve
 
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Steve after re reading my reply to you it looks as if I may have been too abrasive towards you so I apologize for that...just really frustrated with not knowing the answer to my problem. Rufus hit on a "cue ball" point that grabbed my attention immediately... however I'm still unsure on something maybe you can help answer.

Subject: Cue Balls. I know the general intended diameter and weight of what a cue ball should be but for a week Ive been using what appears to be an Aramith Cue ball with the multi red dots. Ive never shot with one of these before..always just the normal white cue ball or a ball with one red dot or circle on it. It seems that Aramith's are the balls used in pro tourneys but does it stop there? Do lower level tourneys use them? Why are they so much heavier? If Im not gonna be in any tourneys that use this cue ball in the near future then should I refrain from practicing with it? I really feel this might just be whats screwing up my english.

Will
 
Moori Medium Results

I rarely change tips until necessary. About three years ago I was trying to find a new playing cue, narrowed it down and had a friend install a Moori.
I thought the laminated tip would be impressive and help move the ball better. Nothing but problems. I play more now and have a triangle tip on one cue and a Kamui on the other. My stroke is coming back and I trust the tip to do the job. No matter how I tried I hated the Moori.

Could be part or all psychological. For the price of a new tip I do not care
to know. I just need confidence in my cue.
 
There are very minute weight differences (maybe a gram or so) between most cue balls, including the red spotted "measles" ball. The heavy cue balls are often found on coin operated tables, where a magnetic weight has been added. Worse than that, some older tables use an oversize cue ball. Those things change EVERYTHING.
I have played with most all the different cue balls, and have found that they all respond just about the same. The difference is in the stroke. Again, for the most part, and not counting el-cheap-o stuff, most good players can quickly adjust to the different equipment. Balls, tables, rails, cloth, tips, humidity are all variables that we as players need to recognize and correct for. What we need to strive for is consistency in what we do. Our movement is the only thing we have any control over. Everything else reacts to what we do.

Steve
 
Ironwill said:
Steve after re reading my reply to you it looks as if I may have been too abrasive towards you so I apologize for that...just really frustrated with not knowing the answer to my problem. Rufus hit on a "cue ball" point that grabbed my attention immediately... however I'm still unsure on something maybe you can help answer.

Subject: Cue Balls. I know the general intended diameter and weight of what a cue ball should be but for a week Ive been using what appears to be an Aramith Cue ball with the multi red dots. Ive never shot with one of these before..always just the normal white cue ball or a ball with one red dot or circle on it. It seems that Aramith's are the balls used in pro tourneys but does it stop there? Do lower level tourneys use them? Why are they so much heavier? If Im not gonna be in any tourneys that use this cue ball in the near future then should I refrain from practicing with it? I really feel this might just be whats screwing up my english.

Will
Click to expand...

I believe both the red circle and Arimith should be approx 6oz each.
When i was talking about weight I was talking about a Mudd Ball like you'd find in a coin op table. They used to have a larger size also 2 1/2 as opposed to the 2 1/4 we normally play with.

If there's a big difference between the balls in weight you would have to increase your stroke speed to propel the ball the same distance as the small one.
 
dr9ball said:
I believe both the red circle and Arimith should be approx 6oz each.
When i was talking about weight I was talking about a Mudd Ball like you'd find in a coin op table. They used to have a larger size also 2 1/2 as opposed to the 2 1/4 we normally play with.

If there's a big difference between the balls in weight you would have to increase your stroke speed to propel the ball the same distance as the small one.
Click to expand...

I guess I'll have to get the red dotted ball and actually weigh it because its noticeably heavier than the normal cue balls. I knew it was heavier on my first couple shots with it. I'll get them on a scale tomorrow compared to the normal ones I use and find out the difference.
 
Ironwill said:
Ok....hold on lemme take a drink (been one of those nights)...... ok.

