Master Teams
- Thread starter Mark Griffin
- Start date
I don't think I am at master level, probably not even close. I do know that I am able to enter local bar tournys here and with an ante of $5 am able to have a chance at winning $100 for 1st and usually close to $35 for 3rd. At one location I play I have won the past two Sunday night tournys for a combined total of $150. Yes this is less than the aforementioned $100 for first, but this is a very small bar with few participants. So I have a much better return on investment by staying at home and playing locally. I also agree with previous posters opinions that masters level players are reluctant to play against people of their own ability. They like the attention and acolades they receive for defeating lesser players, and their egos are too fragile to risk being beaten repeatedly. Just look at the reaction when an APA 7 gets beaten by a 4:grin-square:. I know that not all high calibre players fit this mold....but here it seems to be the rule rather than the exception.
I really don't see the economy as the issue. If your business is off say by 15% because of the economy it would apply across the board. The costs for all players regardless of skill are equal.
Assuming my argument is valid then we have to look at something else. The core customer is always KING in every business model. BMW doesn't care about the pickup market and KIA doesn't pursue the high luxury at any cost space. All the leagues are about participants which equates to revenue. All other initiatives are side line issues (eduaction....fill in list as required). First and foremost it's a business. Love of the game will only get you so far. Guys like Mark seem like good guys but I'm sure that even a sugar-daddy will only support a business bleeding losses for so long. Thus it's a business....and their is NOTHING wrong with this.
The leagues are really set up for lower-mid level players. Unless your region has a super-hot density of Master level players then your league must be built on this core base. So I have established that the bulk of the players are built up of the aforementioned then the Master-Elite level player is not only not wanted he shouldn't be there. It's no fun (at least for me) running out on a opponent who needs 6 turns on average to run a rack. Then you do and they look at you like you just kicked his dog..."what the f' are you doing here". Been there...done that...got the t-shirt. They want to go out. Hit some balls. Sling some drinks and occasionally high five their buddy's in victory. What challenge is it for me that I know I can miss with almost impunity and know I will get back in.
It should thus be no surprise that the Masters are an endangered species for leagues. Mark, thank you for what you do for the game. Keep servicing the core.
Nick
Assuming my argument is valid then we have to look at something else. The core customer is always KING in every business model. BMW doesn't care about the pickup market and KIA doesn't pursue the high luxury at any cost space. All the leagues are about participants which equates to revenue. All other initiatives are side line issues (eduaction....fill in list as required). First and foremost it's a business. Love of the game will only get you so far. Guys like Mark seem like good guys but I'm sure that even a sugar-daddy will only support a business bleeding losses for so long. Thus it's a business....and their is NOTHING wrong with this.
The leagues are really set up for lower-mid level players. Unless your region has a super-hot density of Master level players then your league must be built on this core base. So I have established that the bulk of the players are built up of the aforementioned then the Master-Elite level player is not only not wanted he shouldn't be there. It's no fun (at least for me) running out on a opponent who needs 6 turns on average to run a rack. Then you do and they look at you like you just kicked his dog..."what the f' are you doing here". Been there...done that...got the t-shirt. They want to go out. Hit some balls. Sling some drinks and occasionally high five their buddy's in victory. What challenge is it for me that I know I can miss with almost impunity and know I will get back in.
It should thus be no surprise that the Masters are an endangered species for leagues. Mark, thank you for what you do for the game. Keep servicing the core.
Nick
Mark,
I'd say most Master's level players don't see the game as a team sport.
I would likely keep the weekly qualifying the way it is and change the format in Vegas to a singles tournament. You have to play as a team to get your spot but once you get there part of the money gets paid by how you do yourself and then the rest of the cash is for team payout for highest avg finish.
That way if I show up and go nuts and take the event down I get rewarded something even if my 2 teammates go 2 and out. If we all show up with our A games and make it into the final 20 we'd have a shot at the team money.
I don't know how your schedule would handle the changes but I definitely could see me considering league play if this was how Vegas worked.
I'd say most Master's level players don't see the game as a team sport.
