Was this shot intentional by SVB?

Well, he must have called the 10 ball because he raked all the balls immediately after the shot, and I doubt it was because he was conceding the game to Busty. If he didn't I'm sure Busty would have questioned it. 10 Ball isn't slop. Had he not called the 10 it would have backfired because Busty would have had the option to give the table back had he been hooked on the 4.

Also, it not only did it appear that SVB tapped the pocket, but then when he went up table to take a look at where he was going to contact the 4, he took a definite look back at the 10 ball, as though he was planning to go back after it.

He had to have called it.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Well, he must have called the 10 ball because he raked all the balls immediately after the shot, and I doubt it was because he was conceding the game to Busty. If he didn't I'm sure Busty would have questioned it. 10 Ball isn't slop. Had he not called the 10 it would have backfired because Busty would have had the option to give the table back had he been hooked on the 4.

Also, it not only did it appear that SVB tapped the pocket, but then when he went up table to take a look at where he was going to contact the 4, he took a definite look back at the 10 ball, as though he was planning to go back after it.

He had to have called it.
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If we know that they were playing call shot then of course he must have called the 10. Even so, calling it and playing it intentionally are not the same thing.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
Well, he must have called the 10 ball because he raked all the balls immediately after the shot, and I doubt it was because he was conceding the game to Busty. If he didn't I'm sure Busty would have questioned it. 10 Ball isn't slop. Had he not called the 10 it would have backfired because Busty would have had the option to give the table back had he been hooked on the 4.

Also, it not only did it appear that SVB tapped the pocket, but then when he went up table to take a look at where he was going to contact the 4, he took a definite look back at the 10 ball, as though he was planning to go back after it.
He had to have called it.
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I don't believe we are sure of the rules they are playing, do we?
ANd I'd say the look to the 10 was to see if CB could scratch and to get a sense of speed needed to put CB at other end.

Accident!:wink:
 
PoolBum said:
If we know that they were playing call shot then of course he must have called the 10. Even so, calling it and playing it intentionally are not the same thing.
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Black-Balled said:
I don't believe we are sure of the rules they are playing, do we?
ANd I'd say the look to the 10 was to see if CB could scratch and to get a sense of speed needed to put CB at other end.

Accident!:wink:
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You guys have a point. I've just not yet seen two pros matching up like this play slop 10 ball. Someone put out the bat signal for Helfert. He could shed some light on it.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
You guys have a point. I've just not yet seen two pros matching up like this play slop 10 ball. Someone put out the bat signal for Helfert. He could shed some light on it.
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I think the move to play call shot/ option to return is new-ish.

When 10b started replacing 9b, I don't recall it being played like today.
 
PoolBum said:
If we know that they were playing call shot then of course he must have called the 10. Even so, calling it and playing it intentionally are not the same thing.
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Good point! I just came back from the 10-ball tournament in Vegas where they would call the pocket if there was a remote chance that they might "slop" in the 10 ball even if it was 2 foot away. It was an interesting exercise of seeing what shot they envisioned might happen. So in this case if they were playing call shot, I then believe he played for the safety but called it just in case.
 
TorranceChris said:
Good point! I just came back from the 10-ball tournament in Vegas where they would call the pocket if there was a remote chance that they might "slop" in the 10 ball even if it was 2 foot away. It was an interesting exercise of seeing what shot they envisioned might happen. So in this case if they were playing call shot, I then believe he played for the safety but called it just in case.
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If calling the 10b has no negative consequesnnce, then that is not using the call-shot rule appropriately.

Call-shot means your shot accomplishes what you call: If you are kicking at a ball (other than the 10) and call the 10 also, failure to make the 10 would result in giving your opponent the opportunity to return the resultin shot.
 
Black-Balled said:
If calling the 10b has no negative consequesnnce, then that is not using the call-shot rule appropriately.

Call-shot means your shot accomplishes what you call: If you are kicking at a ball (other than the 10) and call the 10 also, failure to make the 10 would result in giving your opponent the opportunity to return the resultin shot.
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That's a good point too. I don't recall from the trip any opponent ever returning a shot unless a ball was made other than the called shot or an obvious shot or of course for a push. I would be curious to see what the rules in Vegas were regarding this.
 
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Black-Balled said:
I don't believe we are sure of the rules they are playing, do we?
ANd I'd say the look to the 10 was to see if CB could scratch and to get a sense of speed needed to put CB at other end.

Accident!:wink:
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Exactly!!! I really believe that a lot of people think pros like SVB Earl and Reyes are these ball pocketing monsters that plan everything!! They do everything on purpose all the time and not play shots that require a little luck. I could believe Reyes may try this type of shot but like mentioned earlier. The plan was to hide the cue ball and use the ten as a protective ball against a scratch.

