if the APA handicap system really works

decent dennis said:
Bingo we have a winner. A little history lesson, apa started as the old busch league.No team handicap just individual. you get five sevens,i get five two's,you spot me 25 games a night. lasted two yrs.then they made it a 36 team handicap.that lasted a couple year's. then 32 and so on. there will be some who will say"it's a different league". i say it's still terry bell and i guess larry hubbart is still involved. but basically ,it's a handicap on top of a handicp, which say's the system doesn't work or it's a way of multiplying teams .
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What's wrong with combining methods of handicapping? It happens all the time. Last 2 and the breaks. Wild 8 and a game on the wire. 10-8 and the breaks. Balls spots, game spots, money odds. And so on.

Different types of spots can address different types of disparities. The APA race spots move races in the direction of 50-50, but to reach anything like that using only individual games needed would require races that are way too long for highly mismatched skills. The 23 cap addresses this in a way that doesn't require ridiculously long races.

It also helps the league grow and make more money. And yes, it's lame when you have to split up your team, which I've done a few times over the years. But all in all, it works pretty well.
 
the system is flawed, it may work for the league,but it doesnt work for the players.

the problem is you almost always see the cream (better players) rise to the top, when in fact the lower rated players should have just as good a chance at winning. this would bring alot more players into our sport.

jmho
 
ottersbro said:
the system is flawed, it may work for the league,but it doesnt work for the players.

the problem is you almost always see the cream (better players) rise to the top, when in fact the lower rated players should have just as good a chance at winning. this would bring alot more players into our sport.

jmho
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You mean like the almost 300,000 that play APA now?

Seems to work reasonably well, in that regard, at least.
 
justadub said:
You mean like the almost 300,000 that play APA now?

Seems to work reasonably well, in that regard, at least.
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like i said it works for the business end.
just imagine if it were more competitive. better competition
= more players and more money.:wink:
 
Not to play Devil's Advocate or go down a path that's been traveled thousands of times, but count me in the camp that believes the 23-rule is a mechanism of "forced" league expansion. As teams improve, they are forced to break up because they can no longer field a lineup at/under 23 and have to find "new blood" to bring into the league if they want to continue playing. And everyone wonders why sandbagging is so rampant in the APA??? :confused:

DISCLAIMER: The opinion expressed here is just that - an opinion - and mine alone. I no longer play APA. I have no desire to ever play APA again. It is not for me, so I do not play.
 
if your an apa2 or3 you dont have a snowballs chance in heck to compete with a 7. now if the system is changed to make it an even game then it becomes fun and competitive for the players.

jmo :cool:

take it for what it is worth
 
ottersbro said:
if your an apa2 or3 you dont have a snowballs chance in heck to compete with a 7. now if the system is changed to make it an even game then it becomes fun and competitive for the players.

jmo :cool:

take it for what it is worth
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Which is why I seldom play SL2's and SL3's against SL7's, unless I need to. (playoffs, usually, and I tell my player ahead of time what's going on and why)

I'd far rather keep my matchups close to even, most of the time, for the players sake. Yes, I occasionally run an SL4 against the other teams SL7, for matchup purposes. But not every time. Often it is done to us, as well. And most SL4's can see what's ahead of them, and make the SL7 work for it.

I don't enjoy watching an newbie SL2 trying to slog it out over 7 matches against an SL7. No one else does, either. No one has much fun that way. The SL2 doesn't really learn anything, either. Yes, playing someone better than them should help, but being run over doesn't exactly teach them much about how they play, themselves.
 
ottersbro...I'll play devil's advocate for a second here. When I was an APA LO 20 years ago, the APA predicted that they would hit a million members by the millennium. It didn't happen. Even now, when they have double what they had 20 years ago (150K vs 300K), I do not believe they will ever reach 1,000,000 members...for lots of reasons. The truth is that there are 10x as many league players, playing in unsanctioned local leagues (some with a payback, many without...almost none with any kind of handicap). That is where grassroots pool needs to begin, if you want big numbers in league players. Bashing the APA won't do anything...other than make the vocal minority here "feel better" for complaining about it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

ottersbro said:
like i said it works for the business end.
just imagine if it were more competitive. better competition
= more players and more money.:wink:
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cap

KoolKiller said:
I'm all against sandbagging and I don't want to cheat.
Last week I won my match rackless and instead of cheering for my victory, the captain was really upset and nervous and brought up the issue with the whole team not being able to play 5 players if I go up. We had two players gone up after we won the qualifications.

