should I feel bad?

[enzo]

what are you talking about ? According to the OP and some others, if you don't pay attention to my fouls, there is NO foul. The rules say you cannot double hit the cue ball, it says you have to hit a rail, also says you have to hit your own ball first.

But playing by the OP's "rules" I ain't gotta say sh*t if nobody sees me...correct ?

The OP for all intent and purposes, committed a foul, this is a fact that is not in question. It just was not seen by his opponent. I've done the same thing by pushing the balls into a favorable position for me. And technically, it is not even a foul if I move other object balls that do not or would not affect the path of the cb, and the opponent only gets to decide to leave them in the current position or move them back...its his call. He doesn't even get bih for the misdeed (if caught). THe balls just go back where they were, so basically, it is risk free for me...

But if he NO see, he NO get, correct ?

i guess the question is.... do you think you would be following the rules of pool if you purposefully moved all the balls in a hole and "won" the game. i dont think you would..... i think we are arguing different points.... but to be hinest, i think yours is ludicrous (hope not to offend u too much.... but it is ludicrous ).

 

[mincho]

the reality of life is that whether or not you call that foul will depend on what stakes you're playing for . As the jeopardy of loss increases ,the probability of calling your own foul decreases [...]

Took the words out of my mouth. If you're playing in a league match and call your own foul and feel proud of yourself, think if you're in a tournament where a ball in hand for your opponent (who may not be as honest in calling fouls) could result in losing the next few racks and the match.

 

[enzo]

what are you talking about ? According to the OP and some others, if you don't pay attention to my fouls, there is NO foul. The rules say you cannot double hit the cue ball, it says you have to hit a rail, also says you have to hit your own ball first.

But playing by the OP's "rules" I ain't gotta say sh*t if nobody sees me...correct ?

The OP for all intent and purposes, committed a foul, this is a fact that is not in question. It just was not seen by his opponent. I've done the same thing by pushing the balls into a favorable position for me. And technically, it is not even a foul if I move other object balls that do not or would not affect the path of the cb, and the opponent only gets to decide to leave them in the current position or move them back...its his call. He doesn't even get bih for the misdeed (if caught). THe balls just go back where they were, so basically, it is risk free for me...

But if he NO see, he NO get, correct ?

im not sure what you are saying now vs before. are you saying you purposefully push balls around the table and just pretty much win the game with your hands? if you do anything like that, no, for me id just tell my opponent i moved all the balls around and i should lose the game. haha.

if you are saying you move balls, accidentally, while your opponent is away. like i have been saying the whole time, just follow the rules. im actually not sure if you are required to tell opponent of moved balls. for me, id just tell him i moved a ball and he could move it back. im not sure im answering your question, ha.

 

[KRJ]

Hmmmm

im not sure what you are saying now vs before. are you saying you purposefully push balls around the table and just pretty much win the game with your hands? if you do anything like that, no, for me id just tell my opponent i moved all the balls around and i should lose the game. haha.

if you are saying you move balls, accidentally, while your opponent is away. like i have been saying the whole time, just follow the rules. im actually not sure if you are required to tell opponent of moved balls. for me, id just tell him i moved a ball and he could move it back. im not sure im answering your question, ha.

whats the difference. If I accidently moved balls that happened to benefit me, please explain why I would need to tell my opponent. If you double hit the cueball, you won't tell me but I gotta tell you if I move a few of my balls by accident? Basically, you only cheat a little, not a lot? Hmmm, now I understand.....

 

[KRJ]

hmmmm

i guess the question is.... do you think you would be following the rules of pool if you purposefully moved all the balls in a hole and "won" the game. i dont think you would..... i think we are arguing different points.... but to be hinest, i think yours is ludicrous (hope not to offend u too much.... but it is ludicrous ).

Of course I never said move all the balls into a hole and "win" the game. But what if I move a few balls that assist me. No difference and at all and an accurate analogy. If someone does not call a foul when they hit the cue ball accidently then why would they all of sudden develop a case of integrity and tell you about some balls they moved on the table while you where getting your beer from the waitress??

 

[Scott Lee]

mincho...The situation makes no difference to me. If I fouled, whether my opponent saw it or not, even if I am playing in the finals of the US Open...I am still going to call it...even if it costs me the match/tournament. It's called integrity. Either you have it...or you don't. There are some pros out there who feel the same way.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Took the words out of my mouth. If you're playing in a league match and call your own foul and feel proud of yourself, think if you're in a tournament where a ball in hand for your opponent (who may not be as honest in calling fouls) could result in losing the next few racks and the match.

