ABP boycotts Berhman's event

Johnny...Maybe it would help if you at least knew how to spell Barry's name correctly. :rolleyes:

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

All im gonna say is these ABP guys are hardly coming across positively through these posts and im trying to be nice. One thing we know, CW doesnt have a lot of influence with them. If he did, mum would be the word.
 
that might be the dumbest thing i have ever heard. although this is not golf or basketball but imagine if Tiger Woods, Phil Mickelson and 40 more top golfers decide NOT to play in their US Open don't you think it WOULD effect the tournament. TV ratings, Sponsors, fan support. think before you act

Not the best analogy but one thing is correct in this statement: " . . . top golfers DECIDE not to play in their US Open . . ." They don't BOYCOTT their US Open. I stated previously, if the US Open has been that much of an issue with payment, just don't go. Big names not going will bring enough attention to the matter rather than releasing a bold press statement. The ABP could spend their energy better in more positive ways.

The reason this is not a great analogy is the PGA is a well-run organization. There would be no reason to boycott a tournament. When a PGA event suffers, it's because of poor attendence, lack of sponsorship, or a conflict with the larger tournaments that causes the stars to skip it (i.e most big stars skipped this week's John Deere Classic to get ready for the British Open). Hang on . . .

So maybe there's an answer for you right there, ABP. Create your own US Open. Call it whatever: American Open, US Championship, Battle of the Bad Press Releasers. Out of respect for the history of the US Open, hold your newly-formed "major championship" the week/weekend after the US Open (instead of trying to do it on the same weekend). In fact, I think I would rather see more energy spent in creating a "Grand Slam" of pool by creating four major championships, like they have in golf and tennis. It appears the trick of doing this is finding business people responsible enough for the tournament promoters and sponsors.
 
Remember that video that Johnny and Stevie Moore and Rodney Morris put out that was super unprofessional with horrible quality and sound? Boy was that some serious foreshadowing of things to come from the ABP or what?!!!
 
Jamison...I had to laugh when I read this. I stopped in to Art of Billliards, in Gainsville FL Thursday night, just after Archer and Putnam left. I spoke with a few people about the 'event' and how it went. One of the guys I was talking to (who is a local player in that room) called Archer "the other guy". He didn't even know his name...:confused: I still say Jeanette Lee has the highest recognition among poolplayers. Whether it's "Janet" Lee, Jeanette Lee, The Black Widow, "that chinese chick" or whatever...they KNOW who she is! LOL

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

They know Jeanette due to her ties with the largest league in the nation. APA had Allison, now has Jeanette, and has Eva and Dawn as League operators. The ties and advertisement APA has attached with the WPBA players in phenomenal. Maybe if the men had a tour they'd be open to some recognition as well.

The ABP needs to somehow tie in with amateur and leagues to gain recognition and support for themselves and pool. Players need to realize that those amateurs are the ones who buy cues, cases, books, tip tools, etc. from the vendors. The vendors are the ones who pay for advertisement and promote events and players. The promoters sell booths and advertisement space to run the events.

Professional poolplayers can't survive without vendors, promoters, and amateur fans. But vendors, promoters, and fans can survive without professional poolplayers. Once the ABP realizes this I think they can head in the proper direction.
 
ABP and their 15 Minutes of fame

I normally just sit back and read the posts in these forums and do not get involved and or heated about many issues; but come on guys this is ridiculous.

I feel that the ABP is using the US Open as a stepping stone to get their names in the lights. This is their 15 minutes of fame, and they are going to do everything to soak it up. This organization is a joke! This is equivalent to a temper tantrum from a five year old.

I read so much about people wanting pool to get bigger and better, but in order to do so the players have to act accordingly too. If you want to have an organization that helps the players, then do that, but leave the fans out of the business decisions and or mishaps. It’s funny that these players talk about not getting paid on time, but we know that most of them make their money after the tournaments on side hustles, and the other games they play. Also the majority of these players are such pre-madonnas that they “order” the promoters to seed them or they will walk. So it has to be their way or the highway. I think seeding is a joke. They are such candy asses that they are scared to play another big wig because it may eliminate them early. Isn’t that what this is about; becoming victorious, claiming the title and winning the money. If you are truly that good, stop making demands, and chalk up your damn cue!