Now I'm in the situation where if i keep shooting the way I should be, the entire team will be disqualified and it looks like I let all my teammates down.

I decided not to play for the team until the June match. I also went out and find a local league that's handicapped but has no Cap for all the team.

So now I think I do have a valid point here, APA handicap system is NOT as good as they claimed to be. If it really is, then I don't see the necessity of having a 23 Cap.
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I have to disagree with you about having a valid point, having a cap and the way the handicap system works are two different things and one has nothing to do with the other.

What is it that you don't seem to understand, there is a 23 limit to give teams an equal chance to win and it does by having teams with different skill levels. The cap doesn't have anything to do with making teams split up or to determine the handicaps of your team. in any given match any player has a chance to win the match. sounds like the team you are on is a bunch of cheaters and is going to get what they deserve.

Like Scott Lee explained to you that if there was no cap you would not have teams with 2, 3, 4, 5 skill levels playing. teams would only ask the best players they could find to play on their team.

The BCA team i play on doesn't have anyone that isn't a strong player and the same couple of teams win every session.

Good luck
 
Ctwitty said:
I have to disagree with you about having a valid point, having a cap and the way the handicap system works are two different things and one has nothing to do with the other.

What is it that you don't seem to understand, there is a 23 limit to give teams an equal chance to win and it does by having teams with different skill levels. The cap doesn't have anything to do with making teams split up or to determine the handicaps of your team. in any given match any player has a chance to win the match. sounds like the team you are on is a bunch of cheaters and is going to get what they deserve.

Like Scott Lee explained to you that if there was no cap you would not have teams with 2, 3, 4, 5 skill levels playing. teams would only ask the best players they could find to play on their team.

The BCA team i play on doesn't have anyone that isn't a strong player and the same couple of teams win every session.

Good luck
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What you don't seem to understand is this twenty three started out as 36 years ago.
 
Scott Lee said:
ottersbro...I'll play devil's advocate for a second here. When I was an APA LO 20 years ago, the APA predicted that they would hit a million members by the millennium. It didn't happen. Even now, when they have double what they had 20 years ago (150K vs 300K), I do not believe they will ever reach 1,000,000 members...for lots of reasons. The truth is that there are 10x as many league players, playing in unsanctioned local leagues (some with a payback, many without...almost none with any kind of handicap). That is where grassroots pool needs to begin, if you want big numbers in league players. Bashing the APA won't do anything...other than make the vocal minority here "feel better" for complaining about it.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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scott im not trying to bash the apa, i just think that if they had a better rating system it would make it more competitive.
i just cant see where it would be fun to play, knowing you have little or no chance to win. :thumbup:
 
ottersbro said:
scott im not trying to bash the apa, i just think that if they had a better rating system it would make it more competitive.
i just cant see where it would be fun to play, knowing you have little or no chance to win. :thumbup:
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The APA division I play in has 14 teams. With 4 weeks to go 1st through 10th are separated by 2 points and last is only 7 points out. How much more competitive do you need.

This is true of most of the divisions in my L.O.'s area.

Seems the team equalizer works pretty good around here.

Leagueguy
 
Again, for the sake of argument, my point is that IF, and that's a big if from what I saw, the "Equalizer" system DOES provide a nearly equal chance for all SL players to win the match, no matter who they play, then the 23 cap is unnecessary.

All the stuff you just mentioned why 23 cap is important just approved that the handicap system is not as efficient as it was claimed to be. And that's exactly why they need the 23 cap.





Ctwitty said:
I have to disagree with you about having a valid point, having a cap and the way the handicap system works are two different things and one has nothing to do with the other.

What is it that you don't seem to understand, there is a 23 limit to give teams an equal chance to win and it does by having teams with different skill levels. The cap doesn't have anything to do with making teams split up or to determine the handicaps of your team. in any given match any player has a chance to win the match. sounds like the team you are on is a bunch of cheaters and is going to get what they deserve.