 

[enzo]

Of course I never said move all the balls into a hole and "win" the game. But what if I move a few balls that assist me. No difference and at all and an accurate analogy. If someone does not call a foul when they hit the cue ball accidently then why would they all of sudden develop a case of integrity and tell you about some balls they moved on the table while you where getting your beer from the waitress??

no difference at all!!? well, first of all, do you move the balls purposefully? if yes, then i would tell my opponent he won that game. if no, then i would personally ask my opponent if he wants to move them back. OR, as i was saying, the same applies here, if the rules say nothing about his, then the guy would have to ask you if you fouled when he got back. and id ve compelled to say yeah i touched a ball here or whatever. i mean its the same as the other fouls essentially.

i think you are confusiong things personally. what exactly do you think is wrong with me, a player, going back to the chair after a foul?? if a player asks me if i fouled (and i did), id say yes. so you see a big problem with this? what is the problem exactly? do you think the other player should not have to ask if he didnt watch the shot? i think these are the issues, and i dont think you have compelling answers to those questions.

the only thing i dont like here are the people that contend they are better for calling fouls. that is just not the truth, and frankly anybody who says that is doing a diservice and should not be able to call themseleves a teacher (yes im talking to one guy). i am not stating opinions, but what the rules tell one to do. nobody is better or has more integrity for calling fouls on themselves.... you can think that, but its not true and you should know the truth. it is only true in your own mind-- and you are only pumping yourself up for god knows what reason. post #52 (kitchen chicken) has the exact right view on this, seriously, study it for the sake of other players not having to endure self serving bs... and to take yourselves off that high horse, as you got up there only in your own mind and on false pretenses anyway.

 

[enzo]

well, if the whole team is absent, not paying attn., doing shots, getting lap dances, whatever, just rake all the balls in a say you won then. Why "babysit" as you say. Get the match over with, say you ran X amount of racks, and they missed it! Someone unwilling to do something them self complaining about others not doing something for them self....this is FUNNY! It may just be their responsibility to call fouls on their opponents according to so and so league rules....GREAT! Cheat all you want, and justify it by saying they should watch your every move.

chicago, you said "BINGO" to this post, which is a very dubious position.

 

[TXsouthpaw]

I was playing in my scotch doubles summer league last night and my

partner had left me hooked to where i had to kick at one of our balls but

clearly hit the other teams ball first and fouled but i didnt say any thing

and just went and sat in my chair and waited for the other team to shoot.

I guess they were to busy talking to eachother and they didnt notice the

foul or even care to ask if it was a foul and they just shot. Should I have

said something since they werent paying attention or did what i did and

just not say anything?

What would you have done?

Thanks

Depends on if I like the guy or not. Aholes dont give any consideration and therefore dont get any. I just feel their should be some benifits to being a nice guy. So what i do depends on who im playing.

 

[KRJ]

hmmm

no difference at all!!? well, first of all, do you move the balls purposefully? if yes, then i would tell my opponent he won that game. if no, then i would personally ask my opponent if he wants to move them back. OR, as i was saying, the same applies here, if the rules say nothing about his, then the guy would have to ask you if you fouled when he got back. and id ve compelled to say yeah i touched a ball here or whatever. i mean its the same as the other fouls essentially.

i think you are confusiong things personally. what exactly do you think is wrong with me, a player, going back to the chair after a foul?? if a player asks me if i fouled (and i did), id say yes. so you see a big problem with this? what is the problem exactly? do you think the other player should not have to ask if he didnt watch the shot? i think these are the issues, and i dont think you have compelling answers to those questions.

.

Ok, please tell what is wrong with if somebody accidently bumps some balls and they don't tell you about it. Are they cheating, does the rules say anything that they must in fact tell you, or do the rules only say they must give you the option to put them back in the previous position?

And those that have integrity like Scott Lee and many others here are NOT on their high horse as you say, but it only appears that way to you because you have sunk so low in the muck, that everyone appears just a few notches above yourself. You can cheat all you want, and you may win a lot of matches doing so, but a winner you will never be. And that is a fact jack.

 

[KRJ]

chicago, you said "BINGO" to this post, which is a very dubious position.

Yep, dubous indeed, but unfortunately it is your exact position you have taken. How funny is that ??

 

[trustyrusty]

chicago, you said "BINGO" to this post, which is a very dubious position.

well, I apparently have never studied the rulebook of every league and their positions on fouls. I am in NO WAY trying to be dubious, and think it's pretty obvious that I think not letting your opponent know you fouled - EVEN IF THEY DIDN'T SEE IT - is a little dubious (for the shooter who fouled).

I am not saying you are a bad person for not letting them know, I'm saying I couldn't take a seat and not say a thing and watch them shoot the ball without knowing they have BIH. I just couldn't do it; within the RULES or not. Now that I see others do not feel the same way I do about that kind of situation, I see it might be best to ALWAYS ask if I have BIH whenever I come to the table....