I would likely keep the weekly qualifying the way it is and change the format in Vegas to a singles tournament. You have to play as a team to get your spot but once you get there part of the money gets paid by how you do yourself and then the rest of the cash is for team payout for highest avg finish.
That way if I show up and go nuts and take the event down I get rewarded something even if my 2 teammates go 2 and out. If we all show up with our A games and make it into the final 20 we'd have a shot at the team money.
I don't know how your schedule would handle the changes but I definitely could see me considering league play if this was how Vegas worked.
i h8 leagues
this is why i hate leagues, all the handicapping and grading of players. what ever happened to the competitive attitude of pool players.
i play, if i get beat, i practice more to get better. i don't hate those that are better than me, i envy, emulate, and try to learn from them.
how does any person, or entire division of players, expect to get better if they weed out the top players out of their divisions year after year.
take a look at golf, at one point tiger woods was the first of a new generation of golfer, winning everything...........now everyone has stepped up their game to be competitive with him, and the entire field is deeper and better for it. even tiger in his last press interview exclaimed how winning is so much harder for him now than it was 14 years ago
this is why i hate leagues, all the handicapping and grading of players. what ever happened to the competitive attitude of pool players.
i play, if i get beat, i practice more to get better. i don't hate those that are better than me, i envy, emulate, and try to learn from them.
how does any person, or entire division of players, expect to get better if they weed out the top players out of their divisions year after year.
take a look at golf, at one point tiger woods was the first of a new generation of golfer, winning everything...........now everyone has stepped up their game to be competitive with him, and the entire field is deeper and better for it. even tiger in his last press interview exclaimed how winning is so much harder for him now than it was 14 years ago
[QUOTE I also agree with previous posters opinions that masters level players are reluctant to play against people of their own ability. They like the attention and accolades they receive for defeating lesser players, and their egos are too fragile to risk being beaten repeatedly. Just look at the reaction when an APA 7 gets beaten by a 4:grin-square:. I know that not all high calibre players fit this mold....but here it seems to be the rule rather than the exception.[/QUOTE]
This for me couldn't be further from the truth.Attention and accolades should be reserved for beating peers close to or of equal or better strength.Most league systems seem to breed this apathy.They share fundamental flaws in structure.
This for me couldn't be further from the truth.Attention and accolades should be reserved for beating peers close to or of equal or better strength.Most league systems seem to breed this apathy.They share fundamental flaws in structure.
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Mark,
I truely dont understand why there is a Masters Team event to begin with.
The only reason why I can think of is to allow the Master players to compete against players of the same level and to not team up and dominate the other divisions in a team event. Other than that, that is the only reason to have a Masters team event that I can think of.
I feel that the Masters are not involve enough with the average player and having there own team event at Nationals really segregates them and doesnt allow the average player a chance to ever play against them. I think that the old format of allowing one Master per team should come back into the rules.
Also, I do feel that the Open Teams should be seperated into two divisions.
One Division should have the requirement of all members of the team to have played in the singles events prior to the team event and would have more money added to it with bigger payouts.
This will allow for the tournament committe to actually be able to verify the teams ability and if lets say 4 of the team players finished in the top %10 of the open singles event, wouldnt you think that team should be moved up into a different division based on "known Ability".
Why more money, because that team would be there for the entire time and this will entice more teams to compete in the singles events.
The other division should be the teams that all the players did not play in the singles events with less money added than the other Open Teams Division.
Since a lot of players do not play singles just because they dont want to be moved up in Divisions, the open teams is full of players that should be Masters and there is really no way to designate these players after they get to the National event. So this division should still fall under the same rules as how a team should be set up with caliber of players, but it allows for the BCAPL to actually watch this division and deem if a player should be moved out of this division or to contact the league operator and re-verify the players division.
So what happens to a team that shows up and plays and gets caught with a Master level player on the team, disqualify them, or remove that player from that team and let them continue without a replacement player. You do that once or twice and it will fix that problem from ever happening again and it will definately send a message to the top players to not to try and do that and it will send a message to the other players that the BCAPL is protecting them from sandbaggers or a team trying to rob the Open Division.