Things could have been even worse if SVB hung it and didn't hide the cueball BUT.... he got lucky and made the ten and won the game...
 
I think it's kind of amazing that we've all watched the same video and yet we cannot quickly agree on what actually happened. There are several sets of rules for 10-ball floating around now and, as stated, some of these rule sets will make this early 10-ball a very undesireable shot.

If the incoming player MUST shoot when it's his turn, Shane can call the 10-ball and play safe at the same time.

If the incoming player has the option to pass on the shot unless a safety is called, Shane would have called safe since missing the 10-ball after calling it would have been a sell-out.


Honestly, I haven't followed the rise of 10-ball enough to know which rules are more widely accepted but I still find it amusing and troubling that there's so much confusion.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
I think it's kind of amazing that we've all watched the same video and yet we cannot quickly agree on what actually happened. There are several sets of rules for 10-ball floating around now and, as stated, some of these rule sets will make this early 10-ball a very undesireable shot.

If the incoming player MUST shoot when it's his turn, Shane can call the 10-ball and play safe at the same time.

If the incoming player has the option to pass on the shot unless a safety is called, Shane would have called safe since missing the 10-ball after calling it would have been a sell-out.


Honestly, I haven't followed the rise of 10-ball enough to know which rules are more widely accepted but I still find it amusing and troubling that there's so much confusion.
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The way the shot went down, unless SVB had flat out called a safety or had called the 10 ball Busty would have had the option to give it back in either of the two main ways 10 Ball is being played today, that is, either by WPA rules or by the rules played in some East Coast events, like the Predator/Tony Robles tournaments or the way the SBE was played the year before this last one (I believe the most recent SBE was played by WPA rules).
 
As far as I know, from watching the match, there was no call requirement. I strongly believe that Shane played a 2 way shot. He KNEW that if he didn't get safe (which, even if he didn't get behind the 10, wouldn't have left Francisco an offensive option), he would either bump the 10 or slop it in. 2 way shots come up very often, and a man with Shane's caliber knew this slop was a possibility. If he was required to call the 10, he would have made it more clear to Busty.

Skyscraper
 
Sent the link to Shane's FB so hopefully he'll chime in on here and give the real story...

Im still gonna say he went for the safe and not intended on making the 10 ball.
 
SkyscraperChris said:
To me, it seems that he was playing this shot. Jay Helfert says he thinks Shane was playing safe behind the 10, and I value his opinion highly. However, Shane had to have been playing the 10 at least as 2 way shot. There was no penalty if he was. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnvMEgioNVs
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Look at the video at 2:18. His left hand moves towards the corner pocket and moves back again quickly which could have been to indicate the pocket.

Though its dark, it looks like Bustamante is sitting at the top right hand corner of the screen. He would be in perfect position to see SVB's casual calling of the pocket.

In any case if he didn't call it you can bet Bustamante would have screamed and yelled as we've all seen occasionally when he believes a decision has gone against him. Remember Darryl Peach game.
 
mista335 said:
Look at the video at 2:18. His left hand moves towards the corner pocket and moves back again quickly which could have been to indicate the pocket.

Though its dark, it looks like Bustamante is sitting at the top right hand corner of the screen. He would be in perfect position to see SVB's casual calling of the pocket.

In any case if he didn't call it you can bet Bustamante would have screamed and yelled as we've all seen occasionally when he believes a decision has gone against him. Remember Darryl Peach game.
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But as has been discussed, there seems to be a question about whether they were playing call shot 10Ball.

I thought the same way you did but something else has occurred to me. Neither of the commentators questioned if it was a legal pot. Certainly Jay Helfert knows the rules of 10 Ball, so if they were playing call shot at the time, it would have come up in the booth. Instead the comment was, "Wow, looks like he was playing that shot." Obviously, if it they WERE playing call shot, then he must have called it.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
But as has been discussed, there seems to be a question about whether they were playing call shot 10Ball.

I thought the same way you did but something else has occurred to me. Neither of the commentators questioned if it was a legal pot. Certainly Jay Helfert knows the rules of 10 Ball, so if they were playing call shot at the time, it would have come up in the booth. Instead the comment was, "Wow, looks like he was playing that shot." Obviously, if it they WERE playing call shot, then he must have called it.
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I cut the video off right before Jay started questioning the validity of it. He says he believes Shane was playing safe and got lucky. Only Shane knows. Hopefully we will get his insight here. Where you at Shane?!
 
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