 

[OneIron]

mincho...The situation makes no difference to me. If I fouled, whether my opponent saw it or not, even if I am playing in the finals of the US Open...I am still going to call it...even if it costs me the match/tournament. It's called integrity. Either you have it...or you don't. There are some pros out there who feel the same way.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Well said, Scott. I feel exactly the same way.

 

[justadub]

mincho...The situation makes no difference to me. If I fouled, whether my opponent saw it or not, even if I am playing in the finals of the US Open...I am still going to call it...even if it costs me the match/tournament. It's called integrity. Either you have it...or you don't. There are some pros out there who feel the same way.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

This is the right way to play.

In my opinion, enzo., My opinion. I have to look at myself in the mirror, and if I know I didn't let my opponent know that I had fouled, I would feel poorly about how I conducted myself.

Integrity is indeed the word that applies, Scott. If you have to have it explained to you, it won't matter.

No issue, you won't hear me complain because you feel the way you do, enzo. After all, as you have so often pointed out, it's not in the rules....

 

[PaulieB]

To torgy2 : you were in a league situation, where an entire team was supposed to be paying attention, at the very least your opponent was supposed to be paying attention, and all you did was sit down. I see nothing wrong with your sitting down and no longer paying attention after their entire team didn't bother paying attention. You didn't lie, you didn't get up and keep shooting like there was no foul, you didn't answer their question regarding a foul incorrectly (since they never asked), you just sat down as the rules actually suggest.

To ChicagoRJ: You just can't keep mixing posts about accidentally committing a foul during a shot and then sitting down vs. PURPOSEFULLY moving your object balls during a shot, or PURPOSEFULLY committing a foul and then sitting down. Obviously, trying to cheat and trying to get away with it is completely different than trying to hit a legal shot, accidentally committing a foul, and then sitting down. In the original post, it sounds as if the original poster could of just kept shooting if he wanted to cheat as blatantly as you implied this situation is, but of course he didn't. This isn't a one on one match, he had 5 or 6 people that SHOULD of been paying attention, and all he did was sit down after his shot. Tell me where in the rule books it says that sitting down after your shot is some sort of horrible act?

Honestly, if my entire opponents team was so completely not paying any attention to the match, I wouldn't cheat, but I wouldn't pay attention for them either. That's basically what it boils down to ... they have 6 people that can't bother to pay attention for their own team, yet everyone here is saying that the shooter should act as the 7th player and pay attention for them while they do tequila shots? F that!

 

[enzo]

I'm not even bothering to read this thread. I feel the same way justadub does. You only cheat yourself when you play the "snooze you lose" card, imo. The day I have to cheat to win a pool game, is the day I'll hang up my cue...for good.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

This is my last word on this.... but this above post sums it up. Scott has called people "cheaters" that have simply done what the rules in pool compel you to do, go sit down after you foul. Thats it! over.... he has called people "cheaters" that have just followed the rules!! they are not cheaters, and to falsely call a person that and call yourself a pool instructor at the same time is an outrage to me. where is your integrity? you have misinformed people right here in writing. here is what you SHOULD be writing in this thread, as an instructor:

i believe if you foul, you should inform your opponent. however, if a player simpy sits down in his chair after a foul, and doesn't go out of his way to inform his opponent of his foul, that should not be looked down upon in any way as this is what the rules state you should do (the rule actually states an outgoing player is not supposed to touch the cb too, which i think is of interest here). however, i strongly feel calling all your fouls is the right thing to do-- yet not necessarily any better or worse from a sportsmanship standpoint with respect to the rules of billiards. Thats all you have to say, i would have no problem with that.... but you have to falsely put yourself above others-- which is total bs.

these words cheating and integrity dont come into play here. again, the analogy would be if i play c players, and i help them during their matches.... i cant say "these other guys dont help the c players, they play without integrity, i would never wanna take advantage of a c player like that." you cant really say that, it would just be his choice to help the c players, no better or worse than anybody else's actions. you cant just all the sudden come out of nowhere and say the way you do things has more integrity than others, when others are following the rules to a T, in fact there may be less integrity your way, because all you are trying to do is make yourself look good, that is obvious.

