Customs Cue Vs Production Cue...which one? Pros & Cons?

Jive

Jive

Professional Racker
Silver Member
I got my first real cue not too long ago(i didn't consider my first Lucasi <$150 my real cue), a Predator SP8 + Z2, serves me well but i know it's not gonna be my only cue for long... getting your first cue is like getting your first tattoo...it takes a while to consider to take the leap of faith and when you do you'll NEVER stop at one...

I know this will stir quite some debate but it's itching inside me to ask this question...'cos eventually i'll be after my next cue and who do i turn to for it...

Who makes a better cue, Exclusive custom cue makers OR production brands such as Schon, Predator, OB Cues, McDermott, J.Pechauer, Joss, Mezz....
I know people are starting to throw stones at this point but hear me out, i understand that many factors determine a good cue, the right timber is used, joint, shaft, ferrule, tip, weight and importantly individual playing style(and skill). So it's subjective. And production houses make some bespoke or SE runs for some custom cues as well. So some might argue it's like comparing BMW to Mercedes, Ford to Chevy, Ferrari to Lambo....i get it, i totally do but thats not my real point.

Let's take for instance Mezz or Predator, these guys make good cues. Expensive cues. They are highly profitable, and to stay at the top their game they do sponsorship, deals, endorsements...but also i believe they can spend more on R&D. Logically speaking they have more people(might not be better ones) for engineering and have bigger budgets for them. However can Custom cue makers do the same? Do/Can they set aside a budget to do the same to stay that forward? Or is cue making that straight forward that there's really not much technological advancement that can be incorporated or adopted? Or if any, it's completely redundant?
Let's talk car terms, custom rides are fabulous...they're bespoke and you get what you dream of...when you drive them you feel like a super hero cos it's something you've always wanted. We've got Hot Rods custom builders, we've got old model remakes, loads of custom car companies out there that'll do what you want them to..
Then there's Ferraris and BMWs...yes they are mainstream Production car brands but because they are making tonnes of money they can put those money into engineering development and all that crap to stay at the top of their game. I say crap but they're bloody fantastic, just see how well cars handle these days as compared to back then, how safe, how well they corner, obviously we also have this horsepower shit and this overated 0-100....all in the name of competition and development.

Many will argue the driving pleasure is NOT the same when you have a custom car built for you, I totally agree! And it's not the car it's the driver! I agree again! However cars are still very very important, even in today's F1 races...slight changes makes all these differences and many a time a driver is totally helpless 'cos he's at the mercy of his tool (Read: Michael Schumacher in 2011 F1)...

Also in driving terms, it all boils down to which car can go round a lap fastest and easiest...the ultimate measurement is to see which cue can edge out in a competition. I know...there's TOO many factors, but let's keep this debate between whether technological advancement can help make a better tool and if so will it make Production brands better?

Then there's the manufacturing aspect, some custom cue makers i come across swears by not using high tech machineries...personally i find that a little self centered... fact is machines though lack soul, are the most accurate way to work in manufacturing. I can't imagine if a swiss watch maker came out and said that they don't use any high tech machineries or at least CNC machines...Assembly wise it's definitely done by hand, thats where a true watch maker excels, assembling the most complicated complications like tourbilion or repeaters... in the same sense, it's great to see a custom cue makers involving high tech machineries to make their cues cos only when their tools are right, materials are right can they make good cues.

It may appear from this post that i'm leaning towards big brands, i'm seriously not. Infact right after i bought my SP8 i learnt about this forum...and seeing how some Custom SP looks...dam i felt like i invested in the wrong cue...but my cue played well and i have no regrets now. Just that when i'm thinking about my next cue i can't help but wonder who do i turn to? My heart is go custom, the one that you dream and love but my brain says otherwise...my brain could be wrong...thats what my gf says all the time..

I know there are many cue makers here, it's not my intention to diss them or undermine their ability, seriously am not, but because i come from a manufacturing background as well i can't help but think in this manner..
 
It's simple

if you did a blind test, the vast majority of shooters would be very happy with a quality house cue with a quality tip on it.

SLIM
 
If you post this in the main forum you will get a lot more responses. Also you will ignite a firestorm. this wiill be fun.
My honest opinion is that good production cues follow a set way of making a cue and from cue to cue each brand will play consistant. Now a lot of custom cue makers cues will vary from cue to cue. And what a lot of custom cue owners will not admit is that some custom cues do not play well.
 
