ABP boycotts Berhman's event

joelpope said:
I support the ABP and their stated mission as shown on their website. I also believe they need to acquire the same quality of management for their organization as the PGA has done. Again, the PGA is governed by the players, it is not MANAGED by the players.

Moreover, I would like to see someone like Mark G step up and provide his combination of love for the sport, energy, industry contacts and knowledge to assist the pros. Just imagine the quality and distribution of play if hundreds of pros could make a reasonable living playing full time.
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A little reading between the lines in this thread told me that more than likely Mark G helped them write that mission statement and that Mark G did step up and offer advice that they decided not to take.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.

I've left a message to confirm but the last that I heard, there was/is a player that was/is still unpaid from a few years ago and was threatened with never getting paid if they made it public that they were not paid.

I've gotten a good chuckle at just how naive some people are about the kind of person Barry is. I enjoy the event very much but I'm simply there as a spectator. I wouldn't want to be on the end of having to run & promote it and I wouldn't want to be on the players end of it either. You never know if you're going to get paid or not and if Barry is going to be nice to you or be a raging jerk to you.

I'm sitting on the fence with this one. I'm not a Barry fan but I also don't agree with the way the players have handled this. There are a lot of great players on that list but a lot of people don't realize that there are a lot of great players that are not on that list and if I remember correctly, the number of players reaches over 200 fairly consistently at the Open, does it not? The show will go on and I'll be there as usual to watch the great players that aren't on that list and I'll hope like heck that they get paid.
 
Just light Tom to see the negitive in everything, I would like to see you do ANYTHING for pool other then ***** like a little baby. Pool needs the players to stand up for them selves. And do something positive for the good of the sport.

What do they have to offer the US Open? How about the best players int he world who sell seats, and TV PPV. Thats what they have, they need to take hold of their own destiny as players of this game.

Just because you can't play and have no game dosn't mean you always have to piss in someones Cheerios.

Tom In Cincy said:
This has a familiar sound to it... same sounds as the org that started in 2003.

What does the ABP have to guarantee the US Open 9 Ball event?



And the first act is to boycott an event that offers prize money. We have to lose money first, then we can grow?

I would like to see the ABP start its own tour.
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I don't see a bunch of highschool dropouts making wise decisions for the future of pool. I'm not saying the pros are stupid, just not business savvy. Seeding tournaments, extending the races and whatever other stupid ideas they have about guaranteeing only the best players will cash will make sure all of the dead weight doesn't enter the tournaments.

Standing up for themselves is great. I just wish they would have done this about 5 years ago when the economy was strong because somebody else would have probably took over if Barry cancelled. I doubt anyone would take it on now and be able to put on an event even close to it or with as much payout.
 
CallShotCowboy said:
Just got this release, and thought I would share with the rest of you. Thoughts?





ABP Pro Players Not Attending the 2011 US Open 9-Ball Championship
From ABP General Attorney Dennis Walsh

Chicago, Illinois- It is with regret that the general professional body of the Association of Billiard Professionals will not be attending the 2011 US Open 9-Ball Championship promoted by Mr.Barry Behrman. Nor will these ABP pros attend the Masters 10-Ball or any event promoted by Mr.Behrman because of monies owed to players and lack of secure funds of prize money before each of his events.

One of the goals of the Association of Billiards Professionals is to provide a platform where touring professionals can pursue the sport they love as a full time career and achieve reasonable financial success. To that end discussions have been ongoing since last year with representatives of the US Open and representatives of the ABP.

Repeated attempts by the ABP organization to obtain guarantees that the prize money will be in place have been refused and ther

efore it is with regret that the Association and its members have decided to neither support nor attend the 2011 US Open 9-Ball Championship. Notwithstanding the Association’s deep respect for Barry Behrman for his contribution to pool these many years, the players simply cannot commit their time and their expenses for an uncertain payday.