Like Scott Lee explained to you that if there was no cap you would not have teams with 2, 3, 4, 5 skill levels playing. teams would only ask the best players they could find to play on their team.

The BCA team i play on doesn't have anyone that isn't a strong player and the same couple of teams win every session.

Good luck
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Come on, I know a lot of people want to bash the APA so they throw common sense out and make ridiculous extreme statements to make a point. (i.e. a 2 can't beat a 7 50% of the time so the handicap system doesn't work). Yeah that really proves something.

Handicaps break people into buckets as much as feasibly possible given the time constraints for 5 matches being played in one night(no match takes more than 9 games, no matter the 2 players). The 23 rule forces the issue, given how long a given match can feasibly take, of not being able to load a team of players up that would force 5 huge spots to actually make it fair.

The fact that most 6's play fairly even with other 6's, or a 4 vs 5, or a 3 vs 5 match can go either way is a huge indicator that the system does work. Yes at the far end of the extremes (2 and 7) it falls apart a little, so why not put a rule that limits any team from being able to manipulate that weakness?

Obviously the 23 rule does 2 things: 1. makes the league grow, 2. solves the issue of the 7 handicap being such a huge chunk of skill ranges (everything from a solid B player to an open player whose borderline being eligible to participate).

Face it the 23 rule is an elegant answer to stopping the 5 best players in the state from playing together. The only other options are to either let them play together and just win (i.e. kill anyone from wanting to play, that's a great business idea) or make the races so long that it wouldn't be practical to get them done in one night.

But I digress...
 
rope_one said:
Come on, I know a lot of people want to bash the APA so they throw common sense out and make ridiculous extreme statements to make a point. (i.e. a 2 can't beat a 7 50% of the time so the handicap system doesn't work). Yeah that really proves something.

Handicaps break people into buckets as much as feasibly possible given the time constraints for 5 matches being played in one night(no match takes more than 9 games, no matter the 2 players). The 23 rule forces the issue, given how long a given match can feasibly take, of not being able to load a team of players up that would force 5 huge spots to actually make it fair.

The fact that most 6's play fairly even with other 6's, or a 4 vs 5, or a 3 vs 5 match can go either way is a huge indicator that the system does work. Yes at the far end of the extremes (2 and 7) it falls apart a little, so why not put a rule that limits any team from being able to manipulate that weakness?

Obviously the 23 rule does 2 things: 1. makes the league grow, 2. solves the issue of the 7 handicap being such a huge chunk of skill ranges (everything from a solid B player to an open player whose borderline being eligible to participate).

Face it the 23 rule is an elegant answer to stopping the 5 best players in the state from playing together. The only other options are to either let them play together and just win (i.e. kill anyone from wanting to play, that's a great business idea) or make the races so long that it wouldn't be practical to get them done in one night.

But I digress...
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Nicely summarized. :thumbup:
 
ctyhntr said:
Was the scale always 2-7, and the team limit 33? When did this change?
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The scale was always 2-7. In 1980 i believe[i could be wrong] there was no team handicap.couple years later 36 limit was brought in.couple years later 32 and so on ,until they have now reached 23.
 
i think the handicap system works. as with any system you have to have accurate scorekeeping and a good lo. we got a new lo a few months ago and he caught a sandbagger a few weeks ago, raised him from a 3 to a 5 lol.

as far as matching a 2 up against a 7, our captain tries to avoid that but sometimes the opposing team wikk throw a 7 against our weaker players in order to win a game if they are trailing us that night. i am a 5 and the highest level player on my team so my captain is always matching me up against all the 6s and 7s we face and i love it. playing a higher level player seems to bring out the best in me. i have played 10 games this session winning 6 of them. i have the highest top gun points in my division for my level, 32 points after winning 6. one of my 4 losses was to a 2 proving on any given night anybody can beat anybody.

as i stated i am the highest skill level on my team as a 5. we have 2 4s and 2 3s and 2 girls that are 2s. there are 8 teams in our division and every other team has at least 1 s/7 and some of them have 1 or 2 6s also yet we are in 3rd place in 8 ball and 1st place in 9 ball therefore i believe that the handicap system works.
 
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