High end production cues are the safest way to go. Good quality control, very well made, last a long time, plus a new perfectly matched shaft is just a phone call/online order away. You'll see a lot of pros using either an old Schon or perhaps a Mezz, quite a few Predators, etc., half with LD after market shafts, half with stock shafts. IIRC SVB used to play with an old Schon and a Joss shaft, then got sponsored; Johnny Archer played his best pool with a top model Schon; Mike Sigel and Nick Varner used to play with Joss cues (sponsored)...what I haven't seen in a long time (probably since the 70s or 80s) is a top pro playing with a so-called high end custom; just a Szambotti once in a blue moon (didn't Rodney Morris have one once?) or a Tascarella ( I think Ginky had one once, but don't know of any others, could be wrong on all counts). I saw a lot of Joss Wests, Richard Blacks and even the occasional Scruggs back in the 80s, but a lot of pros were playing with Palmers, Meucci, and even some McDermott C models.

Lately, I've seen a lot of unsponsored pros playing with fairly plain customs...in most cases, they worked pretty hard with the maker to get it just right.

I've had two customs over the years, one was second hand (not built for me) the other was. Both were great, but the one I designed and had made for me turned out best. You really need to know EXACTLY what you want; if you order a custom from somebody just because everybody says they hit great, you're even money to be disappointed. Just look how many customs get resold three or four times here on AZBilliards...and I'm not talking about cue flippers doing this for cash, but guys looking for players that they end up selling a month after they get it. Not that they're lemons, just a different hit than the buyer expected. If you know how you want the cue constructed (full splice, half splice, merry widow, weighted, cored, not cored, maple forearm vs. ebony, joint type and material, taper, length, balance, ferrule material, and on and on, then you're only half way there. Then you've got to find a builder who will put it together, allowing you to test a few out with similar configurations to see similar cues he makes. Anything else is a gamble. Plenty of guys have paid big money for SW, Tascarellas, Szams, etc, and been disappointed. Seems like customs sell best regionally, where players get exposed to them, try them out and like them. I grew up in TX and Black was the cue to have. If I'd grown up in California, then I'd probably see very few Blacks, and might have lusted after something else.

You can always find out how a Schon or Mezz or Pechauer or whatever hits and buy one just like it.
 
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West Point 1987 said:
High end production cues are the safest way to go. Good quality control, very well made, last a long time, plus a new perfectly matched shaft is just a phone call/online order away. You'll see a lot of pros using either an old Schon or perhaps a Mezz, quite a few Predators, etc., half with LD after market shafts, half with stock shafts. IIRC SVB used to play with an old Schon and a Joss shaft, then got sponsored; Johnny Archer played his best pool with a top model Schon; Mike Sigel and Nick Varner used to play with Joss cues (sponsored)...what I haven't seen in a long time (probably since the 70s or 80s) is a top pro playing with a so-called high end custom; just a Szambotti once in a blue moon (didn't Rodney Morris have one once?) or a Tascarella ( I think Ginky had one once, but don't know of any others, could be wrong on all counts). I saw a lot of Joss Wests, Richard Blacks and even the occasional Scruggs back in the 80s, but a lot of pros were playing with Palmers, Meucci, and even some McDermott C models.

Lately, I've seen a lot of unsponsored pros playing with fairly plain customs...in most cases, they worked pretty hard with the maker to get it just right.

I've had two customs over the years, one was second hand (not built for me) the other was. Both were great, but the one I designed and had made for me turned out best. You really need to know EXACTLY what you want; if you order a custom from somebody just because everybody says they hit great, you're even money to be disappointed. Just look how many customs get resold three or four times here on AZBilliards...and I'm not talking about cue flippers doing this for cash, but guys looking for players that they end up selling a month after they get it. Not that they're lemons, just a different hit than the buyer expected. If you know how you want the cue constructed (full splice, half splice, merry widow, weighted, cored, not cored, maple forearm vs. ebony, joint type and material, taper, length, balance, ferrule material, and on and on, then you're only half way there. Then you've got to find a builder who will put it together, allowing you to test a few out with similar configurations to see similar cues he makes. Anything else is a gamble. Plenty of guys have paid big money for SW, Tascarellas, Szams, etc, and been disappointed. Seems like customs sell best regionally, where players get exposed to them, try them out and like them. I grew up in TX and Black was the cue to have. If I'd grown up in California, then I'd probably see very few Blacks, and might have lusted after something else.

You can always find out how a Schon or Mezz or Pechauer or whatever hits and buy one just like it.
Click to expand...