"As a former US Open 9-Ball champion, it's painful to not be able to attend this year, as it is always great to play in it. However, the ABP and its goals are more important than my personal goals, and we need to start taking the necessary steps to pave the way for the future of the game and its up and coming stars."- Rodney Morris, ABP Board of Directors

"It is with sadness that I must withdraw from one of my favourite tournaments ever. In doing so, I hope the sacrifices we are making raises the standard of the elements that our beautiful sport lacks. The ABP's goals are to the benefit of the sport and to restore the confidence of cooperation between players, associations and promoters alike. I stand behind this vision fully. " - Mika Immonen, ABP Board of Directors and Two time US Open 9-Ball Champion.

"The US Open is the greatest and most prestigious event on American soil. I am truly sorry we cannot attend this event. But we have an obligation to protect all players now and in the future. I am hopeful in the future all things will be worked out so all players can participate in all great and safe tournaments." - Johnny Archer, President of the ABP.

Regardless if this is a BCA or WPA Sanctioned event, the following ABP Professional Players will not attend:


Johnny Archer USA
Mika Immonen FIN
Efren Reyes PHI
Francisco Bustamante PHI
Darren Appleton ENG
Shane Van Boening USA
Rodney Morris USA
Alex Pagulayan PHI
Dennis Orcullo PHI
Thorsten Hohmann GER
Lee Van Corteza PHI
John Schmidt USA
Corey Deuel USA
Huidji See NED
Mike Sigel USA
Nick Varner USA
Buddy Hall USA
CJ Wiley USA
Tony Drago MLT
Raj Hundal ENG
Karl Boyes ENG
Imran Majid ENG
Marcus Chamat SWE
Roberto Gomez PHI
Carlo Biado PHI
Warren Kiamco PHI
Antonio Lining PHI
Jundel Mazon PHI
Shawn Putnam USA
Mike Davis USA
Stevie Moore USA
Oscar Dominguez USA
Charlie Williams USA
Dennis Hatch USA
Jeremy Jones USA
Allen Hopkins USA
Scott Frost USA
Ernesto Dominguez MEX
Kim Davenport USA
Rob Saez USA
Tony Crosby ENG
Art Wiggins USA
Tommy Najar USA

This list will be updated as more pro members join and may choose to not participate.
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BRAVO!!!!!

I sincerely HOPE that everyone on this list and many more stick to their guns and actually follow through.

This is a BIG step in the right direction for the pros and I hope that they all do truly act as one and stay with it.

Barry has put on a hell of a show for a long time and the US Open has prestige. But it's a sad sad sad story every year when the show is done and the performers don't get paid. We fans get our jollies, we get to see high level pool and these guys are there wondering if they are going to get paid if they manage to win.

Who needs that aggravation after fronting all the money to be there in the first place?
 
ccshrimper said:
I don't see a bunch of highschool dropouts making wise decisions for the future of pool. I'm not saying the pros are stupid, just not business savvy. Seeding tournaments, extending the races and whatever other stupid ideas they have about guaranteeing only the best players will cash will make sure all of the dead weight doesn't enter the tournaments.

Standing up for themselves is great. I just wish they would have done this about 5 years ago when the economy was strong because somebody else would have probably took over if Barry cancelled. I doubt anyone would take it on now and be able to put on an event even close to it or with as much payout.
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If the deck is stacked against the "dead weight" where is the prize money gonna come from? Shortstops and Amatures make this sport go round. Not the Pros. If there were no Pros the game would still exist.
 
Supposing the event takes place and the players boycott, then will the winner of the event will still be considered an US Open champion. If high profile players don't compete, it makes the event seem more like a regional event, with more local players than favorites.

If the players don't boycott because they know Barry needs extra time to make good on his promises, then nothing changes it will be the same deals of past times.

If Barry appeases the ABP, then the organization can sponsor Barry and the event.

At some point it'll whittle down to, did Barry deliver the numbers to the businesses like hotels that he said he could. Another effect is whether or not the entry fee makes a difference in helping tournament finances. Supposing 100 players don't pay he is out about 20000, I assumed entry fees are 200.
 
justnum said:
Supposing the event takes place and the players boycott, then will the winner of the event will still be considered an US Open champion. If high profile players don't compete, it makes the event seem more like a regional event, with more local players than favorites.