Anyway, the ABP needs not bite the hand that feeds them! You may get paid a little late, but you get paid….stop whining and thinking about no one but yourself and remember the fans that are the ones that truly pay you because without us you are nothing more than a guy down the street at the pool hall that can shoot well.

The US Open has been going on for 35+ years, regardless of payment history, Barry is doing something right, and most of you ABP jackasses made a name for yourselves through the blood sweat and tears of Behrman’s work. Stop stomping your feet and start playing pool for the fans again; this is ridiculous.
 
Here here Scott. My sponsor never asked for a dime from my winnings, they asked for a picture of the trophy.

A person who backed me did ask for a portion of the winnings, big difference.

Shawn...Surely you cannot be serious? Are you saying that every pro who plays in the US Open 9Ball tournament cashes? Ummmm...NOT. Oh, and the comment about sponsors getting "money back"...sounds like you're expected to part with a share of your winnings. That's called a BACKER, not a sponsor. Sponsors, the extreme few of them out there, do not put up money or goods with the expectation of always getting cash back. They do it out of love for the sport, and respect for the players. Oh, and btw, Neil is quite a good player...not in your league, but he can play.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
 
A new member started this thread today, here's the link, and the first post : Running a club: Ideas?

Hello everyone!

I'm new to this and testing it out.

I am currently the President of my University's billiards club. We've been an established club since 2008, and although we've done a lot in such a short time (hosted tournaments, traveled to tournaments, contributed to the refinishing of 11 pool tables, etc.), I know we have a lot more potential for growth.

I would love some input. Do you have any advice for running a billiards club (I'm not clueless, just open to ideas.)? Do you have any tournament or activity advice/ideas? I'd love to find contributions (visitors, donations, etc.) from the billiards community - pros, suppliers, pool halls, the public, anyone. Do you have any suggestions for where I should look?

I want to gain support and interest from anywhere it can be found, for our club and, of course, for the sport. Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

Thank you!
Beth

The ABP could have opened here with the same post, just change the names :

Hello everyone!

WE ARE new to this and testing it out.

I am currently A CHARTER MEMBER OF THE ABP. We've been an established organization since _____, and although we've done a lot in such a short time (hosted tournaments, traveled to tournaments, contributed to the refinishing of 11 pool tables, etc.), I know we have a lot more potential for growth.

I would love some input. Do you have any advice for HOW WE MIGHT DO THINGS BETTER (WE'RE not clueless, just open to ideas.)? Do you have any tournament or activity advice/ideas? WE'D love to find contributions (visitors, donations, etc.) from the billiards community - pros, suppliers, pool halls, the public, anyone. Do you have any suggestions for where WE should look?

WE want to gain support and interest from anywhere it can be found, for our club and, of course, for the sport. Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

Thank you!
ABP PRO'S NAME HERE
I'm all for player's getting paid, and in a timely manner.

But more and more, this boycott smells like some sort of power play by a few individuals in the ABP organization.

As of now, more than half the questions that the ABPPros account was primarily opened for (by the ABP's own admission) have not been responded to. Sidestepping seems to be the word that comes to mind when it comes to some of the more serious questions. Statements such as "Some pros are still wating to be paid" coupled with "We can't comment on that right now" contradict each other.
Don't bring up something and then say you can't discuss it. No matter who's posting under the ABP account.

I hope that instead of continuing to post here, the ABP will swallow the pill, check thier egos at the door, be the "bigger man", and sit down with Barry to figure out a solution, before the damage becomes irreversible.

Mickey Qualls : An amateur with a love for the game.
 
The sad thing is that it's all over for Barry's awesome reputation as a Godsend to pool players just giving them a fortune for decades.

They can come to an agreement alright but they can't erase all the bad publicity they gave the great BB that never should have been put on the street.

Beggars can't be choosers and then throw their meal ticket under the bus!

