Master Teams

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Mark Griffin

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We just finished the 35th Annual BCAPL National Championships.

Everything went real well - the testing and online charts all worked as designed.

Here is the problem that perplexes us:

Where have the master teams gone?

When we took over the leagues in 2004 - the largest Master field was 24 men and 14 women. That was with $20,000 added. By 2009 that had decreased to 13 men and 8 women teams. That means we were adding almost $1,000 per team to play. Not fair to the rest of our league players - especially when there was little support from the master level players.

Starting in 2010, we reduced the added money to $10,000 between the men & women. We got 14 men and 10 women.

Through all of the years, there was a common complaint. 'Our league cannot field a team of 5 masters. Our population is too small'.

We felt that was a legitimate complaint. So we decided to make the 5 man teams down to 3 person teams (still $100 per person entry). AND we said they could sign up on site and the players could come from ANYWHERE - just as long as they were league players and not player members.

We had very weak turnout.

I have read in another thread that VNEA only had about 13 master teams 2 years ago. ACS dropped their master teams a year or so ago.

CSI/BCAPL staff is all pool players. We want to support all players but always want to have a place for the good players.

So where have all of the master teams gone??? All leagues seems to have the same proboem with singles for masters. The fields never grow and often shrink. Do the master level players just try to get to a lower division? Do they no longer want to compete with their peers?

We really thought our Master Team could get up to the 32 man field range. I think we ended up with 4 teams.

So what gives. I think this is an industry wide problem - not just BCAPL.

Your comments and thoughts would be appreciated.
Mark Griffin
 
The number of new pool room openings are shrinking while the number of pool room closings are growing.

Added prize money can only go so far.

Pool culture is thriving on AZ but this might be the exception to the rule.

The economy is also very bad, so that might have an effect on discretionary spending like spending on pool time.
 
Mark Griffin said:
We just finished the 35th Annual BCAPL National Championships.

Everything went real well - the testing and online charts all worked as designed.

Here is the problem that perplexes us:

Where have the master teams gone?

When we took over the leagues in 2004 - the largest Master field was 24 men and 14 women. That was with $20,000 added. By 2009 that had decreased to 13 men and 8 women teams. That means we were adding almost $1,000 per team to play. Not fair to the rest of our league players - especially when there was little support from the master level players.

Starting in 2010, we reduced the added money to $10,000 between the men & women. We got 14 men and 10 women.

Through all of the years, there was a common complaint. 'Our league cannot field a team of 5 masters. Our population is too small'.

We felt that was a legitimate complaint. So we decided to make the 5 man teams down to 3 person teams (still $100 per person entry). AND we said they could sign up on site and the players could come from ANYWHERE - just as long as they were league players and not player members.

We had very weak turnout.

I have read in another thread that VNEA only had about 13 master teams 2 years ago. ACS dropped their master teams a year or so ago.

CSI/BCAPL staff is all pool players. We want to support all players but always want to have a place for the good players.

So where have all of the master teams gone??? All leagues seems to have the same proboem with singles for masters. The fields never grow and often shrink. Do the master level players just try to get to a lower division? Do they no longer want to compete with their peers?

We really thought our Master Team could get up to the 32 man field range. I think we ended up with 4 teams.

So what gives. I think this is an industry wide problem - not just BCAPL.

Your comments and thoughts would be appreciated.
Mark Griffin
Click to expand...

From personal experience of playing in league.. pool just isn't big enough to support it yet. If the economy was in gear then, well that would be different perhaps.

But it's not, so what you have is people sitting at home wishin they had the money to get out and play.

Lot of it has to do with popularity, and the other major half has a lot to do with the 2nd paragraph ^

all IMO anyway.
 
paksat said:
From personal experience of playing in league.. pool just isn't big enough to support it yet. If the economy was in gear then, well that would be different perhaps.

But it's not, so what you have is people sitting at home wishin they had the money to get out and play.

Lot of it has to do with popularity, and the other major half has a lot to do with the 2nd paragraph ^

all IMO anyway.
Click to expand...

Unemployment is pretty high and pool expenses are not high priority items, at least not to the average consumer. The average consumer being someone suffering from the ravages of the economy.
 
I think the players that get into that category are players that think about the money more than anything. If they cant get into a tourney with a strong edge then they figure out a way to do something with a bigger edge. Its easier to load up on a team of unknowns than it is to fill a masters team with a team that will have that same edge in a Masters only tourney.


-Perk
 
Mark, up to a few years ago, we had enuff Masters to field a nice division in VNEA in our small city. Then all of a sudden, boom, all gone.
They did a Modified intermediate division to accommodate a few of the Masters that were still around.

Seems that the problem is far and wide. Maybe they felt that they had gone as far as they could and lost interest.
But still, it seems that you have/had nice payouts that should have warranted a decent turnout.
 