If the players don't boycott because they know Barry needs extra time to make good on his promises, then nothing changes it will be the same deals of past times.

If Barry appeases the ABP, then the organization can sponsor Barry and the event.

At some point it'll whittle down to, did Barry deliver the numbers to the businesses like hotels that he said he could. Another effect is whether or not the entry fee makes a difference in helping tournament finances. Supposing 100 players don't pay he is out about 20000, I assumed entry fees are 200.
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Entry is 500 (400 if you paid months ago) and I'm sure that the entire 256 field will be full, wether or not past winners and "pros" enter.
 
Pushout...That's a fact Jack! I don't see a single businessman on that BOD. I do see a bunch of poolplayers. They need a leader who is a businessman... not a poolplayer.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Pushout said:
Guess you weren't around the other times the pool players tried to organize and you didn't see the damage they did to themselves. As an old friend of mine has said often over the years, as long as they are trying to do it themselves, they're doomed to repeat. Too much greed and me, me, me.
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Excuse me UGETTHE6, but Tom is speaking historically accurately. The pros have never been able to accomplish anything, as a group (in the past 40+ yrs), because they've been "all chiefs and no indians" forever. That doesn't make it pleasant (for them or us), and I know Tom well enough to know he loves pool, and wishes the best players could actually make a living at it. That said, in his opinion, and mine...and several others here...we believe it is a mistake to try and force change with threats of a boycott. I also believe personally, that many of the players on that list will end up playing in the Open.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

UGETTHE6 said:
Just light Tom to see the negitive in everything, I would like to see you do ANYTHING for pool other then ***** like a little baby. Pool needs the players to stand up for them selves. And do something positive for the good of the sport.

What do they have to offer the US Open? How about the best players int he world who sell seats, and TV PPV. Thats what they have, they need to take hold of their own destiny as players of this game.

Just because you can't play and have no game dosn't mean you always have to piss in someones Cheerios.
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12ozCurl said:
Entry is 500 (400 if you paid months ago) and I'm sure that the entire 256 field will be full, wether or not past winners and "pros" enter.
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Since pro players plan early the revised estimate, assuming 100 pros are in the ABP, is $40,000 that Barry won't have upfront. Sure other players would fill the slots.

The estimate that a boycott will cost a tournament is $40,000 in terms of entry fees usually collected from touring pros prior to the event.

I don't know if the pros are spreading the word in person like they did on the internet about their boycott. But if they did and instructed their fans that they will not be playing in an event then it is tough to quantify. I can't estimate lost ticket sales or food sales because, sometimes the fans are just there to be at the event and sometimes they are there for specific players. I prefer not to give an estimate for that number. That estimate is more of a who is more popular then who estimate.
 
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It is easy for people who have other income to judge the pros
for simply asking for security on their monies, especially when they have
had BIG delays on getting paid from this exact tournament every time in the last few years.If the event dies then Barry can look in the mirror and see the blame.Being honest about it...I don't like Archer or Putman.
But asking them to play on a maybe is BS.
\I bet the ones talking sh1t about what the players are doing are not making a living playing pool. Walk in their shoes and then you might see the light.
Everyone else throwing their $500 entry in can afford to throw the money away.When you need that money to get you to the next event, It is
a different story.
 
Scott Lee said:
Excuse me UGETTHE6, but Tom is speaking historically accurately. The pros have never been able to accomplish anything, as a group (in the past 40+ yrs), because they've been "all chiefs and no indians" forever. That doesn't make it pleasant (for them or us), and I know Tom well enough to know he loves pool, and wishes the best players could actually make a living at it. That said, in his opinion, and mine...and several others here...we believe it is a mistake to try and force change with threats of a boycott. I also believe personally, that many of the players on that list will end up playing in the Open.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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What is your alternative to a boycott?
 