I'm not saying Barry's rep is ruined at all. I'm just saying tainted something special that shouldn't of been and I bet it tears him up in side that this is all out there now.

The punishment didn't fit the crime guys!
 
Everything rides on the backs better players that have have proceeded us or are currently top players.Everything we have learned no matter our skill level has bled down from someone else.Top Players are the ones who make true sacrifices.

Barry Behrmans problems pale in comparison to the sacrifices players make.Continued slow payment is a travesty.This is second rate bull.If Mr Behrman fails and falls off the planet someone will be waiting in line to capture the name "US OPEN 9-Ball Championship"and that promoter will concede to all the players requests.

More power to the APB.
 
People like to compare the state of pro pool with that of poker, which happens to still be enjoying huge popularity in this country (and abroad). I would like to put a few things in perspective for the pro pool players in regard to tournament prize money being awarded in the two endeavors.

Last year the U.S. Open had a full field of 256 players at $500 per entry for a total of $128,000. Barry contributed approximately $10,000 to this amount in terms of free entries and partial entries. He also ADDED $50,000 to the purse to make the total prize money $178,000! First prize was $40,000. Ninety six of the 256 players finished in the money, with last place (65th thru 96th) receiving $750 I believe.

Now in a comparable poker tournament with 256 players paying a $500 entry, creating a $128,000 purse, a typical event would have 10% (or more) deducted by the house, to now make the purse about $115,000. Of the 256 players, maybe 27 would finish in the money and the winner might get about $35,000, with last place (19th thru 27th) paying a similar $750. Pretty tough action in my book! And that's why it's a feat just to make the money in a pro poker tourney. A very good player might cash one out of four times! So in three out of four tournaments, they are leaving with a big fat ZERO! For every poker player you hear about making a big score, there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) struggling to survive out there. They are lucky to get a backer who will give them 1/3 of their winnings. And they have to "make up" any losses incurrred first! HELLO!

So now which event is better in terms of prize money awarded to the participants? Whether they realize it or not, the pool players are getting a much better deal then the poker players in similar sized events. I hope I've made my point that they should consider themselves fortunate to have Barry Behrman's around to support professional pool and provide them with an opportunity to ply their trade and perhaps make a living.

I've always believed that to make a living in pool, a player must do more than just play tournaments, with players like Ralf Souquet, Mika Immonen, Darren Appleton and Shane Van Boening being the exception rather than the rule. A pro would do well to be a house pro at a major poolroom, perhaps drawing a salary, giving lessons, running a pro shop or making cue repairs. Perhaps some of these players think all this is beneath them. My opinion is that if you want to make a living as a professional pool player, you must "create" a niche for yourself. Many of the top pros of my generation aspired to (and ultimately did) open a poolroom of their own. Even all those years ago we were aware that trying to make a living off tournament winnings alone was a near impossible endeavor.

Saying all this, I think a successful players association is a good thing. There have been countless attempts to create one over the last forty odd years. But to threaten a boycott of one of the biggest events in pro pool is probably not the best course of action for such a fledgeling organization. I can think of several more constructive things they could do as a group that might be more beneficial to them in the long run. But no one asked me and frankly I'm not surprised about that either.
 
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Frankly, this ABPPros account should have been created when the organization was first formed.

If the ABP had been more proactive in thier stance here on this forum when the organization was first formed, instead of reactive (by creating the ABPPros account AFTER the press release), thier soapbox might have been more stable. All this ABPPros account looks like now is a knee-jerk reaction and an attempt at 'damage control'.

Ah....... 20/20 hindsight is perfect.

Right now they need to hire a good PR person (with thier own account) to handle the fallout and field questions.
 
Shawn...How is that different from ANY poolplayer, amateur or pro, when they go to play in any tournament anywhere? You pays your money, and you takes your chances. Don't like the odds?...don't play. Seems like a pretty good model to follow. FTR, I think your organization's goals are good. I just think your tactics are poorly timed.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com


Exactly. If you don't like something about an event: the format, payout, venue, scheduling, equipment they use: don't go. No need to "boycott," and put out a press release, just don't go. Equally: if you can't afford to go: don't.