Its just an idea and may be a little hard core for most and there would definately be some complaining, but in my opinion, it would protect and verify team divisions and would weed out the Masters in the Open Team events which in the long run would increase the amount of players eligible for Masters teams and increase the amount of teams that enter that division if the BCAPL still wants to hold a Master Teams Division.
Thank you for reading, and there are great ideas within this thread and hope all goes well for next years event.
I truely dont understand why there is a Masters Team event to begin with.
The only reason why I can think of is to allow the Master players to compete against players of the same level and to not team up and dominate the other divisions in a team event. Other than that, that is the only reason to have a Masters team event that I can think of.
I feel that the Masters are not involve enough with the average player and having there own team event at Nationals really segregates them and doesnt allow the average player a chance to ever play against them. I think that the old format of allowing one Master per team should come back into the rules.
Also, I do feel that the Open Teams should be seperated into two divisions.
One Division should have the requirement of all members of the team to have played in the singles events prior to the team event and would have more money added to it with bigger payouts.
This will allow for the tournament committe to actually be able to verify the teams ability and if lets say 4 of the team players finished in the top %10 of the open singles event, wouldnt you think that team should be moved up into a different division based on "known Ability".
Why more money, because that team would be there for the entire time and this will entice more teams to compete in the singles events.
The other division should be the teams that all the players did not play in the singles events with less money added than the other Open Teams Division.
Since a lot of players do not play singles just because they dont want to be moved up in Divisions, the open teams is full of players that should be Masters and there is really no way to designate these players after they get to the National event. So this division should still fall under the same rules as how a team should be set up with caliber of players, but it allows for the BCAPL to actually watch this division and deem if a player should be moved out of this division or to contact the league operator and re-verify the players division.
So what happens to a team that shows up and plays and gets caught with a Master level player on the team, disqualify them, or remove that player from that team and let them continue without a replacement player. You do that once or twice and it will fix that problem from ever happening again and it will definately send a message to the top players to not to try and do that and it will send a message to the other players that the BCAPL is protecting them from sandbaggers or a team trying to rob the Open Division.
Its just an idea and may be a little hard core for most and there would definately be some complaining, but in my opinion, it would protect and verify team divisions and would weed out the Masters in the Open Team events which in the long run would increase the amount of players eligible for Masters teams and increase the amount of teams that enter that division if the BCAPL still wants to hold a Master Teams Division.
Thank you for reading, and there are great ideas within this thread and hope all goes well for next years event.
As you know Mark, the simple things make the difference, in reading your post this line jumped out., and is one Major reason
- just as long as they were league players and not player members
I would consider playing in this manner, and pay extra to sign up at your venue and NOT have to of played thru a league system. Only requirement, maybe to have been a league member one year, one time in you life, any league.
Then....
Have a state sign up area, and from that state/group have all the players communicate amongst ea other to pick a team or two.
Let the players in the state decide if they want to play together.
Been there done that is my attitude, this thou could be fun, and less costly then going to the dive bars and dealing with all the dysfunction that sometimes lurks. That is something I don't enjoy anymore and I choose to be away from those situations. Plus late nights nowadays with all the gang/tagging/shootings/BS, again ain't goin there.
Pool is supposed to be FUN, all the time.
- just as long as they were league players and not player members
I would consider playing in this manner, and pay extra to sign up at your venue and NOT have to of played thru a league system. Only requirement, maybe to have been a league member one year, one time in you life, any league.
Then....
Have a state sign up area, and from that state/group have all the players communicate amongst ea other to pick a team or two.
Let the players in the state decide if they want to play together.
Been there done that is my attitude, this thou could be fun, and less costly then going to the dive bars and dealing with all the dysfunction that sometimes lurks. That is something I don't enjoy anymore and I choose to be away from those situations. Plus late nights nowadays with all the gang/tagging/shootings/BS, again ain't goin there.
Pool is supposed to be FUN, all the time.
Shaka
Registered
Perhaps the new Advanced division absorbed the intended Master entries. Might not have been a loss of entries but just a shift.