Scott Lee said:
Pushout...That's a fact Jack! I don't see a single businessman on that BOD. I do see a bunch of poolplayers. They need a leader who is a businessman... not a poolplayer.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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It's a tough call. You need someone who knows/understands the game and the players but will take the lead for the good of all. Historically, this has not been a player and the few actual business men involved have not been, shall we say, altogether above board, to say the least. I don't think I need to mention names.
I was really looking forward to going to The Open this year, the first time I've been able to go since 2001. Now, my wife and I have been talking about canceling our reservation and going to DCC instead. I guess there is still plenty of time to decide but I'll definitely put off buying a reserved seat.
 
jay helfert said:
I knew this was coming and hoped it could be averted beforehand. I'm in a difficult position here, on the one hand a TD of the Open and on the other hand a supporter of the players and professional pool. I don't have enough information to comment yet.

I can say this, a similar boycott by the Mackey led MPBA in 1994 cost the players the Los Angeles Open 9-Ball Championship. We had paid out $140,000 in prize money in 1993 and $160,000 in 1994, the year of the boycott. ALL prize money was paid IMMEDIATELY! What the players (and Mackey) wanted then was a 50-50 cut on all revenues from the event, including the gate and vendor booths. To agree to this would have been financially suicide, a 100% guarantee that I would lose money! So naturally I refused and the event went on anyway.

Funny thing was that on the last day several of the top pros of that time period (you know who you are) showed up at the Open, hat in hand, to apologize to me. They openly regretted missing the tournament and the prize money being awarded to the top finishers. Mark Tadd was the top winner, receiving $26,000! That was the last L.A. Open!

Let's hope this boycott works out a little better for them.
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There is a HUGE difference to players making unreasonable demands as you outlined above and simply wanting a guarantee that they will be paid for the places they achieve in an event.
 
Scott Lee said:
justnum...That's easy! Reread post #139...that's the answer, imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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It doesn't have an alternative, it states the players should have better management than the existing management.

That doesn't solve any problem. It doesn't solve getting a guarantee on the prize money prior to the event. And it doesn't solve getting the players to not boycott the event.

A solution is an idea that solves a problem. The way the ABP solved the Barry Behrman problem ( which is a tournament organizer that repeatedly failed to pay prize money on time or in full is to boycott the event). You might not like the solution, but it solves the problem of not being paid, by not being owed the money, players won't have to hope for checks in the mail.

A good alternative is for the players to put on a public exhibition with the money they would have spent on entry fees and travel and compete directly against the Barry B. tournament. But that is a solution that is competitive to the existing billiard tournament industry during the US Open 9 ball event. It does solve the problem of whether or not the fans get to see great matches. It doesn't solve the problem of getting prize money paid out on time and in full.

That would be different from a tournament, get all the top touring pros and let the fans into the arena and have them vote on matchups they think would be worthwhile. It wouldn't be a tournament, it would be more a thrash feast of fans promoting their favorites over other players. On talent shows I think people vote for who stays, in a pool tournament I'd vote for who can beat who. Old fans want old matches, new fans want old/new matches. But that is an entirely different idea then boycotting a tournament. It is a fan favorite event of great matchups. Sometimes younger players want to play against certain older players and it could serve as a relation builder for pool players.
 
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ABP boycott

UrackmIcrackm said:
A little reading between the lines in this thread told me that more than likely Mark G helped them write that mission statement and that Mark G did step up and offer advice that they decided not to take.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.


Just an FYI ( straight from the horses's mouth) - mark griffin did not help write any that mission statement. I did have a couple of discussions with some of the ABP and told them there is a better way than threats and boycotts.

Mark Griffin
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Kickin' Chicken said:
Well, I guess if there were ever a time that I might be able to win a US Open, this is it. :rolleyes:

Best,
Brian kc
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Ditto.

I can appreciate what these guys are doing. It's nice to see some solidarity in the ranks. Do you think that this ultimatum will mean the end of this longstanding event? These moves backfire in ways that could not be predicted. I hope it works out for them.
 
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JAM said:
I can't wait to see how the ABP will deal with Mike Zuglan's Joss Northeast 9-Ball Tour with the lack of their precious seeding.
Wouldn't it be swell if at the next Middle East tournament, three American pros show up? :smile:

All for one and one for all.
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That will be interesting.
 
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