Pretty much what I was thinking in my above post but he said it much better. Good advice.
 
slim,
Totally agree, cos like i mentioned i'm a stronger believe of driver not the car, indian not the arrow. That said, I'm sure a pro would be happy with a good house cue on say a kamui black(personal fav.). Thats not to say he wouldn't yearn for a better cue cos he/she might find it more of a stretch with the house cue and it would aid his game if he had a better cue.
Anyway my arguement isn't so much of how good a player is determining the game(that's a fact), it's more of production cue vs custom cue. Unless what your driving at is that they're both the same, no one has any engineering, technological or manufacturing edge over another. Which could be true as well, 'cos its always said that it's the amount of inlays that drives the cue prices up...

measureman & westpoint,
i guess we're on the same page here, however i'm waiting on some cue makers to pop in and correct us. I noticed that westpoint is playing with a carolina custom, so how does that fare against your past cues such as your schon, joss or mcdermott? I'm assuming based on your post that your carolina was made based on your expectations and specced to how you play best? In terms of quality and playability anything? Are u on stock carolina shaft or did you change to predator or ob shafts?

Perhaps it's a good idea to move this to the main forum...but i've got no idea how to do that, and if i'm not wrong only moderators can do it? That's unless i do a repost there..

like i said i really don't want to stir stuff...i'm here to help me decide on my next cue...i saw a post here with pictures of all the custom sneaky's and dam...been drooling...existing SPs from production brands don't appeal to me that much, not because they're not bespoke but their design don't appeal to me. I know i'm being shallow but back to my point...can customs make as good of cues as higher end production brands?
 
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jive said:
slim,
Totally agree, cos like i mentioned i'm a stronger believe of driver not the car, indian not the arrow. That said, I'm sure a pro would be happy with a good house cue on say a kamui black(personal fav.). Thats not to say he wouldn't yearn for a better cue cos he/she might find it more of a stretch with the house cue and it would aid his game if he had a better cue.
Anyway my arguement isn't so much of how good a player is determining the game(that's a fact), it's more of production cue vs custom cue. Unless what your driving at is that they're both the same, no one has any engineering, technological or manufacturing edge over another. Which could be true as well, 'cos its always said that it's the amount of inlays that drives the cue prices up...

measureman & westpoint,
i guess we're on the same page here, however i'm waiting on some cue makers to pop in and correct us. I noticed that westpoint is playing with a carolina custom, so how does that fare against your past cues such as your schon, joss or mcdermott? I'm assuming based on your post that your carolina was made based on your expectations and specced to how you play best? In terms of quality and playability anything? Are u on stock carolina shaft or did you change to predator or ob shafts?

Perhaps it's a good idea to move this to the main forum...but i've got no idea how to do that, and if i'm not wrong only moderators can do it? That's unless i do a repost there..

like i said i really don't want to stir stuff...i'm here to help me decide on my next cue...i saw a post here with pictures of all the custom sneaky's and dam...been drooling...existing SPs from production brands don't appeal to me that much, not because they're not bespoke but their design don't appeal to me. I know i'm being shallow but back to my point...can customs make as good of cues as higher end production brands?
Click to expand...

Yes-there are a lot of good custom cue makers that can make a cue as good and often better then a high end production cue. But the high end production cues are more consistent in how they feel and hit. Schons will all be about the same. So will Mezz-Joss-Pechauer all be the same as to there own particular feel because each one is made the same. Custom cues even by the same maker can vary in how they are made. And I have hit with a ton of cues both production and custom.Some custom cues felt great and some felt like duds.Most were not worth the extra money over a good production cue only based on how they played.
So to sum up if you want a good solid cue get a high end production cue. If you want something that is a one off made just for you get a custom.
 
SLIM said:
if you did a blind test, the vast majority of shooters would be very happy with a quality house cue with a quality tip on it.

SLIM
Click to expand...

i wouldn't. i've only used 2 house cues in my entire life that i could play well with.
 
jive said:
measureman & westpoint,
i guess we're on the same page here, however i'm waiting on some cue makers to pop in and correct us. I noticed that westpoint is playing with a carolina custom, so how does that fare against your past cues such as your schon, joss or mcdermott? I'm assuming based on your post that your carolina was made based on your expectations and specced to how you play best? In terms of quality and playability anything? Are u on stock carolina shaft or did you change to predator or ob shafts?
Click to expand...