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Masters Teams

I have played the past 3 years in the VNEA masters teams -it is a sad state to say the least. Last year we had 12 teams with 5 from Canada.

We are playing again this year but I think they need to combine the Masters and Intermediate divisions.

Just my 2 cents...
 
Iowa (ISPA) has the same issue. Almost 1000 Open (1&2) players, and barely 30 Masters with ~12 teams.

If you find the answer - let us know.

I think the part about the 'edge' is somewhat correct for a portion of Master Players. It seems as if the players that want to cross swords with equal or better competition are the exception, rather than the rule.

I doubt it is for lack of players with 'Master' level skill.
 
Why is everyone surprised? Leagues are set up for the masses. Joe-Average who wants a night out. Leagues are not configured for the elite. So why expect a big field of such?

Nick
 
Nick B said:
Why is everyone surprised? Leagues are set up for the masses. Joe-Average who wants a night out. Leagues are not configured for the elite. So why expect a big field of such?

Nick
Click to expand...

Because there was once a big field and second chances are always worth pursuing.

Maybe we can get Kevin Trudeau to restart the IPT again. The IPT is a great metaphor for the big game but I don't know how well the billiard community would like a fictional story where the big event is the IPT, though historically the IPT is the biggest paying event in billiard history.
 
I don't get it. What do Masters have to do with second chances.

I think KT has moved on to a new group of suckers. Even the foolish figure out they are getting fleeced over time.

Nick

justnum said:
Because there was once a big field and second chances are always worth pursuing.

Maybe we can get Kevin Trudeau to restart the IPT again. The IPT is a great metaphor for the big game but I don't know how well the billiard community would like a fictional story where the big event is the IPT, though historically the IPT is the biggest paying event in billiard history.
Click to expand...
 
Because

leagues, currently and historically, punish players for getting better with outmolded handicap systems. After awhile you just get tired of it. You should be rewarded for getting better, not vica versa.
 
Nick B said:
I don't get it. What do Masters have to do with second chances.

I think KT has moved on to a new group of suckers. Even the foolish figure out they are getting fleeced over time.

Nick
Click to expand...

KT started the amateur team led by pros event, that could help kick things off again. Someone would have to ask Kev for how to get that stuff done but he might volunteer the help because he has been so generous with money.
 
There is no way to keep score.No statistics,no widely excepted rule book and record book,no exclusivity.Emphasis on participation not quality.A large disconnect between low level players to those who are good,reducing subtle motivations to improve,Apathy.

The rungs of the ladder from the bottom to the top are blurred.They need to be crystal clear.

The first to recognize these issues in any competitive game or sport are players who are consumed with always looking for an edge.Usually the better players.

De-emphasizing competition for an immediate value of participation.
 
We've got over a hundred players in our local BCA league. Many, many of them are master caliber. But I'd say that only a couple probably know about events like the BCAPL National Championship and even if most of them did know, most of them still wouldn't be able to attend simply because of the cost involved or the necessity to get time off from work or getting their significant others to agree, and on and on.

Perhaps its partially due to poor advance advertising. I only knew about the event because it was mentioned here on AZ. Nobody in our league, certainly not the operator, ever hands out flyers on BCA events to league members, for example.

While we have a very active BCA league, I'd say the average age of the players is closer to 35 or 40. In other words, we're not seeing a host of young guys walking in the door wanting to play pool. For one thing its difficult to learn and play well. It's far easier, it seems, to play Texas hold'em online or in local tourneys and there is plenty of cash involved, more so than pool will ever see.

So just as a guess, I'd say you're fighting not only demographics, but competing pastimes with significant prize money. Heck, the other day I saw a dart competition that was offering a 60K first prize if I recall correctly.
 
For all the people here on AZB that moan and complain about handicap systems, Masters Divisions should be all the rage.

So why isn't it? Virtually everyone here on AZB is an "A" player, and better than a lowly league player. (Generalizations, I realize. But it is the feeling I get reading threads on a regular basis.) Handicapping is evil to them, it should be about who is the best.

So.... here we are. Apparently, "the best" don't wanna play against "the best". At least that's what it seems like from Marks report. Certainly not the way folks here talk, most times...

I will be interested in following this.
 
Mark, maybe this is just a coincidence ( if you believe in them) but it appears that the reduction in Masters at league events coincides with explosion of new tours around the country.

Me thinks that maybe these types of players are now playing in regional tours instead of pool leagues.

Regional tours and larger local tourneys seem to be the next step and always have been the next step for players who's capabilities have outgrown there local pool league. It's a natural progression but with the explosion of the regional tours we have had in the last decade it seems that maybe it has affected the leagues at that level of competition more now than it ever has before.

Anyway, I know a guy who knows a guy that has a few ideas about this and how maybe something can be put together to help the players and your league work together with the regional tours to make everything coincide for the benefit of all of the players this affects. Maybe you should give me a call and I will call the guy and ask him to call that guy and that guy can call you..................
 
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