Do you use english on your break shots?

[Dan White]

Just curious... For a typical break shot from the side of the pack, do you use a little outside english, or shoot with no english? Some of the physics guys recommend no english (there are advantages to that, at least on paper) while the rest of the pool playing world puts a little outside english on those shots. I understand both arguments pretty well, I just wondered if anybody actually shot these break shots with no english.

 

[poolmouse]

Just curious... For a typical break shot from the side of the pack, do you use a little outside english, or shoot with no english? Some of the physics guys recommend no english (there are advantages to that, at least on paper) while the rest of the pool playing world puts a little outside english on those shots. I understand both arguments pretty well, I just wondered if anybody actually shot these break shots with no english.

Depends on the state of the cue ball once it hits the rack. If the cue is going to head to the wrong place, you may need english. If not, maybe no english is needed. It's more important to understand what the cue ball is going to do, where it's going to go, before deciding what english (if any) to use.

Personally, I don't like to use english on break shots...makes it easier to maintain control of the cue ball.

 

[Pushout]

All depends on the angle of the shot and where you want to put the stone afterward. Most of the better books on Straight Pool describe the english to put on the different angle shots.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Really depends, but the short answer is yes - sometimes. I'm certainly not opposed to the idea. :grin:

 

[Ratta]

Hi there,

if you re breaking *old-school* there are some breakshots which have to be played with english (to get to the middle of the table again using rails). If we are talking about the breaks like you shown up, where the breakballs is has its position near the rack and where you hit the 3rd/4th ball or between, it s just about yourself. If you play such a breakball with draw, like it is played usually (not always ) it makes no difference if you play it with right/hand or left/hand english. the english itself will take not additional affect-it will just take his path caused by the draw. So just train it and pocket it, like you prefer it.
Again: the use of english (left or right!) will take no effect to the tangent-line after contacting the object-ball. The CB will just follow it s way. (on a typical draw or stunshot of course).


Hope my english was good enough to explain it

have fun,

Ingo

 

[Vahmurka]

Hope my english was good enough to explain it

On my break shots I don't use English, I try to keep silent and focused (couldn't resist :grin-square

I use some outside ("helping") English sometimes to alter cue ball path after the contact with short rail. It is always combined with follow. So, if a break ball is on the left side of the pack and I need English, it is high right. High bends cue ball's path to avoid scratching in the corner, and side allows it to grab the cushion and roll parallel with long cushion to the center of the table rather than try to stick to the long cushion.

 

[14-1StraightMan]

English

Growing up in NY in the 60's and learning to play pool. When someone spoke of "English" it was only: Left or Right.
The tern Follow would be used for high center and then: High Left & High Right.
The tern for Draw was: Draw and Low Left or Low Right.
Then there was the Center.
I still think of all in the same way.


PS: nothing to add about all the above comments b/c they are all right on.

 

[mosconiac]

I use english on just about every break shot...like 99.9%. As said above, the english is used to move the CB once it hits a rail to optimize CB position post-break (get to a safe zone like the center of the table).

On occasion I use it to "spin off" the rack too (when the CB won't be contacting a rail)...to get to a safe zone like the center of the table.

EDIT: Like 14-1SM above, I am talking left/right not top/bottom.

 

[Winston846]

I wish I could diagram this with Cuetable, but for me it all depends on whether I'm above or below parallel with the break ball in relation to the side rail. Below parallel and I go into the pile with follow, and at or above parallel I use draw to pull the cue ball back out into the middle of the table.

Behind the pile I use extreme outside to go one rail and out. I know you're supposed to use inside and go 3 rails and out, but I always seem to get tied up with that. I seem to get better results with outside from behind the pile.

 

[3andstop]

Of course every break shot is different, but assuming the basic breakshot as asked, and disregarding situations that require you to re-direct the CB off the rail after contact with the rack, for me, the steeper the angle the less likely I am to use sidespin. The flatter the angle, the more likely I'll use some outside which helps increase the angle by enabling you to hit the OB fuller and throw it into the pocket.

In either case I find it very easy to pound them into the rail. :embarrassed2:

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Of course every break shot is different, but assuming the basic breakshot as asked, and disregarding situations that require you to re-direct the CB off the rail after contact with the rack, for me, the steeper the angle the less likely I am to use sidespin. The flatter the angle, the more likely I'll use some outside which helps increase the angle by enabling you to hit the OB fuller and throw it into the pocket.

In either case I find it very easy to pound them into the rail. :embarrassed2:

Could you expand on this? The way I see it, wouldn't the use of inside increase the angle, creating a thinner (not fuller) cut? This way the cue ball would retain more energy with which to collide with the pile. I'm probably not understanding something.

Thanks.

 

[mosconiac]

Behind the pile I use extreme outside to go one rail and out. I know you're supposed to use inside and go 3 rails and out, but I always seem to get tied up with that. I seem to get better results with outside from behind the pile.

That happens when: 1) you are contacting more of the center of the rack, 2) you let up on your stroke.

CueTable Help

 

[Winston846]

That happens when: 1) you are contacting more of the center of the rack, 2) you let up on your stroke.