Yes, my CC was designed by me, to specs/build/materials that I thought long and hard about. I then went to thier shop and tried several out...found out that a flat-faced ivory joint was not my cup of tea (I wanted one basically for looks, but don't like the feel, so I dodged disappointment right there). Went with my favorite 5/16 x 14 SS joint. My Carolina hits very close to the Joss J15 I had that was stolen; they're the only two cues I've owned with ivory ferrules, so that tells you something there. Just a little softer than my Schon. I play with both stock shafts that came with it; I personally hate LD shafts, they feel dead to me. The feedback (vibration/sound) of the Carolina is almost the same as my GEM...that makes sense since they're both half-splice, both 60 inches, which I prefer over all the others I've owned. The Carolina is the most "accurate" cue I've ever used...that is sort of a hip-shoot way of saying very low deflection, but also seems to fit my playing style/stroke so I find my stroke much straighter/smoother. I personally like Carolinas, especially the half spliced cues. If you're going for a Merry Widow, they do a great job and work closely with you...plus their average wait time is only 3-4 months. But they're a LOT of good custom makers out there and you can see some awesome sneeky petes and merry widows for very reasonable prices.
 
Many good responses.
At the end it all just depends what YOU expect from a cue. Like already shown up, the most important (and imo the hardest, lol) is to know, what you really want. A good player can shoot with any cue on the planet on a high-level as long as it s almost straight and the tip is good :-)

Further there are some excellent brands with production-cues. Mezz, Pechauer and Schon do excellent work. Also it depends on your own knowledge to be sure about the cue you want to own. only if you re sure about it, you can contact a good custom-maker and tell him what he should build for you.

And if you re really just talking about the playing-ability.....-atm i own a Bob Frey Sneaky with an excellent Shaft from a new Cuemaker from Austria-and it plays awesome. And i definitly know, that i wouldn t reach a higher level with a Black-Boar or Tascarella :-)
but anyway i m trying to get a cue i saw a few weeks ago, because it touched me right atm i saw it the first time. It s just about your personal feelings.

See it, Take it, Test it-- that s the whole voodoo. (and stay with it!!!)

lg from overseas,

Ingo
 
technological difference?

I see many good replies and just as i suspected, most of the replies discussed the consistency of quality by larger production brands. Just surprise no custom cue maker stepping in to discuss this.
I agree that customs allows you to make a good cue you desire provided you know what you want, but what i'm really interested in knowing is whether there's any advantage when we consider technological advancements that production cue makers can introduce.
Or is it safe to say that there's not much more engineering advancement we can get out of making cues? That it's built this way with these materials and that's pretty much it? That all those tech or "new" development that bigger brands speak of are just marketing talk?

Let's take a basic sneaky pete, every major brand has one and custom makers all do them. And going through the forum, it's safe to say this is the only kind of cue with where pricing gets competitive across the board and some customs are actually cheaper when compared to say a Predator SP4 or SP8. With Predator's strong marketing and still debatable technological advancement, would that make Predator's SP a better choice over customs when we're talking about the same price level?
 
West Point 1987 said:
High end production cues are the safest way to go. Good quality control, very well made, last a long time, plus a new perfectly matched shaft is just a phone call/online order away. You'll see a lot of pros using either an old Schon or perhaps a Mezz, quite a few Predators, etc., half with LD after market shafts, half with stock shafts. IIRC SVB used to play with an old Schon and a Joss shaft, then got sponsored; Johnny Archer played his best pool with a top model Schon; Mike Sigel and Nick Varner used to play with Joss cues (sponsored)...what I haven't seen in a long time (probably since the 70s or 80s) is a top pro playing with a so-called high end custom; just a Szambotti once in a blue moon (didn't Rodney Morris have one once?) or a Tascarella ( I think Ginky had one once, but don't know of any others, could be wrong on all counts). I saw a lot of Joss Wests, Richard Blacks and even the occasional Scruggs back in the 80s, but a lot of pros were playing with Palmers, Meucci, and even some McDermott C models.

Lately, I've seen a lot of unsponsored pros playing with fairly plain customs...in most cases, they worked pretty hard with the maker to get it just right.

I've had two customs over the years, one was second hand (not built for me) the other was. Both were great, but the one I designed and had made for me turned out best. You really need to know EXACTLY what you want; if you order a custom from somebody just because everybody says they hit great, you're even money to be disappointed. Just look how many customs get resold three or four times here on AZBilliards...and I'm not talking about cue flippers doing this for cash, but guys looking for players that they end up selling a month after they get it. Not that they're lemons, just a different hit than the buyer expected. If you know how you want the cue constructed (full splice, half splice, merry widow, weighted, cored, not cored, maple forearm vs. ebony, joint type and material, taper, length, balance, ferrule material, and on and on, then you're only half way there. Then you've got to find a builder who will put it together, allowing you to test a few out with similar configurations to see similar cues he makes. Anything else is a gamble. Plenty of guys have paid big money for SW, Tascarellas, Szams, etc, and been disappointed. Seems like customs sell best regionally, where players get exposed to them, try them out and like them. I grew up in TX and Black was the cue to have. If I'd grown up in California, then I'd probably see very few Blacks, and might have lusted after something else.