No one is owed a living.

Lou Figueroa
 
I would like to put a few things in perspective for the pro pool players in regard to tournament prize money being awarded in the two endeavors.

Last year the U.S. Open had a full field of 256 players at $500 per entry for a total of $128,000. Barry contributed approximately $10,000 to this amount in terms of free entries and partial entries. He also ADDED $50,000 to the purse to make the total prize money $178,000! First prize was $40,000. Ninety six of the 256 players finished in the money, with last place receiving $750 I believe.

I hope I've made my point that they should consider themselves fortunate to have Barry Behrman's around to support professional pool and provide them with an opportunity to ply their trade and perhaps make a living.

Is Barry also paying for expenses like the convention hall out of his own pocket? I've seen other postings that put this tab for these various expenses at 75-150K.

The ABP players are shooting themselves in the foot with this boycott of the US Open. Instead of the ABP players thanking Barry for everything he's done for them, they are rewarding him with a boycott. If the ABP players persist with this counterproductive boycott, Barry could easily decide not to add any money into next year's Open...or perhaps cancel it altogether. Maybe it's the ABP that should be boycotted?

IMO, the ABP needs to rethink its objectives and how to achieve them.
 
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As of now, more than half the questions that the ABPPros account was primarily opened for (by the ABP's own admission) have not been responded to. Sidestepping seems to be the word that comes to mind when it comes to some of the more serious questions. Statements such as "Some pros are still wating to be paid" coupled with "We can't comment on that right now" contradict each other.
Don't bring up something and then say you can't discuss it. No matter who's posting under the ABP account.


There is a reason why professional organizations have a spokesman. (That would go all the way up to the White House.)

The guy who, for better or worse, speaks for the whole crew so that there are no conflicting messages when it comes to the "official" word from the organization.

The other thing most professional organizations do before they push that guy out onto the gang plank, when there is an issue of any magnitude at hand, is to sit around and figure out what the logical questions that guy is going to be asked and figure out the answers beforehand.

Works much better that way ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
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Is Barry also paying for expenses like the convention hall out of his own pocket? I've seen other postings that put this tab for these various expenses at 75-150K.

The ABP players are shooting themselves in the foot with this boycott of the US Open. Instead of the ABP players thanking Barry for everything he's done for them, they are rewarding him with a boycott. Maybe it's the ABP that should be boycotted?

IMO, the ABP needs to rethink its objectives and how to achieve them.

I know that Barry does pay for the Convention Center expenses. In fact, in 2003 when the entire area lost power due to Tropical Storm Isabel, Barry managed -- AT HIS OWN EXPENSE -- get one of the few generators in the area to power up the Convention Center to let the show go on.

Also, another year -- can't remember which -- it was raining cats and dogs, and Barry -- again, AT HIS OWN EXPENSE -- had a tent-like structure delivered outside of the front entrance to the Convention Center, so the smokers could smoke in comfort. :cool:
 
There is a reason why professional organizations have a spokesman. (That would go all the way up to the White House.)

The guy who, for better or worse, speaks for the whole crew so that there are no conflicting messages when it comes to the "official" word from the organization.

The other thing most professional organizations do before they push that guy out onto the gang plank, when there is an issue of any magnitude at hand, is to sit around and figure out what the logical questions that guy is going to be asked and figure out the answers beforehand.

Works much better that way ;-)

Lou Figueroa

That is the thing that has amazed me since this whole thing started... the complete lack of direction and organization of the players.

There should NEVER have been and ABP Pros account here on AZB, with god knows who posting whatever, whenever, by whomever. If a player wanted to make a statement, he should have his own account, and clearly state "I'm not speaking for the organization, but this is how I feel."

One person should have been making official public statements for the organization. And they should have made themselves available after the boycott was released, at a specified time, to answer questions. Both from whatever media actually cares to cover this stuff (and there are a few official magazines and websites like this one) and here on the forums.

It was all done very un-professionally. Which speaks volumes for a group that wants to be considered "pro's"...