Background:

Shot pool for about 12 years and I love the game...I see a pool table and I just have to shoot on it :eek: I lived in a hot humid enviroment and pool shooting became so uncomfortable (sweat dripping off my eyebrows and nose) that I couldn't enjoy the game anymore. Any how that was over 6 years ago.


PRESENT:

Recently (about 2 months) I picked my cue back up since I moved to VA(lil cooler) and have been practicing my butt off. I was picking everything back up very well until about 3 weeks ago. I had a 1/4" thick hard block tip all those years when I shot and starting back was using it... then I decided since it was so thin and and felt reallly hard whenshooting that I would get a Moori med. put on it. I got the cue back about 4 days ago and pool has been nothing but an embarrassment. :frown: I've been beaten out of tournaments for 3 weeks (local bar and pool hall $5.00 entries) now... ones that I either won or got 2nd in before. I do know that for those 3 weeks I didnt have my stick so I was shooting with house cue or a friend's cue. Then these last 4 days have been miserable. I'm a finesse shooter. I use alot of "throw" english in my position play. Just tonight I was in a tourney and lost a game in losers bracket(8-ball), in which I had about 12 shots. :eek: Let me say that again for effect... TWELVE SHOTS :yikes:

My normal game is opponent gets 1 shot or no shots...period. But now I cant seem to hit the broad side of the barn. I thought perhaps it could be mental but in one game I missed a shot had 4 left and 8ball.. he tried to run out and couldn't...missing and leaving me set up for the easiest 5 ball run out on a bar table (all bunched up withing a 12 inches of each other) My first shot is just a lil bit off of being straight in...probably 2ft from cue ball to pocket. At this point I choose my runout order, english, speed and everything with TOTAL confidence. I stroke my shot steadily and the "throw" I used spun waaaay too much making the object ball miss the pocket by 1/2 inch.

Now.... to get to the help part. PLEASE! reassure me that this is the tip difference messing with the imprint in my brain from using a hard tip, and I'll get through it. Because I'm severely ashamed of how everyone must think of me now. I want to be great, I feel that I can be, but for me to continue to have this "noble sense" that I'm an accomplished pool player and for people to see me in this other light.... it really makes me feel like some loser with false visions of grandeur. I'm an intelligent and stubborn person so I KNOW I'm gonna beat back whatever is holding me down, but what I'd like to know is... how long should it take for me to get used to this new medium moori and the new cueball control mechanics I have to learn? :scratchhead:
Click to expand...


Based on what you wrote, it seems to me that the Moori Medium is not for you. If I were you I'd change it back to a hard tip. I have had the opposite happen to me. I prefer a Moori med, and one time a friend put a hard tip on and didn't tell me. I was freaking out. I couldn't spin a shot to save my life because I was used to the feel of the softer tip. To me, it felt like the tip was slipping off the cue ball. To you, it probably felt like the Moori was grabbing the ball too much.

I don't know the science of tips but I do know the difference between the feel of a hard tip and the feel of a softer tip. They are totally different.

I do think though, that Steve has a good point in that we should probably be able to play with any tip if we had good strokes. I guess we both have to work on our strokes, but for now, I see nothing wrong with changing your tip.

Good luck....

Fran
P.S. And while you're at it, you might want to have the tip cut down because you seem to prefer it low as well, which is also a different feel.
 
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Keep it simple. Change your tip and see if your results improve. If they improve, then great. Problem solved. Case closed.

If they don't improve, look for other possible problems that could be causing poor results.
 
Excuse the intrusion. Mark has a good idea even though it could cost you $50 going hard then back.

But concerning CB weights. You may very well find that the spotted ball weighs more than another ball you've been playing with. Just a couple of questions.

How old is the lighter ball compared to the spotted ball?
How often are the tables cleaned where these two balls reside?

A ball gliding down a table full of chalk is like sending it down a bed of sand paper.
 