For the previous years what were the number of OPEN team and Master team entries?
And for this year what were the number of OPEN team and combined Advanced/Master team entries?
Also I would venture that local leagues don't have 3 member teams so how do you build a team locally to win a trip but can only send half the members to Nationals.
For the previous years what were the number of OPEN team and Master team entries?
And for this year what were the number of OPEN team and combined Advanced/Master team entries?
Also I would venture that local leagues don't have 3 member teams so how do you build a team locally to win a trip but can only send half the members to Nationals.
People suck!
Way too many generalizations about master level players in this thread to all be true.
The advent of the intermediate (oops, advanced) division killed the masters team event. Such a shame too, some of my fondest memories are from playing in that event.
In politics, it's called redistricting. Master players are used to being on the wrong side of this (and with no power whatsoever). So when it happened yet again in 2010, I believe many of them spoke with their pocketbook. And yes, contrary to popular opinion, some of us have jobs and a little money in the bank.
Add to the above the albatross of having the event at the Riviera. Unarguably the most inhospitable staff in all of Vegas and you can see why some players (myself included) felt unwelcome at your tournament this year.
It's intuitively obvious to the casual observer any new divisions are created to increase the drop. Fair enough, but in the down economy do you really think expansion was a wise business model ? Makes me think your original question in this thread was rhetorical.
The advent of the intermediate (oops, advanced) division killed the masters team event. Such a shame too, some of my fondest memories are from playing in that event.
In politics, it's called redistricting. Master players are used to being on the wrong side of this (and with no power whatsoever). So when it happened yet again in 2010, I believe many of them spoke with their pocketbook. And yes, contrary to popular opinion, some of us have jobs and a little money in the bank.
Add to the above the albatross of having the event at the Riviera. Unarguably the most inhospitable staff in all of Vegas and you can see why some players (myself included) felt unwelcome at your tournament this year.
It's intuitively obvious to the casual observer any new divisions are created to increase the drop. Fair enough, but in the down economy do you really think expansion was a wise business model ? Makes me think your original question in this thread was rhetorical.
Mark - for St Louis this year, it came down to basically economics. Like others said, to field a team and have expenses of $1000 a person with a chance to win $7K - $8K total doesn't compute. Plus, with players having to play in Grand Master divisions for the singles against basically pros, makes it harder for a Master team player to make money on the other end as well.
Are there results for the Open 9 Ball posted somewhere?
Are there results for the Open 9 Ball posted somewhere?
I will guess but is not MASTER the Older Generation, and many are on Fixed Incomes, plus even if say you drive to Las Vegas from any where it will cost you about $.50/Mile to operate your Car, Truck, or SUV in REAL DOLLAR & Cents. That is an amount under the IRS allowable for a Vehicle Business deduction.
Than on to of that you have Hotels, or Motel, Food, Entree Fee, Coins into the Bar Boxes, and maybe a Drink or two of bottled Water?
Recession is effecting many very bad, and other are doing well. I just got an E-mail Alert from Caesars in Las Vegas this am with CHEAP ROOMS. The Cheap room is IMHO only the tip of the ICE BURG.
I do not know weather total number of Player at the BCAPL is up or down from last year, or how individual Vendor Did, but Some Vendors who use to make the Trip to Sin City stayed away this year.
As I said in another thread Pool in the Valley of the Sun is not what it was 4 or 5 years ago, it is hurting, and in the last 180, over 100 small bars have gone under many with a pool table or two.
I highlighted your first statement. "Master" is a great pool player, it has nothing to do with age.
If you would get out from under your rock and play a few tournaments, maybe you would know these terms.
I saw plenty of Open players, there were over 800 open teams, over 1300 open singles and 338 open scotch teams.
I'm guessing the Master players either played in the Grand Masters or blended into a Advanced team somewhere?
Mark, I don't know what could be done to get more Masters into playing. I really thought that lowering the team to 3 players would make it easier to get a team. It seemed to have the opposite affect.
I know many players that got moved down from Master to Advanced and most of them formed on a team with Open players or gave it a shot in the Advanced Division.