one other thing, i'm not even really saying that you should not inform your opponent every time you foul, just that it is simply an option for you according to the rules and situation-- again, no better or worse than the path other people have posted here. THE REASON I THINK THIS DISCUSSION IS SO IMPORTANT, AND THAT IT IS VERY DELETERIOUS TO STATE POORLY FORMED OPINIONS ON THIS, IS BECAUSE PEOPLE FORM OPINIONS OF POOL PLAYERS BASED ON THIS STUFF. A GUY FOULS, GOES AND SITS DOWN, AND NOW HIS OPPONENT THINKS HE'S TRYING TO CHEAT! WELL, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO TOUCH THE CB AFTER A FOUL IF YOU'RE OUTGOING-- HE PROBABLY JUST THOUGHT YOU SAW IT AND WILL GET IT, OR WILL TELL YOU IF YOU ASK. DON'T ASSUME BAD INTENTIONS! BUT THE OPINIONS IN THIS THREAD MAKE PEOPLE ASSUME BAD INTENTIONS, WHICH IS BAD FOR POOL, AND INSTRUCTORS SHOULD BE CASTIGATED FOR STATING SUCH OPINIONS.

as to chicago's posts.... you posted earlier "BINGO" to a guy that said if you sweep all the balls in the holes, and win as many games as you wanted, it should be fine if the guy doesnt see. that was your analogy. haha, how do you expect me to even address you any more after that, its all there in writing.

 

[bigwillo]

I was playing in my scotch doubles summer league last night and my

partner had left me hooked to where i had to kick at one of our balls but

clearly hit the other teams ball first and fouled but i didnt say any thing

and just went and sat in my chair and waited for the other team to shoot.

I guess they were to busy talking to eachother and they didnt notice the

foul or even care to ask if it was a foul and they just shot. Should I have

said something since they werent paying attention or did what i did and

just not say anything?

What would you have done?

Thanks

A foul is a foul regardless if they saw it or not. I always call it.

 

[OneIron]

How about an analogy to golf, the " successful" sport:

"Imagine standing on the edge of achieving your life's dream. You make a small mistake that will cost you your dream -- but if you don't say anything, you might just get away with it. Would you own up to the mistake, or would you keep quiet and hope for the best?
Brian Davis isn't the best-known name in golf -- or even the hundredth-best-known -- but after Sunday, he ought to move up the list a few notches. Davis was facing Jim Furyk in a playoff at the Verizon Heritage, and was trying to notch his first-ever PGA Tour win.
Davis's approach shot on the first hole of the playoff bounced off the green and nestled in among some weeds. (You can see the gunk he was hitting out of in that shot above.) When Davis tried to punch the ball up onto the green, his club may have grazed a stray weed on his backswing.
So what's the big deal? This: hitting any material around your ball during your backswing constitutes a violation of the rule against moving loose impediments, and is an immediate two-stroke penalty. And in a playoff, that means, in effect, game over.
Okay, you can think that's a silly penalty or whatever, but that's not the point of this story. The point is that Davis actually called the violation on himself.
"It was one of those things I thought I saw movement out of the corner of my eye," Davis said. "And I thought we’d check on TV, and indeed there was movement." Immediately after the shot, Davis called over a rules official, who conferred with television replays and confirmed the movement -- but movement which was only visible on slow-motion. Unbelievable.
As soon as the replays confirmed the violation, Davis conceded the victory to Furyk, who was somewhat stunned -- but, make no mistake, grateful for the win.
"To have the tournament come down that way is definitely not the way I wanted to win," Furyk said. "It’s obviously a tough loss for him and I respect and admire what he did."
Furyk took home* $1.03 million for the win. Davis won't exactly have to beg for change to get a ride home; he won $615,000 for second place. And he may have won much more than that by taking the honorable route.
To be sure, this isn't quite in the same category as J.P. Hayes, the golfer who disqualified himself from qualifying school after learning -- in his hotel room, all alone -- that he had played a nonqualifying ball; or Adam Van Houten, who cost his team an Ohio state title when he admitted signing an incorrect scorecard.* For starters, Davis's shot was on television, and while he could have "not noticed" the movement, the TV cameras still did, and someone might have called him on it later on.
But the bigger deal is this -- the guy gave away a chance at winning his first-ever PGA Tour event because he knew that in golf, honesty is more important than victory. It's a tough lesson to learn, but here's hoping he gets accolades -- and, perhaps, some sponsorship deals -- that more than make up for the victory he surrendered".

 

[chefjeff]

I'll tell him that it was a foul or if he isn't paying attention I'll place the CB on a piece of chalk and return to my chair. Sometimes I just do not want to speak to my opponent especially after a foul.

I prefer to just throw it down a pocket.

Yes, call the foul...unless you think cheating is the same as actually winning.

Jeff Livingston

 

[chefjeff]

It depends. In my BCA league you must watch the table. If your opponent fouls, it is up to you to spot it. If you don't he has no obligation to tell you anything. I haven't played anything but BCA league, and that is the rule. Everyone is aware of this rule, so people watch their matches very closely.
With that said, if I was playing in more casual league, or for that matter playing an individual one on one, I would be honest, and hand him the ball.

Does one have to be rich to be honest?

Jeff Livingston