(This rant has nothing to do with the issues themselves. I do not know enough of the real specifics to make a qualified opinion on who is "right". I think, given what has been presented, that there is room for compromise, but again, I don't know the real deal.)
 
"The US Open is the greatest and most prestigious event on American soil. I am truly sorry we cannot attend this event. But we have an obligation to protect all players now and in the future. I am hopeful in the future all things will be worked out so all players can participate in all great and safe tournaments." - Johnny Archer, President of the ABP.
Perhaps the ABP or Johnny Archer would like to respond to Barry's statement (from July 7) below:


Shannon and I do not see how boycotting an event that is merely here for the players and fans of pool, as it is not a cash cow for us, is benefiting this sport or the fans who want to watch the players. I am not a wealthy man; in fact I too like some of the players am trying to simply make ends. However, I am doing everything in my power to strengthen the industry of pool. I cannot allow the U.S. Open to be threatened by individuals whom will not return a call or email. In fact, I personally called Johnny Archer 15-20 times in the past couple of weeks, and sent many emails to discuss this year's event, and not once did he answer or return any of my attempts. What kind of leader is this? I was never given the chance to acknowledge their demands, which I along with my daughter believe is completely unfair and simply "dirty pool." This is not a step in the right direction, Mr. Archer as the President, should be attempting to work with promoters instead of shutting them out, or else pool as we know it will no longer exist. I have been informed that some members of the ABP were demanding to be seeded into other events, and many made threats to walk if they were not. Promoters cannot give into bullies.

Here is Barry's full statement made to AZB: http://www.azbilliards.com/2000storya.php?storynum=8892
 
People like to compare the state of pro pool with that of poker, which happens to still be enjoying huge popularity in this country (and abroad). I would like to put a few things in perspective for the pro pool players in regard to tournament prize money being awarded in the two endeavors.

Last year the U.S. Open had a full field of 256 players at $500 per entry for a total of $128,000. Barry contributed approximately $10,000 to this amount in terms of free entries and partial entries. He also ADDED $50,000 to the purse to make the total prize money $178,000! First prize was $40,000. Ninety six of the 256 players finished in the money, with last place (65th thru 96th) receiving $750 I believe.

Now in a comparable poker tournament with 256 players paying a $500 entry, creating a $128,000 purse, a typical event would have 10% (or more) deducted by the house, to now make the purse about $115,000. Of the 256 players, maybe 27 would finish in the money and the winner might get about $35,000, with last place (19th thru 27th) paying a similar $750. Pretty tough action in my book! And that's why it's a feat just to make the money in a pro poker tourney. A very good player might cash one out of four times! So in three out of four tournaments, they are leaving with a big fat ZERO! For every poker player you hear about making a big score, there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) struggling to survive out there. They are lucky to get a backer who will give them 1/3 of their winnings. And they have to "make up" any losses incurrred first! HELLO!

So now which event is better in terms of prize money awarded to the participants? Whether they realize it or not, the pool players are getting a much better deal then the poker players in similar sized events. I hope I've made my point that they should consider themselves fortunate to have Barry Behrman's around to support professional pool and provide them with an opportunity to ply their trade and perhaps make a living.

I've always believed that to make a living in pool, a player must do more than just play tournaments, with players like Ralf Souquet, Mika Immonen, Darren Appleton and Shane Van Boening being the exception rather than the rule. A pro would do well to be a house pro at a major poolroom, perhaps drawing a salary, giving lessons, running a pro shop or making cue repairs. Perhaps some of these players think all this is beneath them. My opinion is that if you want to make a living as a professional pool player, you must "create" a niche for yourself. Many of the top pros of my generation aspired to (and ultimately did) open a poolroom of their own. Even all those years ago we were aware that trying to make a living off tournament winnings alone was a near impossible endeavor.

Saying all this, I think a successful players association is a good thing. There have been countless attempts to create one over the last forty odd years. But to threaten a boycott of one of the biggest events in pro pool is probably not the best course of action for such a fledgeling organization. I can think of several more constructive things they could do as a group that might be more beneficial to them in the long run. But no one asked me and frankly I'm not surprised about that either.

Great post Jay:D.
 
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