After reading all the good posts in this thread I think it just makes sense to not have a Masters Team Event at all. Having 2 large team events (Open, Advanced) is perfect IMO.
Taking the Master and Grand Master away from being in the OPEN Division was a great move. And I even like the idea of maybe not allowing Advanced Players in the OPEN either.
Having a 4 person Advanced Team that allows a Master (maybe Grand Master) on it seems very exciting as well.
I know when I become an Advanced Player, I would be more than happy to get on a team full of Advanced Players (from my entire state) and give it a shot.
RLSwint
BCAPL League Operator
Hi Mark,
I like the idea of having a Masters Singles Event. In the advanced team event allow 2 Masters per 5 person team or 1 Grand Master per team. Hopefully allowing them to play in a team event, that will get them there. This would accomidate both type of Master players, ones that play league with teams and ones that are only interested in singles. Plus playing in 2 + events would give them more of a chance to cash enough money to warrent them making the trip. Just my .02
Thanks
Robin Swint
I like the idea of having a Masters Singles Event. In the advanced team event allow 2 Masters per 5 person team or 1 Grand Master per team. Hopefully allowing them to play in a team event, that will get them there. This would accomidate both type of Master players, ones that play league with teams and ones that are only interested in singles. Plus playing in 2 + events would give them more of a chance to cash enough money to warrent them making the trip. Just my .02
Thanks
Robin Swint
yeah I agree here. Many of us have no clue whatsoever why you continue to hold the tournament at the Riv. It's an absolute dump and getting worse every year, yet somehow the prices keep going up. The time has long passed for the BCA to find a new venue.
The Chipsta
Registered
The APA masters is drawing 192 teams at 3-4 players per team. I don't think that existed 10 years ago. Many of the players in that tournament were playing BCA masters before switching (some still do both).
With the APA field growing so much it causes some problems for other leagues:
There is other competition including SBE, Derby City, and all of the Regional tours. Once you have a tournament that is played on weekdays or involves travel, you will limit some players.
Most of the guys in my area that went out this year did not realize the changes that occurred to the Masters/advanced. Most did not care. I do think that trying to run Open, Advanced, Masters, and Grand Master divisions is not going to work. There will always be guys in the Open division that could compete well in any of the divisions, but once they are identified you have to decide where to put them. I have not been to the BCA event in 10 years, but my memory was only 2 divisions - Open and Masters. The masters was for all the top finishers from previous years and it forced growth because every year you had more players tagged as not being able to play in the Open division.
I hope you fix it because I am planning to attend next year. The biggest advantage the BCA has is that anyone can attend without qualifying, so I can plan that as my vacation week of pool. It is just too difficult to wait until late June to find out if you are qualified to attend the APA event in August.
With the APA field growing so much it causes some problems for other leagues:
People with jobs have 2-4 weeks of vacation every year. You can't attend them all.
There is a cost involved and this prohibits multiple trips.
In my area we have an APA Master's league. That means we have to go to 3-5 different weekend tournaments to earn our spot in Vegas, which is also paid for by qualifying. I can't dedicate any more time to pool when I have a family at home.
There is other competition including SBE, Derby City, and all of the Regional tours. Once you have a tournament that is played on weekdays or involves travel, you will limit some players.
Most of the guys in my area that went out this year did not realize the changes that occurred to the Masters/advanced. Most did not care. I do think that trying to run Open, Advanced, Masters, and Grand Master divisions is not going to work. There will always be guys in the Open division that could compete well in any of the divisions, but once they are identified you have to decide where to put them. I have not been to the BCA event in 10 years, but my memory was only 2 divisions - Open and Masters. The masters was for all the top finishers from previous years and it forced growth because every year you had more players tagged as not being able to play in the Open division.
I hope you fix it because I am planning to attend next year. The biggest advantage the BCA has is that anyone can attend without qualifying, so I can plan that as my vacation week of pool. It is just too difficult to wait until late June to find out if you are qualified to attend the APA event in August.
Mark
BCAPL and for that matter the VNEA lacks an effective way to rate individuals. The APA comes some what close but they as well are missing some key factors.