DING DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD! :eek: And if she's still breathing (as Mjr Payne said) She aint happy! :grin: I wanna thank everyone for interjecting advice in there. I was so frustrated for almost a week there thinking it was the tip... but it seems that it was definitely the weighted cue ball I used for that week practicing. I'm not saying that my slump is over, Im too smart to assume that but I'm already adjusting back.

I won 9 ball tourney tonight at a local sports bar 25 people in it. But to be honest my happy part isn't the winning or the 75 bucks. It was the fact that for last week or less I've been missing at least 50% of my shots because I got used to putting too much english for that "heavy" cue ball and on the lighter normal ones I was spinning them like a top. Also lil over a week ago I started drinking energy drinks and I believe this has made me jittery making my elbow twitch so I've stopped that as well. Well, tonight I over spun or missed 5 total shots the whole tourney (when I wasn't safety'd) I even broke, made one ball on the break, then ran out the other 8 balls and FOUR of them I banked (something I'm awesome at btw). The confidence just flowed back into me like a river and MAN it felt good.


Mark Avlon said:
Keep it simple. Change your tip and see if your results improve. If they improve, then great. Problem solved. Case closed.

If they don't improve, look for other possible problems that could be causing poor results.
Click to expand...

Thank you Mark and Fran for your input I appreciate it... but I'm gonna beat this tip like a red headed stepchild :bash: Not gonna let it beat me :tongue:

3kushn said:
Excuse the intrusion. Mark has a good idea even though it could cost you $50 going hard then back.

But concerning CB weights. You may very well find that the spotted ball weighs more than another ball you've been playing with. Just a couple of questions.

How old is the lighter ball compared to the spotted ball?
How often are the tables cleaned where these two balls reside?

A ball gliding down a table full of chalk is like sending it down a bed of sand paper.
Click to expand...

Hey Kushn, Im not sure about those 2 measles balls on how old and at this point I dont care if they get nuked! ... The tables are well taken care of. I hope Im on my way to climbing out of this lil hole I fell in. :wink:
 
Get rid of the moori and you will find out.

Put on a triangle or a LaPro. This will tell the story. You might be surprised what you find out.

I was...........
 
genomachino said:
Get rid of the moori and you will find out.

Put on a triangle or a LaPro. This will tell the story. You might be surprised what you find out.

I was...........
Click to expand...

I hated my moori experience. Maybe it was the one I had, but I need to be very cognisant of chalking up often and make sure it was scuffed up because it wouldn't hold chalk after a few games. If I got lazy I'd miscue. Never had so many miscues in my life. I really liked the feel of it though.

Triangles on the other hand, do not feel as good but they perform well. I'm not sure how to articulate it though as I'm not much of an equipment guy. They hold chalk wonderfully, and I find they are very low maintnance.
 
Tip

I don't see how the cue balls weight could be so much heavier/lighter.

Another thing could be the tip from before (hard) wasn't getting nearly as much spin. Whether due to shape or hardness, but I'm guessing you were use to that hard tip with less than a nickel radius and then switched to a medium with close to or over a dime radius.

Psychologically you probably didn't adjust quickly and as a result you missed more and more shots causing you to be frustrated and thinking about the tip too much and not enough about the shots. Never change to a new tip and go play in a tournament without getting hours and hours of practice getting use to it.

Another question is why do you use soo much spin on the ball and try to "Throw" so many shots in? Try to shoot a whole night with only staying on the vertical axis of the cue ball and you'll be surprised when you make more shots.
 
Spin can be your best friend and your worst enemy-
If you re seriously practicing you should shoot the same ball with different types of english-
I for myself prefer to use english just if it is necessary. So many guys (and for sure very good players) shooting each ball with a type of english-it works for them. But in my opinion you can handle almost every ball and position just staying on the vertical line (center, follow, backspin). This needs/gives you a better control over the cueball.
English when needed-
Keep it simple-

And the kind of tip is more a subjective personal feeling. I love to test around in the material-jungle. But all in all you can make every type of ball with the same english-no matter if it s a rockhard tip or a super soft tip.
Just your style of play,

lg
Ingo
 
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