You can always find out how a Schon or Mezz or Pechauer or whatever hits and buy one just like it.
Click to expand...

Good advice only if...

You find one and never plan on selling it....

You are not buying for possible resale....

You never offer it in trade....

Or you bought an 88 Hyundai Excel and understand this anology and are ok with it... :p

BTW pros play with what they are GIVEN and contracted to, 98% of the time. That's a poor reason to want to go production.

JV
 
classiccues said:
Good advice only if...

You find one and never plan on selling it....

You are not buying for possible resale....

You never offer it in trade....

Or you bought an 88 Hyundai Excel and understand this anology and are ok with it... :p

BTW pros play with what they are GIVEN and contracted to, 98% of the time. That's a poor reason to want to go production.

JV
Click to expand...

Exactly. Except for the McDermotts I've owned and the one stolen Joss, I still have every cue I've ever owned...and never plan to sell them. I only sold the McDermotts to a couple of friends who needed a break on a two piece cue and one to help finance my first Joss. Like my guns (I've got 19), I buy my cues to shoot with, picking them after LONG consideration for the qualities I want, never intending to resell them; and I still shoot with all of them. :grin:
 
West Point 1987 said:
Exactly. Except for the McDermotts I've owned and the one stolen Joss, I still have every cue I've ever owned...and never plan to sell them. I only sold the McDermotts to a couple of friends who needed a break on a two piece cue and one to help finance my first Joss. Like my guns (I've got 19), I buy my cues to shoot with, picking them after LONG consideration for the qualities I want, never intending to resell them; and I still shoot with all of them. :grin:
Click to expand...

I also made an assumption that when you said high end production cue you meant maker. Because quite frankly if you plunk down retail on a "Limited production" production cue, you're a nit.

If you are ready to pay 1000 or more for a cue there are a plethora of decent custom cues to choose from, as well as pre-owned custom cues. But for the cash restricted, there are very good cues for 3-500. I have two bar cues that fit the bill. One is a McDermott that was cut into a break jump, the other is a sleeper. It's an NFL cue that was rebuilt and reshafted and it's a true sneaky pete.

My Szamboti was 175.00 of course that's 1976 dollars... :D

JV
 
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Hi JV,

So base on what i'm reading I say your more of a buy from a good custom cue maker when possible kind of guy? So does that mean from your point if view those big brands supposed "high tech" stuff don't really work or mean much?

I'm just really trying to find out more..I'm very new to this forum and it's only after I came here that I realized that there's so many custom cue makers out there, and so many of you guys play with them. So it's puzzles me whether those production brands are after money from people like me?

So does it mean that if one has say 1k to spend on a cue he'd get a better one going custom than buying some beautiful limited runs from say macdermott, schon, pechauer or mezz?
 
im curious what everyone will say about my comment(s)

a mercedes is a top end "production" car company
a rolls royce is a more "custom limited production" company
big difference in price
similar a porsche to a ferrari

one thousand dollars isnt going to get you much in estheics in a custom cue
compared to one thousand dollars will get you more inlay design etc in a upper level offering from a production company
jmho
icbw

however the real question is which one will play better for you???
and are you interested in its aftermarket value down the road????
 
I think now we should know how much you want to spend.
My personal opinion is that under $800 production
over that I would look to a new custom or a used custom. What ever you do it will be a shot in the dark that you will like any cue.
I think the best advice would be to buy a Schon. They are the best production cues with a long track record of quaility. They have a reputation of playing as good as anything out there.
 
Hi bbb,

Yes there is a big price difference for the car companies you mentioned however they all are considered production car companies, with robot assembly and spray paints and they are produced down conveyor lines therefore backed with strong abilities to do R&D and with deep pockets to keep doing as well. Cos what sets a Rolls Royce and a Benz apart is really aesthetic and details to interior and importantly the name that has become synonymous to high end and luxury.
But what I'm really curious is whether Cue making has that kind of technological or engineering involvement. Because from what I've been reading it appears to be more of a butt design competition, where the more exotic and intricate it is the higher the price it warrants and that custom cues are all about that and that you can customize it however you want.
I dont know, perhaps it's a never ending argument and at the end of the day it is really a matter of who likes what.
 
OK I'm done with this thread. You have gotten some very good advice and you are over thinking this thing and you will wind up with brain damage. It's a pool cue and not a life changing decision.
Buy something and move along. If you don't like it,sell it and buy something differant. A lot of players go thru several cues untill they find the right one. Good luck in your quest for the perfect cue.
 
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