Currently BCAPL and the VNEA uses three methos to move individual's / Team's to upper divisions.
1. Individuals - how high they place in sactioned singles tournaments.
2. Teams - how high they place in sactioned team tournaments.
3. Known abilities.
Each one of these methods have major flaws.
The APA tracks innings and wins and this gets close but the missing piece is how do you compare a league from one location (lets say Memphis, TN) to another location (lets say Columbus, OH). You of course must factor in SANDBAGGING.
What is needed is a system that can rate a person's ability to play. Something like what GOLF has and for that matter CHESS. But for pool you would also might need to factor in their equipment.
And certain rules should apply.
It is kind of 'FUNNY' that we say our game is a GENTLEMEN's game. But, three fourths of a group is trying to figure out how to milk the system so they would get a bigger payout.
I believe you should do away with all the divisions except Open and Senior. and of course each for the womens as well. If someone plays better than someone else they should spot games.
I would be willing to spend some of my spare time to help you come up with a solution.
Thanks for the chance.
Michael Dunn
BCAPL and for that matter the VNEA lacks an effective way to rate individuals. The APA comes some what close but they as well are missing some key factors.
Currently BCAPL and the VNEA uses three methos to move individual's / Team's to upper divisions.
1. Individuals - how high they place in sactioned singles tournaments.
2. Teams - how high they place in sactioned team tournaments.
3. Known abilities.
Each one of these methods have major flaws.
The APA tracks innings and wins and this gets close but the missing piece is how do you compare a league from one location (lets say Memphis, TN) to another location (lets say Columbus, OH). You of course must factor in SANDBAGGING.
What is needed is a system that can rate a person's ability to play. Something like what GOLF has and for that matter CHESS. But for pool you would also might need to factor in their equipment.
And certain rules should apply.
It is kind of 'FUNNY' that we say our game is a GENTLEMEN's game. But, three fourths of a group is trying to figure out how to milk the system so they would get a bigger payout.
I believe you should do away with all the divisions except Open and Senior. and of course each for the womens as well. If someone plays better than someone else they should spot games.
I would be willing to spend some of my spare time to help you come up with a solution.
Thanks for the chance.
Michael Dunn
Masters teams
I appreciate a lot fo the comments.
Please keep them on point. This is not a discussion about the Riviera or any other location. It is easy to say 'you should move' but very difficult to achieve.
It is also feasible to implement a new scoring system. We are not comparing APA systems to BCAPL systems. They are NOT interchangeable.
This is only a very narrow topic and I think there have been several posts that have some good points.
This is not a new problem - this has been going on in almost every league for many years. If we can solve it we will and if we can't then the Master teams may go away. We cannot support a segment of the pool society if they will not support it themselves.
I also should point out that the Masters had always gotten a large amount of money added. The open divisions and others never got any money until around 2005 or 2006. At one point the masters were getting 3 for 1 on their entry fees and still would not really support the divisions. I do not subscribe to the opinion that masters 'are owed' a major part of the added money.
All we can try to do is to provide more options for more players. (Or, you can lead a horse to the water - you can't make him drink.)
Thaks for the opinions.
Mark Griffin
I appreciate a lot fo the comments.
Please keep them on point. This is not a discussion about the Riviera or any other location. It is easy to say 'you should move' but very difficult to achieve.
It is also feasible to implement a new scoring system. We are not comparing APA systems to BCAPL systems. They are NOT interchangeable.
This is only a very narrow topic and I think there have been several posts that have some good points.
This is not a new problem - this has been going on in almost every league for many years. If we can solve it we will and if we can't then the Master teams may go away. We cannot support a segment of the pool society if they will not support it themselves.
I also should point out that the Masters had always gotten a large amount of money added. The open divisions and others never got any money until around 2005 or 2006. At one point the masters were getting 3 for 1 on their entry fees and still would not really support the divisions. I do not subscribe to the opinion that masters 'are owed' a major part of the added money.
All we can try to do is to provide more options for more players. (Or, you can lead a horse to the water - you can't make him drink.)
Thaks for the opinions.
Mark Griffin