Unfortunately, I can't see CueTable diagrams.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=228076

 

[sfleinen]

Unfortunately, I can't see CueTable diagrams.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=228076

Lance:

I hope you don't mind my taking the liberty to do so, but here you go (attached as a .PNG file). Mosconiac's info about behind-the-rack break shots is right-on -- notice the important point about where the break ball is located in relation to the center of the bottom of the rack. The further-in (closer to the opposing cushion) it is, the more the inside-english / 3-rails-and-out approach works. These shots are among my favorites, because of the yield I get. Yes, you *do* have to have a very accurate stroke with power, but when you execute the breakshot as shown in view #3 of 3, the yield you get is very, very good because you're pushing the balls towards open space on the table (rather than towards cushions that are nearby / creating clustering), and the cue ball is going to the center of the table. I practice these often, and when executed correctly, get "Marianas Turkey Shoots" out of them with minimal clustering.

Hope this helps,
-Sean

 

[3andstop]

Could you expand on this? The way I see it, wouldn't the use of inside increase the angle, creating a thinner (not fuller) cut? This way the cue ball would retain more energy with which to collide with the pile. I'm probably not understanding something.

Thanks.

I really did state that completely different than what I was trying to say. I actually had two separate thoughts going on. Ah, age has it's way.

Anyway, what I meant was, in situations where the OB is low and you can just miss the rack with draw, adding outside to the shot will allow you to hit the OB fatter (more on it's left side) and change the tangent line to catch the bottom ball by throwing the OB into the pocket. Sorry about that.

 

[Winston846]

Lance:

I hope you don't mind my taking the liberty to do so, but here you go (attached as a .PNG file). Mosconiac's info about behind-the-rack break shots is right-on -- notice the important point about where the break ball is located in relation to the center of the bottom of the rack. The further-in (closer to the opposing cushion) it is, the more the inside-english / 3-rails-and-out approach works. These shots are among my favorites, because of the yield I get. Yes, you *do* have to have a very accurate stroke with power, but when you execute the breakshot as shown in view #3 of 3, the yield you get is very, very good because you're pushing the balls towards open space on the table (rather than towards cushions that are nearby / creating clustering), and the cue ball is going to the center of the table. I practice these often, and when executed correctly, get "Marianas Turkey Shoots" out of them with minimal clustering.

Hope this helps,
-Sean

Thanks, Sean. I can see that picture. #3 is the ideal turnout, but I always end up with #1. I don't let up on my stroke, I just don't stroke it hard enough. You're saying an "accurate stroke with power" and all the videos I've ever watched preached a "medium" stroke for this shot. I guess my stroke just wasn't "medium" enough. Thanks for the insight, guys. I'll have to practice this shot now.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Great post, Sean.

I hope Joe Tucker reads this thread. He has tremendous insight on this topic as well. Not only does it matter where you want to go, but which "part" of the ball you're hitting on the rack.

So, sometimes it's required unless you want bad things to happen.

 

[sfleinen]

Thanks, Sean. I can see that picture. #3 is the ideal turnout, but I always end up with #1. I don't let up on my stroke, I just don't stroke it hard enough. You're saying an "accurate stroke with power" and all the videos I've ever watched preached a "medium" stroke for this shot. I guess my stroke just wasn't "medium" enough. Thanks for the insight, guys. I'll have to practice this shot now.

Actually, the videos may be a bit deceiving. You do have to hit this with a good pop. Not break-speed, of course, but think of the same amount of power that you'd use to get a full diagonal-table-length draw from an object ball in the jaws of a corner pocket, with the cue ball two feet away from it, trying to draw the cue ball into the diagonally-opposite corner pocket. That's about the approximate amount of power, because the cue ball is going to lose a lot of its energy first off the object ball, then caroming off the last two balls in the last row of the rack, and then spinning out 3 rails to the center of the table.

A very good example of this break shot is in Efren's 123-ball run against Jim Rempe in the 1995 Maine Event. (Methinks this match may even be up on YouTube, if my memory serves correctly?)

-Sean

 

[sfleinen]

Pat Fleming's "Creative Edge"

Just curious... For a typical break shot from the side of the pack, do you use a little outside english, or shoot with no english? Some of the physics guys recommend no english (there are advantages to that, at least on paper) while the rest of the pool playing world puts a little outside english on those shots. I understand both arguments pretty well, I just wondered if anybody actually shot these break shots with no english.

Dan:

Looks like you got a lot of great answers!

FYI, there's a really cool video in Accu-Stats collection, called "Pat Fleming's Creative Edge". Obviously, the video discusses a lot more than just straight pool, but the pointers he offers about straight pool in particular directly address your "to spin or not to spin" question.

The snippet in question is viewable on YouTube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2iaEWtZOPSY

Pat starts right out with 14.1 break shots, both on the side as well as behind the rack, and which spin to use. He demonstrates for each situation.

It's a great video, and one that you'll be referring to again and again in your collection.

Hope this is helpful,
-Sean

 

[Dan White]

I guess what I was looking for was opinions on whether you use outside english when all else is equal. If you are not looking to spin the cue ball one way or the other off a rail, do you still use outside english? Consider the situation where you are not on a break shot, but you have a similar cut shot. Assuming position isn't critical, do you favor using a little outside english to "help" the ball go in, or do you use follow only, or draw only? Or, say you are shooting the 9 ball for the win and you don't need position. Do you throw a little outside on it?

If I have an object ball a half inch off the side rail about 2 diamonds from the corner pocket, and the cue ball is at an angle, I'm pretty much automatically going to put a little low outside on the shot, unless I can't make position that way. It does seem to "throw" the ball in the pocket more easily, but that could just be the way I got used to shooting those shots. I don't put english on my break shots, but it's really no different, so I'm starting to put a little outside to see how it goes.